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EU4 - Development Diary - 14th of April 2016

Hello everyone, and welcome to another development diary for Europa Universalis IV. Today we’ll focus a bit on Mare Nostrum, and what was the goal of the features in that expansion and the accompanying patch.


Improve the Naval aspect of the game
The Naval game is something that has received quite a few complaints over the year, so we really wanted to make an expansion on the naval theme.

Some of the features like Sailors and the Combat Tweaks were just too much of a rework of core concepts that they had to go into the free patch.

We’re rather happy with how the naval combat now works, now that quality actually matters, and it is no longer just about who has the most money to maintain the most heavy-ships.

The Naval Missions, and the Repair mechanics was based on our experiences of the Hearts of Iron IV development, and how much more fun it made the naval game, to avoid constant micromanagement. It was one of the main features we built the exoansion around.

The changes to making blockades more visible, and having Admirals that could be good at blockading was a few free features that have proved to be a success as well.


More Peacetime Activities
After Art of War there has been a constant barrage of requests for more peace-time activities. Pretty much every expansion since then have had a large focus on adding more things to do at peace time. El Dorado had exploration related mechanics, Common Sense added Development, Interaction with Subjects & Parliaments, while Cossacks had Estates and Diplomatic Feedback, not to mention all minor actions added for the all.

Mare Nostrum is no exception there, with two major systems to enhance gameplay outside of war. First of all, we reworked how espionage works for the free patch, to make it more of an interactive mechanic, and far more transparent than before. We also made Support Rebels more of a valid option, and added lots of new spy actions.

Secondly, the feature that was the biggest to develop for Mare Nostrum. The Condottieri. We designed and added this because at the end of the day fighting in eu4 is fun. It was also heavily influenced of the fact that HoI4 testing showed us it was great fun helping out in the Spanish Civil War while still building up your own nation. Of course, Eu4 was not really designed to have units checking two sets of allegiances, so the amount of work to get it to the state we have now was enormous.

It is also the only feature that has made the AI able to crush all QA within a few decades, so we had to scale it back a bit when balancing.


Regional Specific Enhacements
Every expansion we try to add unique mechanics to some part of the world, to make for more variation in gameplay.

Besides implementing a detailed map for central and east africa, with lots of new nations and ideas, we added two cool features to make some less popular countries played, while keeping to the naval theme.

There is not much to say about the Slave Raids and Trade Leagues, except that they work, they are fun, and they create diversity.


Community Requested
We also try to add in things that the community requests in each patch, and Mare Nostrum contains two such features..

Unconditional Surrender - This was requested by both SP & MP proponents, and was added to make it possible to get out wars when you have truly lost, without the opponent totally ruining your nation forever.


Timeline Mapmode - I think this feature has been requested since eu1. One of the most

Balance Related
Obviously, these are the features that tend to be not so popular.

Corruption - This solves quite a lot of balance problems, and makes for a more challenging game longterm.

States and Territories - This solves the problems of overseas mechanics which you had to work around and exploit to benefit from. It also gives greater flexibility to the player.


The teams favorites

So, what did the development team like the most from Mare Nostrum?

Condottieri won in a landslide!


0fC0qse.jpg
 
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4.Umm.. pretty sure I was saying you CANNOT fully blockade a coastline, especially at night.
Specially if you own both sides. Otherwise night doesn't work.
And im pretty sure that 1000 heavies between Constantinople and Biga, leave no room for a fishing boat to carry 100k men, horses, and cannons. Even in the darkest of nights...
 
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Forts, Advisers, 0 Corruption or an Army.

Pick two. Unless you're European or have some crazy income modifiers, you're almost guaranteed to go bankrupt if you attempt more.

Personally I go for an Army and Advisers because they let me actually do things. Corruption and Forts just drain resources, akin to a slow death.
 
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Johan, can you expand on that? I am willing to have an open mind, but somehow I seem to be always missing an explanation of why it is needed.

Let me try.

Problem: One tech type is way more important than the others (imbalance).
Solution: Add a system that punishes the player whenever he picks the strongest option available to him, thus making everything important (balance).

Problem: Expanding makes you way stronger than not expanding (imbalance).
Solution: Make expansion extremely expensive and sometimes non cost-efficient (balance).

Problem: Nobody cares about gold (imbalance).
Solution: Add gold costs to a bunch of stuff that didn't cost gold before (balance).

It's a clumsy solution that doesn't make the player experience more engaging but it does solve the problems.
 
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Specially if you own both sides. Otherwise night doesn't work.
And im pretty sure that 1000 heavies between Constantinople and Biga, leave no room for a fishing boat to carry 100k men, horses, and cannons. Even in the darkest of nights...

Out of pure curiosity, how do you 'park' sailing ships like this? Will it depend solely upon finding patches of shallow water?
 
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On a pre-mare nostrum stream they showed off a 'continue' button at the end of a game (after 1821)

Did this feature get discontinued/canceled or am i just doing something wrong?
 
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Johan, could you please elaborate a bit more on that, because considering the way that the Forums have been on fire for the last week or so [this in itself not being in anyway unexpected, but the fact that it is on fire over THIS SPECIFIC CONCEPT makes it a bit more meaningful], this is a thing that's rather important to discuss.

First, could you please elaborate more on which balance problems corruption is aiming to fix? More specifically, what problems it aims to fix that existing mechanics didn't already cover?
Please, indulge me for a moment here. One line isn't nearly enough.

1. Corruption is good for lategame EU4 gameplay. In old patches after some time, not too long, you have inifinite ducats and game is just too easy. Nothing matters, manpower is irrelevant, you can buy infinite mercs, you can use money for +2/+3 advisors and half of the ideas, idea groups and policies, mechanics are made unimportant - because you have money, why would you want more. Its safe to say, inifinte ducats were ruining eu4 - nobody played much after 1600s. This is big plus in my opinion.

