EU4 - Development Diary - 14th of February 2017

[Dakka]

Ah, almost forgot. I promised myself I would post this when we got a Japan DD:

 

[Homusubi]

The issue, however, is that Osaka - excepting perhaps Satsuma - seemed to be the only ones to actually benefit. During the Sengoku there were dozens of major trading cities throughout Japan, and the Tokugawa basically gutted them and their economical growth. Taxes in the domains were also far worse than they had been during the Sengoku because of Sankin-Kotai; the Mori's taxes on the four whites only happened after Sekigahara, after all. Then there's also the Tokugawa freezing the social mobility that the Sengoku had brought with it and reinforcing the idea that merchants were worse than peasants (compare previously to the height of the Toyotomi administration, where merchants-turned-samurai like Yukinaga Konishi and Sen Rikyu held some of the highest positions [even Kanbei Kuroda's family had a mercantile background, though they were samurai by the time he was born]); travelling and literary peasants is all well and good but it won't do much if they couldn't actually use those to benefit or advance themselves.

Ah, I hadn't thought of the other towns, good point. Thanks. Having said that, I still don't think it was as grim as you seem to paint it. It was still possible to move within each shinokosho rank (i.e. merchants becoming more influential merchants), which is at least better than nothing at all (although I do agree that the Edo administration placed waaaaaay too much emphasis on birth-based privilege). Furthermore, afaik merchants could become artisans and vice versa, although there don't seem to be many references to this. (If I'm talking rubbish please say) So saying that the commoners "couldn't actually... benefit or advance themselves" is an exaggeration. Lastly, remember that those Edo edicts that tell commoners never to enjoy themselves 'because frugality' were ideals and were far removed from the reality (see: Saikaku and co.).

Still no Ikko Ikki or Iga/Kõga? thats fine, i still get to play one of my favorite medieval faction in japan (ashikaga shogunate)

There is, as GH has said, Kii. Apart from that though, the most complete example of Honganji administration - Kaga - didn't get its own province, implying that Honganji won't be its own tag. As for the Iga Sokoku, well, Iga is tiny compared to its neighbouring provinces.

did i notice correctly that Japanese culture got split?

It got split several patches ago.

What happened to Japanese ideas? I noticed there traditions are now only +5 discipline? What else is new?

Ashikaga has Daimyo ideas, that's the difference.

I don't think development draining will really be a problem. Two reasons:

1. Taking 2 development from a 20 development province and putting 1 development into a 40 development province is likely a net gain in the sense that it's far more expensive to develop the 40 dev province.

2. How many Daimyos were there at the start of the game? That's however many capitals with a development discount, that many monarch point incomes with surpluses to spend on development - if Japan keeps a decent number of Daimyos it will have uber development by the end of the game. Wouldn't surprise me if they put this in as a means to limit it.

They are generating their own monarch points and can redevelop their land on their own. Net gain for the Shogun.

For the last time (OK, probably not for the last time), DEVELOPMENT IS A PAID FEATURE.

 

[Atlantians]

For the last time (OK, probably not for the last time), DEVELOPMENT IS A PAID FEATURE.

Everything is ultimately a paid feature.

Also, why would you not buy Common Sense?

 

[Badesumofu]

For the last time (OK, probably not for the last time), DEVELOPMENT IS A PAID FEATURE.

What's your point? If you aren't paying for the ongoing development then you don't get to use all the features. The game is better with the DLCs than without, that's the whole point of them.

Right now Common Sense costs five bucks. If you won't pay that then why should you expect development of the game to be focused on your needs over those of people who do?

 

[Threshold]

Also, why would you not buy Common Sense?

Because the development system as it stands is garbage. No, seriously; it is atrocious. I personally avoided buying CS regardless of how many times it went on sale, until we got institutions (in the free patch, no less, not that I'm saying westernization was better because it wasn't), which practically mandates CS for any non-European start.

For the last time (OK, probably not for the last time), DEVELOPMENT IS A PAID FEATURE.

My understanding is that the Japan rework is a paid feature as well (I might be incorrect on this, but I doubt it), so while I agree with you, that's not the best argument to make against it.

Right now Common Sense costs five bucks. If you won't pay that then why should you expect development of the game to be focused on your needs over those of people who do?

Can I pay the five bucks and not be forced to use CS? I would happily pay five bucks for a good development system. I would pay fifteen for it. I might, at this point, pay thirty for it. CS is anything but. If someone had paid me to get it, I would still want to give it back.

