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Hello and welcome to our latest EU4 dev diary. Following our dev diary on some of the larger HRE mission trees, there were many calls for further ones for the smaller, but still interesting nations of Germany. We agreed, and therefore I am now able to present some (but not all) of the results of this, by revealing some of the extra content we have made for the smaller electors of the HRE, by which I mean the Palatinate, Mainz, Trier and Cologne. (Note that these are not the only countries in Germany which have received some extra treatment, they are just the only ones I will present today ).

The latter three – the Bishop-Electors – were particularly hard done by in earlier versions of EU4, since they lacked their own ideas (using instead the fairly generic “Divine Ideas”) and had missions to become Emperor (a hard task for a bishopric…). I am pleased to say that both these issues have been rectified. First of all, here are their new idea groups:

KOL_ideas = {
start = {
global_manpower_modifier = 0.15
missionaries = 1
}
bonus = {
unjustified_demands = -0.2
}
trigger = {
tag = KOL
}
free = yes

kol_pursuit_of_unity = {
fabricate_claims_cost = -0.25
}
kol_archchancellor_of_italy = {
prestige_decay = -0.01
}
kol_hanseatic_city = {
development_cost = -0.1
}
kol_prime_minister = {
devotion = 0.5
legitimacy = 0.5
global_autonomy = -0.03
}
kol_pivotal_ecclesiastic_territory = {
global_heretic_missionary_strength = 0.03
}
kol_shifting_alliances = {
diplomatic_reputation = 1
}
kol_order_of_saint_michael = {
discipline = 0.05
}
}

kol_pursuit_of_unity:0 "The Pursuit of Territorial Unity"
kol_pursuit_of_unity_desc:0 "Our territory is geographically divided between the Rhineland and Westphalia. We have to find a way to unite our secular possessions in order to strengthen the bishopric and to centralize the government. Perhaps we can find some forgotten claims in our archives."
kol_archchancellor_of_italy:0 "Archicancellarius per Italiam"
kol_archchancellor_of_italy_desc:0 "We hold the title of Archchancellor of Italy within the Holy Roman Empire. Although this title carries little in terms of material power or responsibilities, it does bring with it a certain level of prestige, helping us earn the respect of the other princes."
kol_hanseatic_city:0 "Hanseatic Trade City"
kol_hanseatic_city_desc:0 "Because of its central location on the Rhine and its trade links to Western and Eastern Europe, Cologne has traditionally been a leading member of the Hanseatic League. Through its trade with England and its contacts in the league, Cologne has developed into a large and wealthy trade city. By encouraging its further growth, we will secure a bountiful economic dividend in future!"
kol_prime_minister:0 "Prime Minister of Cologne"
kol_prime_minister_desc:0 "The governance of a bishopric as large as Cologne requires a lot of time. In order to administrate this land, the Archbishop neglects his spiritual duties, leading to unhappiness among his subjects. By establishing the position of Prime Minister, to whom the secular administration of the Archbishopric will be delegated, the Archbishop will gain more time for the spiritual needs of Cologne's population. "
kol_pivotal_ecclesiastic_territory:0 "Pivotal Ecclesiastic Territory"
kol_pivotal_ecclesiastic_territory_desc:0 "As a Bishop-Elector and one of the largest ecclesiastic territories in the Empire, Cologne is a pivotal player in the wars of religion. Our support is likely to be key to the success or downfall of either side in the struggle. We shall make use of this opportunity to spread righteousness and religious correctness across Germany."
kol_shifting_alliances:0 "Shifting Alliances"
kol_shifting_alliances_desc:0 "The rule of a bishopric as large as Cologne requires a lot of time. In order to administrate this land, the Archbishop neglects his spiritual duties, leading to unhappiness among his subjects. By establishing the position of Prime Minister, to whom the secular administration of the Archbishopric will be delegated, the Archbishop will gain more time for the spiritual needs of Cologne's population. "
kol_order_of_saint_michael:0 "Order of St. Michael"
kol_order_of_saint_michael_desc:0 "It is our duty to bring the nobility of our territory into line with the church’s accepted beliefs in order to defend the faith in our bishopric. For this purpose, we should establish a military order open only to noblemen. This order, with St. Michael as its patron, is going to teach our nobles to pray and to receive the sacraments with a chaste soul. In this way, they will acquire the discipline and zealousness they need to defend our bishopric from its spiritual and other enemies."

