EU4 - Development Diary - 17th March 2016

[Skykiller]

Question out of curiosity:

Say Switzerland is at war with Milan. I as France loan 1 army to Switzerland and 1 army to Milan, will french condottieri end up fighting french condottieri?

I would say why not. During History, in certain wars, you could have Swiss fighting against each other on the battlefield because they were hired by different countries.

 

[Panzerschiffe]

Loaning out troops to the AI...

Loaning money to the AI was something that was essentially completely removed because the AI just couldn't handle it. I just have this feeling this will not end well and will be too easy for the player to abuse. Either way, it seems win win for the player.

 

[Renen]

"Some questions though:
* Is there something in place to prevent you from playing both sides of a war at the same time?"

The one question that can be answered with certainty. There's nothing to prevent you from playing both sides. In fact, doing so earns you an achievement.

 

[Zak Preston]

@DDRJake

1. will Condottieri inherit donor's modifiers like marale, discipline or CA or they will get recipient's ones?
2. Who will pay for actual maintenance and reinforcements.
3. Will those Condotierries count towards recipient's FL?

 

[Renen]

Question out of curiosity:

Say Switzerland is at war with Milan. I as France loan 1 army to Switzerland and 1 army to Milan, will french condottieri end up fighting french condottieri?

Also: out of whose manpower are losses replenished?

Err... The troops stay yours except they act as if you are at war with whomever the one you rented them to is at war with. Basically it's like you accepted a call to arms, except only the condottieri are made aware of the war. You can also be on both sides of the war. So the stack that is rented to side A can fight side B, and stack rented to side B can fight side A. They are both yours though so if they meet solo nothing happens. I do wonder what happens if side A and B fight, while both of the stacks join the ongoing battle

 

[MAHak]

"Some questions though:
* Is there something in place to prevent you from playing both sides of a war at the same time?"

The one question that can be answered with certainty. There's nothing to prevent you from playing both sides. In fact, doing so earns you an achievement.

Not quite sure about that, it could be interpreted as "hire your army out to one side", hiring to both sides at once is prohibited, "then when the contract is up you hire your army to the other side"

 

[Florryworry__]

Any real world example for this idea? I know that Eu4 isn't very historical accurate (and most of his mechanics even less...), but I think that using other name instead if condotteri (who were basically mercenaries) would be more appropriate

Oh plenty mostly in Italy hence the name but il see if i can find some other fitting examples in the period.
Saying eu4 isnt very historically accurate is the same as saying plastic toy soldiers dont fight very well tho. Its symbolism and abstractions

 

[winddy]

Terrible post, preorder canceled.

Um...What? Did you intend to post something like that I wonder?
Anyway I rarely see DLC as a pre-order dlc. Though I think you should not do it.

 

[winddy]

Lots of good questions coming in, I'll elaborate on them shortly.

Hey hi. Will this feature requires any idea or something? And like some people said, is it available to Europe only? I personally think that it should have this feature to other non-European nations but change the name or sort.

Also, what will happen if those soldiers shattered? Will it automatically cancel this feature or will they back-up or will permanent dead?
And will this feature allows to sells ship to be a mercenary to other nation? I can't imagine how fun it will be if I can export mercenary ships!

 

[Homusubi]

I don't mind the concept, but EUIV already has enough Italians, especially after 1.12. The world outside Italy needs some attention....

 

[MmatoO2]

It seems like a historically accurate feature that should help, well, always.
It also shouldn't necessarily hurt diplomatic relationship with the enemies (on the sharp receiving edge of condottieri) unless they have strong spy networks in the country hiring condottieri or the country lending out condottieri - how else are they going to find out that a fair chunk of Byzantines or Provence's army speaks German or Italian while at camp, dead men don't talk.
Obviously this should allow treating mercenary armies as condottieri as well, so that the English can finally splash out some money to meddle in continental matters, not just wait for annihilation coming from the continent.

I also assume this feature can be turned on whenever, not just during wartime and that these forces aren't shown in the ledger? Mercenaries don't just get transported to the other side of the Channel or Adriatic Sea in a second.

 

[Orctavius]

I have to say that I dislike this feature at a conceptual level. If a nation you love is being attacked, then you should ally with them and assist them in war directly.

 

[reivaj89]

Now we have something to do during peacetime. More war!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sounds like free money in some scenarios, but we'll see .

 

[Grand Historian]

Finally I can now keep Byzantium alive without using a Dip Slot for a guarantee. Thanks, DDRJake!

 

[Florryworry__]

Oh im so hyped up for this, you know what would be really cool if you could get something like: 'Mercenary reputation' which increases if your condotieri do a good job whilst hired out and affects how willing the AI is to hire you and for how much
ofcourse it would decrease if you do jack all when hiring out your troops.

