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EU4 - Development Diary - 21st of February 2017

Hello everyone. Tuesday has crept up on us once again which means it's time to armour up, grab my sword and jump back into the Thunderdome that is the Developer multiplayer, but before that, we've got a new Dev Diary!

Today we'll take a closer look at the much speculated Tributary States mechanic from the upcoming expansion. It's been fun reading the comments of this thread and see what the community has been suspecting we've put in the game. I'll be tackling that here

Getting straight to the meat of it, Tributary is a new subject type in Europa Universalis IV available for Nations in the Eastern Religion Group. Tributaries can be established both through warfare and through diplomacy and, while large nations are certainly not going to want to become your tributary willingly, through winning war you can force a nation of any size to bend the knee and pay up.

When you have established a nation as your Tributary, you will receive and annual tribute from them. You as their overlord are able to instruct them what to send, from Money, Administrative Power, Diplo Power, Military Power and Manpower. each year of successful tribute mutually raises trust between the nations. If you are the benevolent type of player, you can even tell them that no tribute is necessary. I am not a benevolent Overlord.


eu4_110.png


Here is Ming with their mighty collection of Tributaries. Along with demanding annual tribute, there are some new interactions available exclusively for nations with tributaries (artwork for them not yet in, so don't mind the placeholders):


  • Bestow Gifts: send subject 0.5 of target’s yearly income,
  • Send additional troops: sent 2 years of subject’s manpower,
  • Demand artifacts: Take 5 prestige from subject,
  • Demand additional tribute: take 0.25 years of target’s income from target
these interactions will also affect the subjects' liberty desire, which brings us to an important point, what does it mean to be a tributary. For what purpose does a nation bend their knee to the tax collector?

Although Tributaries are subjects, they are the most free of any type of subject. They may make their own allies, subjects and foreign policy. They will not follow their overlord into wars or any of the usual subject behavior. Instead, they will be given protection. If another nation who is not also a tributary to the same overlord attacks them, their Overlord will be called to arms. The Overlord may accept or decline although, depending on the relationship and trust between the Overlord and Tributary. Declining will have ill effects on their relationship with their tributaries.

The main cause of relations going south is due to the subject refusing to give tribute. If liberty desire grows too high, caused by the usual modifiers from relative strength, relations etc, Tributaries may start thinking they would be better off keeping their hard-earned manpower, money or Power, and so refuse to give tribute. Eventually, this can lead to the Tributary relationship breaking down, so keep and eye on your subjects and don't demand too much additional Tribute.

Speaking of milking nations dry, it seemed only natural to give Hordes the ability to have tributaries. I've been having an absolute ball with my favourite nation keeping the Horde economy turning through my horseback tributary collectors.

eu4_111.png



Tributary States are a paid feature in the upcoming yet-unnamed expansion, and are available for Hordes and for nations in the Eastern Religion Group (Shinto, Confucian, Three Buddhists) and are additionally available for any nation who is the Emperor of China.

What is the Emperor of China, you ask?

We'll find that out next week.
 
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How does aggressive expansion calculate into tributaries? Will they get reduced AE when I conquer their neighbours and thus ultimately want to break free, even if I otherwise maintain good relations with them?
 
Tributary is a new subject type in Europa Universalis IV available for Nations in the Eastern Religion Group.
I'm glad that you also allowed hordes to have it. And good luck in the thunderdome later; will be interesting to see whether you manage to avoid getting backstabbed by StarNan.
Here is Ming with their mighty collection of Tributaries. Along with demanding annual tribute, there are some new interactions available exclusively for nations with tributaries (artwork for them not yet in, so don't mind the placeholders):
Are the numbers still completely in the wind or is there a rough estimate of how much you get as a function of tributary size?

What is the Emperor of China, you ask?

We'll find that out next week.
Or for the impatient you can check the thread Jake linked. I think we've nailed most of the Emperor of China mechanic from the MP streams.
There for instance are 5 reforms (of which three can be seen on the screen). They appear to be able to be taken in any order you like, albeit the last one needs the others passed. The last one gives +1 adm.
Mandate%20of%20heaven.png
 
I'd say Utopia will be released before this, since it was already announced a while ago. This EU4 expansion is still unannounced.
Good point.
 