MAI_ideas = {
start = {
global_tax_modifier = 0.1
advisor_pool = 1
}
bonus = {
improve_relation_modifier = 0.3
}
trigger = {
tag = MAI
}
free = yes

mai_archchancellor_of_germany = {
prestige = 1
}
mai_center_of_religious_learning = {
idea_cost = -0.1
}
mai_saint_hildegard = {
devotion = 1
legitimacy = 1
}
mai_weck_worscht_woi = {
recover_army_morale_speed = 0.05
}
mai_perpetual_privy_council = {
global_autonomy = -0.05
}
mai_rhine_fortress = {
defensiveness = 0.2
}
mai_fifth_season = {
global_unrest = -1
}
}

mai_archchancellor_of_germany:0 "Archicancellarius per Germaniam"
mai_archchancellor_of_germany_desc:0 "Ever since the 10th century, the Archbishops of Mainz have held the title of Archchancellor, making them the highest dignitary in the realm second to only the Emperor himself. Our most prestigious duty is to call and organize the Imperial Elections and to guide the other Prince-Electors in their search for a new Emperor."
mai_center_of_religious_learning:0 "Center of Religious Learning"
mai_center_of_religious_learning_desc:0 "As one of the great centers of religious learning and theology in all of Europe, Mainz is home to many of the brightest Christian and Jewish scholars. Guarding over them is St. Martin's Cathedral, the episcopal see of our bishop, where Kings and Emperors have been crowned."
mai_saint_hildegard:0 "Saint Hildegard of Bingen"
mai_saint_hildegard_desc:0 "Hildegard of Bingen, the 12th century Benedictine abbess and polymath, is revered as a saint in our region. However, her canonisation was hindered by disputes between our previous Archbishops and the Pope. But now Hildegard has finally been accepted in the Roman martyrology, which will foster even greater reverence for her - and for the church in general - among the common folk."
mai_weck_worscht_woi:0 "Weck, Worscht & Woi"
mai_weck_worscht_woi_desc:0 "Weck, Worscht un Woi - bread, sausage and wine - is a favourite meal of our subjects. Its simplicity makes it easily transportable, and therefore an optimal food ration for our army. As we possess fertile lands - and the best vineyards in all of Germany - we can easily afford to supply our troops with Weck, Worscht un Woi surely keeping their fighting morale up!"
mai_perpetual_privy_council:0 "Perpetual Privy Council"
mai_perpetual_privy_council_desc:0 "The disjointed territory that we rule has made it necessary to create an enduring central administration, the perpetual privy council. From now on, we will impose a more rigid rule on our subjects and deprive the estates of their power as well as hindering them from convening at all."
mai_rhine_fortress:0 "The Guard of the Rhine"
mai_rhine_fortress_desc:0 "The German lands have been under threat by enemies from the West ever since the Holy Roman Empire has come into existence, with many foes looking to push us back beyond the Rhine. As the strongest fortress on the west banks of the river, we are the sword and shield of the Empire and it is our holy duty to stand strong against all intruders!"
mai_fifth_season:0 "The Fifth Season"
mai_fifth_season_desc:0 "Other less enlightened countries might prohibit criticism of the nobility by the common folk, but this is not the case here in Mainz when the yearly Karneval rolls around. People are free to criticize social and political injustices under the shelter of cap and bells, imitating those of a different social rank for the day. Anyone who is not a fool at Karneval is foolish for the rest of the year!"

TRI_ideas = {
start = {
tolerance_own = 2
global_manpower_modifier = 0.15
}
bonus = {
discipline = 0.05
}
trigger = {
tag = TRI
}
free = yes

tri_crusader_past = {
army_tradition = 0.5
}
tri_university_of_trier = {
adm_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
}
tri_archchancellor_of_gaul = {
ae_impact = -0.1
}
tri_landesburgen = {
defensiveness = 0.1
global_autonomy = -0.03
}
tri_seamless_robe_of_jesus = {
papal_influence = 1
monthly_fervor_increase = 0.25
church_power_modifier = 0.1
}
tri_prum_abbey = {
prestige = 1
}
tri_domkapitel = {
free_adm_policy = 1
}
}