I realize this is getting a little off track, but seriously, if Paradox made a new free feature contingent on something in Art of War, no one would bat an eye, because every single thing in that expansion is gold. Instead, they made a new free feature that effectively requires something from a DLC that people actively avoid and wonder what all the fuss is about.

 

[Philadelphus]

For the last time (OK, probably not for the last time), DEVELOPMENT IS A PAID FEATURE.

So is every other DLC mechanic. Should we also forbid discussion of those because some people play with just vanilla? That's going to stifle a whole lot of conversation about the game.

 

[Petrucci]

Ashikaga has Daimyo ideas, that's the difference.

Daimyos don't have + discipline as traditions..

 

[pikaemperor]

My understanding is that the Japan rework is a paid feature as well (I might be incorrect on this, but I doubt it), so while I agree with you, that's not the best argument to make against it.

I think that japan will be partially free, the new daymio system of them not costing slots and shogun being who holds kyoto. The new interactions will be payed most likely, despite the fact that will break the region either by making it unplayable (institutions and development) or OP (hordes without cossaks and the crappy tribes estate and silly horde disunity).

 

[Badesumofu]

Can I pay the five bucks and not be forced to use CS? I would happily pay five bucks for a good development system. I would pay fifteen for it. I might, at this point, pay thirty for it. CS is anything but. If someone had paid me to get it, I would still want to give it back.

I realize this is getting a little off track, but seriously, if Paradox made a new free feature contingent on something in Art of War, no one would bat an eye, because every single thing in that expansion is gold. Instead, they made a new free feature that effectively requires something from a DLC that people actively avoid and wonder what all the fuss is about.

Well your real problem is that you don't like the development system. That's unfortunate but it doesn't make sense to keep every single feature completely free of interaction with every other feature because there might be some people who don't like a certain feature. Just in general, adding more and more features that aren't allowed to interact with any other features from any other expansion is a pretty bad way to build and develop a good game.

I'd also suggest that the number of people who disable CS is pretty low. It's just not something you often see mentioned. I see a good number of people who play with Cossacks because they don't like favours and/or estates. I see plenty who play without MN because they don't like coastal raids and trade leagues. You do see people suggest ways to improve development, but very rare to see people who actually disable the entire DLC because of it.

At a certain point it becomes a case of play the game that the devs designed, or play some version of it from the past that you prefer. But at some point picking and choosing just stops being viable.

 

[BathroomSinger]

Maybe mentioned before but sankin kotai was a policy to limit the military budget of domains by forcing the daimyo to maintain expensive residences in Edo, and make very costly processions to and from Edo. This should be represented as a land maitenance modifier.

Also the authority of the shogunate was formally derived from the emperor. Wish this was represented somewhere.

 

[Kapi96]

This sounds awesome! Will be great to see the Ashikaga actually be vulnerable and not be able to easily wipe the floor with anyone that challenges them. Although gotta wonder if some of the new shogun interactions are a little OP. They should probably require a fairly strong shogun as well as liberty desire. Hmm, maybe they could be used like threaten war? So the daimyo have a choice to reject the shogun and start a war instead. Then the shogun would actually need the power to back up their position.

Oh... and y'all are really delaying on talking about the new Chinese emperor mechanics aren't you?

 

[performer]

So "Sengoku" comes back, integrated in EU II ...

 

[luxfelix]

It may not make sense in terms of game mechanics, however in a historical context, King Louis XIV had his own version of Sankin Kotai at Versailles.

(Just an observation. )

 

[Apollyonna]

Hum...

He answered and I at least saw no reason to repeat something that was said already.

thanks

 

[grommile]

I'd also suggest that the number of people who disable CS is pretty low.

I didn't even bloody buy CS until it was announced that (for all practical purposes) the 1.18 free patch would make CS compulsory in RotW.

 

[Homusubi]

Also, why would you not buy Common Sense?

Well, for me personally, it's a matter of taste - I just don't want that many semi-compulsory monarch point sinks in my game. Which is a shame, because subject interaction looks quite fun.

The best thing to do would probably be to change the effect of the shogunate actions which deal with development to something non-crippling whenever Common Sense isn't enabled (like how PDX deal with "development cost" ideas for non-CS players).

 

[Threshold]

Well your real problem is that you don't like the development system.

True. And up until institutions I expressed my disdain for it by not purchasing CS.