As Tributaries do not fight for independence (They can and will cancel tributary payments if they remain at high liberty desire and skimp on rent for too long) and so do not get "support" for independence
Will the overlord get a casus belli or any sort of effect otherwise (like -prestige or -dip rep) when a subject chooses to stop subscribing to DDRJake on Twitch being a tributary?
 
This expansion is going to be releasing before Utopia. Utopia is pretty much in alpha right now.
 
What if a tributary gets attacked? For example, the Chinese sent troops to Korea when the Japanese attacked it in the Imjin war.
I mean, can you just send troops and not get called into a war?
 
How would you suggest we change it?
I am not sure I think creating an actual tributary relationship for this incident would make sense.

The problem is - event doesn't make sense. This incident shouldn't have options, cause Baikov was ordered not to participate in any rites that could lead to loss of prestige or could threaten sovereignty of Russia. He should meet Emperor of Qing in person.
Because Baikov refused to execute kowtow (because his tsar ordered so) he was "imprisoned" and released only after 6 months.
Why Baikov was sent? Russia wanted to stop Manchurian expansion in parts of Outer Manchuria which were settled by Russians. There were fights near Amur River. So, he was sent to settle matter diplomatically - with gifts and letter from tsar.
Also this men left his recordings about travel to China through Siberia with very accurate description, which were translated into other languages (iirc French and German).
There is also information that his main task (at that moment he was living in Tobolsk) was to establish caravan routes with China, but, later, he was used as diplomat.

Another point - he wasn't first Russian who went there. First one was Ivan Petlin in 1618 who was visitor and reached Pekin. He was just scouting what this "new" state was.
Next one was cossack Emelyan Vershinin in 1641 who visited China with trade caravan (there are claims that he delivered letter from last Ming emperor Zhou Youjian).
After him were Seitkul Ablin and Peter Jarizhkin in 1653. They were sent by Baikov from Tobolsk with trade caravan and reached Pekin.
Only after those people Baikov visited China in 1654.
So there was information about rites at Chinese court - mostly provided by Petlin, cause Chinese sources call him "ambassador"(he wasn't) and he couldn't get audience at Emperor's court cause didn't have gifts.
 
Would it be possible in the future to reflect Castile's relationship with Granada as a tributary? Granada did pay Castile to survive for a while as they had access to the Sub-Saharan gold trade. After Portugal managed to get access, this rendered Granada useless and where then invaded. The Ottomans also had its nearby neighbors in Anatolia as tributary states.
 
@DDRJake
archduchy of austria between (1533-1606), republic of venice (as long as they have ioanian islands), russian tsardom between (1571-1701) were tributary states of the ottoman empire. also safavids, poland and morocco paid tributes to the ottoman empire time to time.

This ingame mechanic would not fit that historical situation. The 10% income you can demand through war is more suitable for this. There's also a difference between being tributary and paying off an aggressor from time to time.

IMHO Muscovy however should start as a tributary of Great Horde. In theory shouldn't Ashikaga Shogunate also start as a tributary of Ming? I recall having read they were nominally.
 
Will the overlord get a casus belli or any sort of effect otherwise (like -prestige or -dip rep) when a subject chooses to stop subscribing to DDRJake on Twitch being a tributary?
In the dev MP Ming attacked some countries due to them refusing to pay tribute. IIRC Johan and Chris talked about them having some kind of tribute CB.
 
What if a tributary gets attacked? For example, the Chinese sent troops to Korea when the Japanese attacked it in the Imjin war.
I mean, can you just send troops and not get called into a war?


In my point of view Ming definately participated in Imjin war. They sent about the same(or more in some point of view) troops as Joseon and they had their own general to control their army and most of the generals didn't followed Korea general or King's order. Ming actively tried to make truce all by them self. Even Japan's casus beli at the first place was "Give us the road to attack Ming".


Exploiting manpower from tributary can be justified with examples such as "Battle of Sarhu" however.
 
Buuuut Muscovy was paying tribute until 1471... And then also started to pay Crimea up until 1700 in return for their assistance vs other hordes and to safeguard south borders.
That was less "you are our overlord and you will protect us" and more "we don't want you raiding our lands so just take some money"