tri_crusader_past:0 "Crusader Past"
tri_crusader_past_desc:0 "Centuries ago, many brave men left our country as crusaders to take part in the Crusades. Their deeds are deeply ingrained in the memory of our bishopric. Our coat of arms - Saint George’s Cross - was chosen to honor these crusaders. Let all our soldiers remember our crusading past and be exhorted to show that the fire of times gone by is still in them."
tri_university_of_trier:0 "University of Trier"
tri_university_of_trier_desc:0 "The Pope has granted us leave to establish a university in our city, where we can train future priests and administrators for our bishopric. Let us do so and furthermore promote the study of law and medicine, so that we can become a true center of learning and draw students from far and wide."
tri_archchancellor_of_gaul:0 "Archicancellarius per Galliam"
tri_archchancellor_of_gaul_desc:0 "As the Archchancellor of Arles, Burgundy and all of France, it is our right and our duty to bring these lost lands back in to the empire. Under our banner shall the Empire in France be restored!"
tri_landesburgen:0 "Landesburgen"
tri_landesburgen_desc:0 "We have several castles called "Landesburgen" spread across our secular territory. They serve a vital role in our administration, acting as seats for our officials, toll collection posts and strong positions around which to rally our defense against our foes."
tri_seamless_robe_of_jesus:0 "The Seamless Robe of Jesus"
tri_seamless_robe_of_jesus_desc:0 "Helena, mother of the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, is said to have sent the Holy Robe of Jesus to Trier (then known as Augusta Treverorum) after she discovered it in Jerusalem. It has since been held in a reliquary in Trier’s cathedral, but we sometimes put it on display for the faithful, drawing large numbers of pilgrim to our city for the occasion."
tri_prum_abbey:0 "Prüm Abbey"
tri_prum_abbey_desc:0 "Prüm was the favourite monastery of the Carolingians, receiving many privileges and large estates from King Pepin the Short after his marriage to Bertrada the Younger, granddaughter of the founder of the abbey. Over the years, it became not only a beautiful abbey, but also a center of ecclesiastic learning. However, it has declined considerably since those days, and is unable to survive on its own. We shall take over administration of the abbey and restore it to its former glory!"
tri_domkapitel:0 "Influence of the Domkapitel"
tri_domkapitel_desc:0 "The Domkapitel or Cathedral Chapter has great influence over the Archbishopric, choosing new Archbishops, deciding when the Archbishop may summon the estates, and ruling in his stead in the case of his absence. Through their vigilance, they will see to it that Trier is always well administered, whether the Archbishop is present or not."

In terms of missions, several changes were made. First of all, all theocracies in the HRE now have three missions that replace the missions to become Emperor. Secondly, all three Bishop-Electors now share four missions with each other, two focusing on relations with the Emperor and two on relations with each other. Finally, each of the three have one or two missions of their own, to reflect their own situations.

upload_2019-7-15_15-45-56.png


Mainz’s missions in the new setup.

To begin with the missions for all HRE theocracies, the House of God requires all (or at least 10, if you have more) of your provinces to have churches or cathedrals; as a reward, if you have a church in your capital, it will be upgraded to a cathedral (if you already have one there, you will instead be granted 2 base tax). The Lord’s Army then requires that you turn newfound economic strength into an army capable of holding its ground against all unbelievers – in other words, you must have an army that is at least 30,000 men strong or stronger than those of all your neighbours. Divine Empire then requires the Reformation to be successfully navigated: 50 years after its start, 50 (out of around 80) provinces need to have whichever of the religions you opted for.

The first two bishop-elector missions are fairly uncomplicated: They require good relations with the Emperor and having voted for the Emperor in the last three imperial elections. The second two, however, are more exigent: They first require you to either ally with or conquer the other two bishop-electors, then, once the Reformation has been under way for 50 years, it requires the same again, but this time all three must be the same religion. Achieving this will grant +1% missionary strength and +1 tolerance of the true faith for the rest of the game.

Finally, as mentioned, each of the three will have their own unique mission(s). For Mainz, this would be to claim direct control of Erfurt, a Mainzian core at the start of the game. Doing this will grant claims on provinces between Mainz and Erfurt. In Trier’s case, you will be asked to build Trier University by getting the province to 15 development and making sure it has a church and a courthouse; doing this will cause a university to appear (the university tech itself appears fairly late, centuries after Trier University’s historical foundation date in 1473). Cologne will be tasked with making sure its lands are contiguous (e.g. by conquering Berg), which will then put it in a great position to dominate its ecclesiastic rival in northern Germany, Münster. Subduing Münster will make Cologne a dominant power in its part of Germany and grant claims on Hessen and the rest of the North Rhine area.