That's unfortunate but it doesn't make sense to keep every single feature completely free of interaction with every other feature because there might be some people who don't like a certain feature. Just in general, adding more and more features that aren't allowed to interact with any other features from any other expansion is a pretty bad way to build and develop a good game.

I happen to agree entirely with this statement. However, interaction should also be good, and fluid, rather than interaction for the sake of interaction.

I'd also suggest that the number of people who disable CS is pretty low.

Since institutions, disabling is no longer viable for many starts. I am aware of a few that did so before, but the majority of that group simply outright refused to purchase it until then. Judging purely by the agrees and disagrees on my post, my position is more common than you might think. It's just that most of us who hold such an opinion have held our tongues (aside from the occasional suggestion to improve the development system) here in the forums, because, speaking from personal experience, every time we raise the issue we're told how wonderful development is. Which is not to say that is what you're saying, and reactions to said position have improved moderately since institutions, but if you're wondering why we've been so silent, that's it.

I see a good number of people who play with Cossacks because they don't like favours and/or estates.

I also used to be one of those, but Cossacks brought me around eventually. It actually didn't even take that long; estates could be done better, but even including the micro, I see them as a QoL improvement. As for the diplomacy, I'm so happy to not be restricted to one war per ally per ten years that it's not even funny. I'll grant that I might be forgetting something, but I can think of nothing in CS that similarly improves my games.

I see plenty who play without MN

Indeed-more people complain about the more recent expansions, as they still have hope that the parts they object to will be tweaked or improved. As CS has been out almost two years now, frankly we're having doubts that anything will be done. But if you look at the few months after CS was released, the pushback was astonishing, and there are people who started playing on pre-development patches then that still do so today.

but very rare to see people who actually disable the entire DLC because of it.

Because why disable it when you can just not buy it instead? Except that's no longer really an option.

At a certain point it becomes a case of play the game that the devs designed, or play some version of it from the past that you prefer. But at some point picking and choosing just stops being viable.

Indeed. That's why I broke down and bought CS. But I still want something better.

Right now Common Sense costs five bucks. If you won't pay that then why should you expect development of the game to be focused on your needs over those of people who do?

So now that I've bought it, I can expect my needs for a better development system to be prioritized, right? Or at the very least taken seriously? As opposed to when CS came out, and Paradox was told by many that their new development system needed to be improved, and they...did nothing.

Don't get me wrong, you make some good points, but the issue is more controversial than it at first appears.

 

[durbal]

You don't need CS to play in 1.18. Not even in ROTW. You just need to get good.

I've developed for institutions exactly once since 1.18 (Renaissance in a Kongo run for African Power) and I play pretty much only ROTW nations. Central Africa is by far the most isolated region in terms of starting institutions too, since after taking the region MP can't just be spent on expansion very easily due to few targets. Had I not planned on developing for institutions I would've just grabbed Renaissance from Egypt anyway.

 

[Zak Preston]

@Johan if only you reworked Eastern European and Caucasus provinces with the same passion and quality as you've displayed while reworking Japan and Scandinavia...

 

[Grand Historian]

Ah, I hadn't thought of the other towns, good point. Thanks. Having said that, I still don't think it was as grim as you seem to paint it. It was still possible to move within each shinokosho rank (i.e. merchants becoming more influential merchants), which is at least better than nothing at all (although I do agree that the Edo administration placed waaaaaay too much emphasis on birth-based privilege). Furthermore, afaik merchants could become artisans and vice versa, although there don't seem to be many references to this. (If I'm talking rubbish please say) So saying that the commoners "couldn't actually... benefit or advance themselves" is an exaggeration. Lastly, remember that those Edo edicts that tell commoners never to enjoy themselves 'because frugality' were ideals and were far removed from the reality (see: Saikaku and co.).

Yes, there still was some mobility within the castes, but that was still marginal and practically none overall - the lack of literary evidence or notable examples of individuals during this period shows that (again, in comparing to the Sengoku when merchants like Dosan Saito could take control of entire provinces). Still better than nothing, I suppose.

True, the Edo edicts were completely and utterly removed from reality, and I doubt even well enforced, but still having them on the books was detrimental in of itself. It's like that old law that prohibited usage of the wheel for anything other than religious purposes due to its Buddhist symbolism; we know it wasn't the best enforced, but it still was on some level and that undoubtedly made things worse than they were.