 

[Manzo_]

Is something going to be done also for normal mercenaries? I always felt that mercenaries need to be nerfed but with this Condottieri system I might change the idea for a buff, it looks really OP.

 

[Andrzej2]

Cand you sell normal mercenaries as condotieri? For example Im Burgundy with administrative ideas so I have only mercenary infrantry, can I lend them to someone?

Is there any ability (for example from espionage ideas) that allows us to conceal information about nationality of condotieri army?

Condotieri army keeps bonuses from their homeland? I mean morale, discipline, technology etc. I understand that they keep them but just want to be sure.

Can you send condotieri armies to both sides of the conflict?

Ps. Option to give up command of condotieri army to the buyer would be nice in situation where I just want to make money and don't bother with someone's war but I trust them enought to know that they will lead my army with coution.

 

[Naminu]

Some history for you all.

The condotta (plural condotte) was the contract signed between city leaders
and the head of a company of mercenaries, the condottiere (plural condottieri).
[...]
In its bloom, the period [of condottiere] lasted about
two hundred years, the 1300s and 1400s. Eventually, mercenaries either were
integrated into the cities that hired them or the cities redeveloped their own
defensive forces (or, frequently, a combination of the two). Alongside various
political and technological changes of the period, the incentive problems
posed by mercenary contracts were too difficult to overcome effectively. A new
way of organizing military force had to be found.
[...]
On the demand side, apart from the
sheer frequency with which wars were fought in Italy, one prominent factor
was that the external security situation outstripped the supply of troops that
could legally and effectively be called upon. The forty-day levy, common in
feudal Europe, was insufficient and raised numbers that were dwarfed by the
size of mercenary bands. At its peak in 1353 the Great Company alone numbered
10,000 men. In contrast, cities and the surrounding countryrside (the
contado) were small. Even "by the middle of the sixteenth century, there were
only ten cities in all of Europe with a population in excess of 60,000."
[...]
Bribing a threatening band to
simply go away could be cheaper than to engage in war with it.
[...]
In England, King Henry II engaged
mercenaries "for the suppression of the great rebellion of 1171-4 ...In
some circumstances, particularly those of civil war, mercenaries might prove
more loyal than English troops, [although] in general they were regarded as
unreliable and untrustworthy."
[...]
German mercenaries in particular were sought after
because of the effective riding formation of their heavily armed knights and
warhorses (equis). Lightly armed riders were usually Hungarians (using lighter,
swifter horses, called ronzini ), and foot soldiers were often Italians.
[...]
In 1342, Florence's mercenaries outnumbered its citizen-soldiers
at the ratio of 20 to 1.
[...]
mercenary captains often were members of the smalltime nobility
with aspirations tor higher achievement and recognition

Castles, Battles and Bombs, Brauer, J. & van Tuyll, H., 2008

 

[Ornlu Wolfjarl]

@DDRJake I have a few questions and if you can answer them I'd appreciate it.

Regarding control: Pardon me if I misunderstood. You seem to say that Condotierri will be controlled by the original owner and not by the renting party. What's to stop the original owner from renting the army and then have them sit idle for 18 months in their own lands, particularly since for those 18 months the renting party can't cancel the arrangement? Wouldn't it be better if the Condottieri were controlled by the party who rented them? Also, can I only rent one army at a time per nation, or can I rent them multiple armies that collectively don't surpass the 20k men limit?

Regarding generals: Do generals on loan count towards the owner's leader cap or the client's leader cap or both? Can armies be rented without generals and have the client assign one to them from their own generals? Can the general's skills count towards the price? Does technology matter towards the price?

Regarding navies: Can we do the same thing for navies and if not, are there plans to? Also, can Condottieris use the client's transports or do I have to use my own transports to get them to the client?

Regarding truces: Do they matter when renting out Condottieri?

Regarding defeat in battle: So if the Condottieri are defeated, can they get stackwiped? If they get stackwiped, does the contract immediately end or does it keep going for the full 18 months? Who receives the war exhaustion from losses inflicted?

Regarding access: So let's say I'm Burgundy, I've rented an army to England to fight France. France now has access to my lands but can they ignore my forts? If my Condottieris retreat behind my own forts, can France just pass through and crush/stackwipe my Condottieris? If they can't pass, can they siege down my forts?

Also would like to see answers to the questions posted by other people:
- Who pays for the manpower and reinforcement costs
- What's the impact on opinion/trust if my allies end up fighting my Condottieris?

I also have a suggestion, as an alternative to the client not gaining direct control of the Condottieris. When I rent out an army, they immediately get black-flagged, and can only become un-black-flagged when they enter the client's or their allies territories or the contract ends. While they are in my territory or black-flagged the client doesn't pay me anything. In fact, unless they get un-black-flagged then the contract is in limbo and only begins to count when they've been transferred to the client's lands. They can't retreat back to my lands, unless there is already regular military access.