---

Moving onto the Palatinate, this nation already had its own ideas, but no missions of its own. Historically, the Palatinate were almost-achievers, in that they were for a long time one of the stronger powers in the HRE without ever becoming dominant. They were involved in numerous skirmishes and dynastic disputes with their Wittelsbach cousins in Bavaria, but gradually ceded ground to them; they led the Protestants in the lead-up to the Thirty Years War and their Elector-Palatine, Frederick V, even became King of Bohemia… only for his reign to last just a single winter (earning him the nickname “The Winter King) and lead to the loss of both his territory and his elector title, as Austria and her Bavarian allies took revenge. It would be another thirty years (until the end of the Thirty Years War, no less) until the rulers of the Palatinate were restored their lands and their titles, but they were a much-diminished force, whose lands would be mainly squabbled over by others in later years.

To do justice to their potential, we added a two-pronged mission tree:

upload_2019-7-15_15-54-0.png


The first two columns contain the new missions.

First, to make any progress whatsoever, you will have to increase your holdings to 7 cities and your armies to 15,000 men. Having done this, you will gain claims to help them unify your lands into a contiguous territory – no mean feat with the new map. If you manage to do this, and the Bavarian Wittelsbachs still exist, you will gain claims on the Wittelsbach throne(s), giving you the chance to fulfil the Elector-Palatines’ longstanding ambition of reuniting their dynastic lands (and reversing the real course of history). Finally, after cementing Palatine power in southern Germany, you can turn your attention back to west Germany and become true “Kings of the Rhine” by subjugating the majority of the provinces along the Rhine; doing this will give a permanent modifier granting +1 yearly legitimacy.

upload_2019-7-15_15-54-32.png


Many provinces now separate Heidelberg from the Oberpfalz.

The other branch of the tree first requires the Palatinate to show religious leadership. In practice, this can mean several things: Owning a Center of Reformation and having 100% religious unity is the easiest one, but one can also do it by being the leader of a Religious League or by being on the winning side of the Wars of Religion; for those without Art of War, these last two conditions are replaced by one of having five neighbours of your own religion 50 years after the Reformation started. Once this mission is fulfilled, the Palatinate’s sympathisers in Bohemia (if it is still free) will kick in and grant you a personal union CB for 25 years. Achieving a complete victory over Bohemia as the Palatinate might, however, not be easy (I speak from experience).

Once the east is secure, again, the Elector-Palatine will have to look west and make sure that no invasions from across the Rhine will threaten his lands. This can be achieved in two ways: Either the you ensure that no French nation has a larger army than yourself, or you ally with France and see to it that the two nations follow the same religion. Completing the mission in the first manner will give claims on the French border areas and Paris, but if you befriend France you will instead gain 200 diplomatic power and France as a historical friend.

Finally, now that the Palatinate is truly glorious, you will have to make sure that your court is a fair reflection of this glory by achieving 75 prestige, having three level 3 advisors, and a capital with 30 development. Doing this will give -1% prestige decay for the rest of the game.

---

One further, purely flavour-based change we made was to add a custom title to the Palatinate: Now, so long as they remain electors, their government will be known as an Electoral Palatinate, and the ruler the Elector-Palatine. Should they however lose their electorate for whatever reason, they will be known as a County Palatine, ruled by the Count Palatine. Speaking of Counts and Counties, HRE monarchies with less than 50 development will now also be called Counties and be ruled by Counts.

upload_2019-7-15_15-55-10.png
upload_2019-7-15_15-56-20.png


And finally, one last thing for today:

upload_2019-7-15_16-0-22.png
 

cetvrtak

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The Stari Most could maybe give a trade power bonus in addition to prestige?
I'm not sure what Stari Most could give actually. Some diving ability? An amphibious regiment?
 

Lehnaru

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Westphalia and the Rhineland are not interchangeable. They're two distinct regions with two distinct cultures and histories. Not only that, but they also have decent province density and tags ingame. A Rhenish formable should not be Westphalia, it does a disservice to both. A Westphalian formable should include territory between and including the north sea coast and north of the Rhine while a Rhenish formable should include territory along the German Rhine. The Westphalian tag should concentrate on incorporating the rest of historic Lower Saxony, including Eastphalia and Holstein, and maybe the "Low Saxon" parts of the Netherlands, while a Rhenish tag should concentrate on incorporating Alsace, the Dutch Rhine, and the Swiss Rhine, along with tributaries like the Moselle and Main.
 

gzyd

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I think Stari Most would best be event in that region asking player if you wanna build or not.
If you build it you get prestige and lose some ducats. Its actually good idea.

I agree with this now, it makes more sense as an event than a mission. I thought the trade power modifier was a nice idea too. Good discussion everyone, thanks!
 

TheDungen

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The archbishop electors ideas seems very weak. Well hopefully Brunswick gets some way to become an elector so Köln is no longer the best tag to form hannover with.

First, to make any progress whatsoever, you will have to increase your holdings to 7 cities and your armies to 15,000 men. Having done this, you will gain claims to help them unify your lands into a contiguous territory – no mean feat with the new map. If you manage to do this, and the Bavarian Wittelsbachs still exist, you will gain claims on the Wittelsbach throne(s), giving you the chance to fulfil the Elector-Palatines’ longstanding ambition of reuniting their dynastic lands (and reversing the real course of history). Finally, after cementing Palatine power in southern Germany, you can turn your attention back to west Germany and become true “Kings of the Rhine” by subjugating the majority of the provinces along the Rhine; doing this will give a permanent modifier granting +1 yearly legitimacy.
So to go west we have to take over Bavaria first? That pretty much means the tree is useless, much better to just fabricate claims on the rhine region and sell that one province in bavaria to them. Nothing is worth slogging through all of central southern germany, only to then get a claim on Bavaria that you must push in order to progress, if you haven't got a coalition from uniting your lands then you will beyond doubt have one after doing so and taking all of Bavaria.
One further, purely flavour-based change we made was to add a custom title to the Palatinate: Now, so long as they remain electors, their government will be known as an Electoral Palatinate, and the ruler the Elector-Palatine. Should they however lose their electorate for whatever reason, they will be known as a County Palatine, ruled by the Count Palatine. Speaking of Counts and Counties, HRE monarchies with less than 50 development will now also be called Counties and be ruled by Counts.
That's a lot of localisations to change to Pfalz in my mod. I wish you'd go for endonyms more often.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Westphalia.
I wish I could, they even gave it a culture for some reason.
See above. Frankly if you think Mainz's ideas are anywhere near the strength of Divine you don't have a clue about the balance of the game. You don't remove 5% Discipline; 10% Core Creation Cost and 15% manpower recovery and replace it with 0.05 Army Morale recovery and say 'I think this is about the same power' with a serious face.
You assume it's not meant to be a nerf, none of these were very sucessfull countries in our history why should they have strong ideas?
Maybe. We find the historical basis for a Rhinelander tag to be lacking (we couldn't even decide what it should be called) so for now we opted for a joint treatment of the Rhinelanders and Westphalians (even if I know that the people in question might object to this nowadays). What we did change is the conditions for forming Westphalia - they now no longer rigidly need you to have the lands Napoleon gave to his client state, and are instead more suited to a joint Rhinelander-Westphalian state that may organically arise. You also don't need to leave the HRE for it anymore.
Westphalen is the western part of the low saxon area, it is also a kingdom founded by napoleon but that kingdom was actually in what was traditionally eastphalia, it in no way has anyting to do with the rheineland except that the americans decided at the end of ww2 that all germany's coal/iron regions should be in the same bundesland so they could be occupied more easily. There shouldn't be a westphalian culture, and westphalen should absolutely not have anything to do with the rhineland.
There is already a tag for the Kingdom of the Rhine it is called Lorraine and yes while it is greatly diminished it could easily be made reformable the same way as say England is, reforming it would reform it not as the rump state that remains in 1444 but as it was when it was the kingdom of Lotharingia.
Or if you are dead set on moving the bundesland Rheineland-Westphalen half a millenia back into time atleast have the guts to call it Rheineland-Westphalen so everyone can see it for the anachronism it is.
Just name it Rhineland. The Confederation of the Rhine was within the same time as Westphalia, even sooner than the Kingdom of Westphalia.
Or just The Rhine, the confederation of the Rhine was called that after all, and there's a duchy in ck2 called the Rhine if I don't misremember.
as a bavarian living in Berlin I can only agree! xD everthing north of Bavaria is basically the same...xD xD
Fun. But jokes aside the continential germanic peoples essentially boild down to 4 peoples, Bavarians Saxons Swabians and Franks. About halfway through ck2 the Franks split into the dutch and the Rhenish. That's why it is so odd for the Rhenish to get bundled in with the Saxons cause Saxons and Franks (which the rhenish are) are two different original tribes.
All jokes aside, the obvious choice is Rhineland, even if it sounds a little too modern comparatively.
or The Rhine.
Considering a dev said within the very same quote of the post you are replying to that they were trying to make it less based on Napoleonic Westphalia and more on a theoretical and organically-made Westphalian-Rhineland Kingdom, it is entirely a reasonable request.
there's nothing organic about an Westphalian Rhineland Kingdom the Rheinland is Frankish Westphalia is saxon.
I'm only debating the name of the hypothetical tag; Rhineland shouldn't suffice. Westfalia would be a better choice.

Truth be told, I'm getting a bit tired of all the formables.
How would westphalia be a better choice for the rhineland? You do realize those are two entirely seperate regions which were only merged in a bundesland at the end of ww2 right? They have next to no historical ties to one another.

It is true that Saxony was divided into these three regions in the early middle ages, but the Rhineland was not a part of Saxony back then, but of Lower Lorraine, mainly inhabited not by Saxons but Franks. A Rhineland tag would be a tag for the Rhenish culture, which would (very roughly) correspond to the prussian Rheinprovinz.

View attachment 500455

A unified Rhineland is indeed not very historical, but, as others already said, it's not completely impossible. And if Westfalia and Swabia are formable countries, Rhineland wouldn't be too far of a stretch. As for the name, I guess Rhineland would indeed be the best option, since there is no other suitable term appliable to the lands the tag should cover, atleast not in this time period. Even in 1923, when some people planned to create an independent Rhineland, they just came up with the name "Rhenish Republic" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhenish_Republic).

Apart from the suggestions that were already given, I also have an idea for the Coat of Arms. I'd go with something similar to this:

View attachment 500456

This is a CoA that first came up in the Prussian Rheinprovinz (of course with the Prussian Eagle on top of it, but this would be really inappropriate), which was established in 1822, so only one year after the time frame of the game. Something similar to Westphalias flag would be this one, which comes from the same time period:

View attachment 500457

I'd personally go with the first one, since this is not only a Prussian thing. The green background and the river are still there in todays CoA of Nordrhein-Westfalen, which includes the northern parts of what was the former Rheinprovinz and the Rhineland.

View attachment 500458

Again, these flags aren't really historical and appliable to the early game, but in my opinion this is still more fitting than making Westphalia the formable for Rhenish culture.
Those are some really gorgeous flags, this is what the rheineland uses in Vic2 HFM
2drdQkH.png
 
Last edited:

Caligula Caesar

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Well hopefully Brunswick gets some way to become an elector so Köln is no longer the best tag to form hannover with.

Brunswick is the best tag to form Hanover with.

That's a lot of localisations to change to Pfalz in my mod. I wish you'd go for endonyms more often.

No it is not. It is literally about three.


Re Westphalia and Rhineland: There is little justification for either existing as tags and any content made for them is pure fantasy, not even really history-inspired fantasy. The fact that one of them was added at some point in the distant past is not really a justification for adding the other.
 

cetvrtak

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Nah, i'm just generally confused by your request to add Montenegrin culture, in 1444 especially.
There's an interesting thought - a mechanic that would add a culture that doesn't exist at the beginning of the game but appears later in the timeline.
 

cetvrtak

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Maybe the idea is to steal the dev of Albania, therefore effectively changing the Albanian culture into montenegrin? A bold move, but maybe bearing the true balkan spirit ;) :p
It was only a half serious idea, the part about switching Lezhe to Montenegrin :p Although, I've been researching a bit on the subject. It does appear that the largest city in the Lezhe province is Skadar (Iskodra), which was given to Serbs by the Byzantium in the early middle ages. It makes more sense now why the dinamic localization changes the name of this province to Lezhe if Albanian, and Iskodra if Turkish. I'm guessing that Lezhe is mostly Albanian city.
 

grommile

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There's an interesting thought - a mechanic that would add a culture that doesn't exist at the beginning of the game but appears later in the timeline.
We call that mechanic "province events", and it's already implemented in the New World.
 

Huldunguldlu

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Re Westphalia and Rhineland: There is little justification for either existing as tags and any content made for them is pure fantasy, not even really history-inspired fantasy. The fact that one of them was added at some point in the distant past is not really a justification for adding the other.

Yes, but: In a former dev diary regarding the HRE it was said that Franconia and Swabia will be added as formable tags, and that other german cultures within the HRE will get a midsized formable in the style of Hannover as well. These duchies have little historical basis in the early modern ages as well though, and neither has Westphalia. So there are a bunch of solutions for the Rhenish culture that is currently in the game:

- Base a formable for Rhenish culture on early modern ages: There shouldn't be one. (historical solution, appropriate for the EU4 timeframe)
- Base a formable for Rhenish culture on the duchies of the middle ages (like Swabia): It should be seen as part of Lothringen, which should be formable. (historical solution, but an anachronism, since in the EU4 timeframe it is a bit late for that)
- Base a formable for Rhenish culture on the ideas that came up in the Napoleonic era (like Westphalia): It should be the Rhineland. (historical solution, but an anachronism, since in the EU4 timeframe it is a bit early for that)
- Merge the formable for Rhenish culture with Westphalia. This has even less of a historical basis, since Franks (Rhineland) and Saxons (Westphalia) were different groups for a looong time in the EU4 timeframe, and even the napoleonic Westphalia didn't include parts of the Rhineland.

So, the first three options still have a stronger historical basis than the Westphalian one, and thus it would be better for historical plausibility to choose one of them in my opinion, with the first one being the most reasonable. Since EU4 is a sandbox game though, the second and third option are not completely unrealistic and could be included in the game as well. Merging the Rhineland with Westphalia seems the most unrealistic solution to me.

Also, content made for Lothringen or the Rhineland could be based on history, atleast national ideas could focus on the features that the different lands in the region had in common. Regarding missions, this would indeed be fantasy, true, but not more than missions for Westphalia or Swabia.
 
Last edited:

DamonIsa

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I just want to see something done with Westphalia. I mean you got the Tag there. It doesn't have its own National Ideas. It has no events beyond the decision to form it. Other than bumping you up to Kingdom Rank and like 3 development, there's just nothing there. So it stands out as wasted potential to me. Hanover isn't much better other than getting its own National Ideas, so it is slightly ahead of the curve.

Just odd as a player to have these things there that ultimately do nothing as it were.
 

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This was discussed so long and no. Only cities had big Greek population. Provinces as whole didn't. I have French sources about it. Muslims were majority in anywhere western Anatolia.

This argument is irrelevant, as in other parts of map Pdox also uses citie's culture instead of that from country side. E.g. Lausitz has saxon culture, Slovenia has austrian (althoughthose two will be rectified in new patch), pommeranian is in german culture group (while in XVth century majority of Hinterpommern was slavic) and worst of all whole Teutonic order has prussian culture which is germanic as well.
West Prussia was predominantly slavic even in times when game ends, and at the beginning of game significant parts of Eastern Prussia should belong to baltic culture group.
 

DC123456789

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Why not Lower Lorraine (Lothier) as the 'Rhineland' formable? It is the only non-formable/existent stem duchy left (Upper Lorraine is the current Lorraine tag) and definitely has as much historical justification as Franconia or Swabia.
 

TheDungen

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Brunswick is the best tag to form Hanover with.
Yo mean in the next patch because at the moment that's only true if you are willing to leave the empire.
Re Westphalia and Rhineland: There is little justification for either existing as tags and any content made for them is pure fantasy, not even really history-inspired fantasy. The fact that one of them was added at some point in the distant past is not really a justification for adding the other.
And yet you add a culture for that tag.
And to some extent I disagree I think that formables for regional or cultural conquests make sense. It is about growing from a minor to a regional power and redefining ones identity based on that. Westphalia is the one I don't like because Westphalian culture is just regional variant of ow saxon culture no more distinct than hannoverian or holsteinian.
 

Aquamancer

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This was discussed so long and no. Only cities had big Greek population. Provinces as whole didn't. I have French sources about it. Muslims were majority in anywhere western Anatolia.
Would be interesting to know what the developers base the culture in Anatolia in 1444 on, does it square up to historical accounts?

It's worth pointing out that Sugla/Smyrna and Aydin/Tralles flip to Greek in bookmarks past 1700 (comments on the game code state that they "should not be Greek or Orthodox in 1444; [their] status as a majority Greek [cities] dates to at least after the 17th Century"), so perhaps a late-game event could be added which represents the Greek communities in Sugla and Aydin growing to become the province majority?
 

cetvrtak

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We call that mechanic "province events", and it's already implemented in the New World.
What do you think about this - if Montenegro gets 20+ development of Serbian culture, those provinces convert to Montenegrin culture?