2. It solves tech problem in a way. No more 5-3-15 techings as before. You can try it but its veeery expensive. Another big plus.

3. This one is weaker, but I think paradox still wants to slow down blobbing playstyle - so they introduced MP cost with corruption. Its a bit annoying imo, but sure hell it works.

Now, corruption should be tweaked further and improved. But overall its a good addition.
 
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Hello everyone, and welcome to another development diary for Europa Universalis IV. Today we’ll focus a bit on Mare Nostrum, and what was the goal of the features in that expansion and the accompanying patch.


Improve the Naval aspect of the game
The Naval game is something that has received quite a few complaints over the year, so we really wanted to make an expansion on the naval theme.

Some of the features like Sailors and the Combat Tweaks were just too much of a rework of core concepts that they had to go into the free patch.

We’re rather happy with how the naval combat now works, now that quality actually matters, and it is no longer just about who has the most money to maintain the most heavy-ships.

The Naval Missions, and the Repair mechanics was based on our experiences of the Hearts of Iron IV development, and how much more fun it made the naval game, to avoid constant micromanagement. It was one of the main features we built the exoansion around.

The changes to making blockades more visible, and having Admirals that could be good at blockading was a few free features that have proved to be a success as well.


More Peacetime Activities
After Art of War there has been a constant barrage of requests for more peace-time activities. Pretty much every expansion since then have had a large focus on adding more things to do at peace time. El Dorado had exploration related mechanics, Common Sense added Development, Interaction with Subjects & Parliaments, while Cossacks had Estates and Diplomatic Feedback, not to mention all minor actions added for the all.

Mare Nostrum is no exception there, with two major systems to enhance gameplay outside of war. First of all, we reworked how espionage works for the free patch, to make it more of an interactive mechanic, and far more transparent than before. We also made Support Rebels more of a valid option, and added lots of new spy actions.

Secondly, the feature that was the biggest to develop for Mare Nostrum. The Condottieri. We designed and added this because at the end of the day fighting in eu4 is fun. It was also heavily influenced of the fact that HoI4 testing showed us it was great fun helping out in the Spanish Civil War while still building up your own nation. Of course, Eu4 was not really designed to have units checking two sets of allegiances, so the amount of work to get it to the state we have now was enormous.

It is also the only feature that has made the AI able to crush all QA within a few decades, so we had to scale it back a bit when balancing.


Regional Specific Enhacements
Every expansion we try to add unique mechanics to some part of the world, to make for more variation in gameplay.

Besides implementing a detailed map for central and east africa, with lots of new nations and ideas, we added two cool features to make some less popular countries played, while keeping to the naval theme.

There is not much to say about the Slave Raids and Trade Leagues, except that they work, they are fun, and they create diversity.


Community Requested
We also try to add in things that the community requests in each patch, and Mare Nostrum contains two such features..

Unconditional Surrender - This was requested by both SP & MP proponents, and was added to make it possible to get out wars when you have truly lost, without the opponent totally ruining your nation forever.


Timeline Mapmode - I think this feature has been requested since eu1. One of the most

Balance Related
Obviously, these are the features that tend to be not so popular.

Corruption - This solves quite a lot of balance problems, and makes for a more challenging game longterm.

States and Territories - This solves the problems of overseas mechanics which you had to work around and exploit to benefit from. It also gives greater flexibility to the player.


The teams favorites

So, what did the development team like the most from Mare Nostrum?

Condottieri won in a landslide!


0fC0qse.jpg

For some reason that Poland seriously bothers me...
 
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On a pre-mare nostrum stream they showed off a 'continue' button at the end of a game (after 1821)

Did this feature get discontinued/canceled or am i just doing something wrong?
You cannot continue incompatible save games
 
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It's hilarious that Johan is still hanging on to the thought that corruption makes the game "harder". No, it's just a money slider. It's an annoyance that adds nothing to the game and has destroyed the AI

It's 1493. The Ottomans have not taken back their cores.
 
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2. It solves tech problem in a way. No more 5-3-15 techings as before. You can try it but its veeery expensive. Another big plus.

Why is this a problem exactly? A 5-3-15 tech nation will have one idea group instead of 4 (so only 2 national ideas instead of the full 7+ambition), low amount of states, a non-competitive navy, awful production/trade efficiency, no advanced government form (so basically no autonomy reduction), high liberty desire on all vassals, shitty coring range, admin efficiency nowhere in sight, and advanced casus belli/client states are only a distant dream.
 
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Instead of being enabled by an idea group, espionage actions should be enabled by diplomatic tech. diplomatic tech useful, corruption for unbalanced research unneeded.
That's not how you quote another's post :-D
 
I haven't properly played EUIV since Art of War I believe. I decided to get back into it as Mare Nostrum was released and I was in for quite a shock in a positive way. The game has evolved into complex beast yet there are so many improvements that also make playing more convenient. I'm not denying that there are problems but I at least had a great experience. I'm just writing my impressions here as a returning player, playing nations in Europe so I can't comment on ROTW or MP where the problems in the game seem to be more apparent.

I decided to jump in as ironman Nassau and just blindly stumble into all the new mechanics as I went along. Overall it went better than I expected. I restarted once and the 2nd time I made some critical errors but I decided to keep on playing. My worst mistakes:

-Converting to protestantism just as I became the emperor because I didn't realise it would automatically re-elect a catholic emperor (I thought they'd just be mad at me...). On the other hand the religious war was a blast.

-Getting myself stuck in a personal union under an incredibly powerful Bohemia because I blindly handed out royal marriages while dealing with other problems. Getting out of it however was an epic journey as I noticed a new ability to ask for support from other nations. After a hard fought war I finally regained independence and narrowly escaped integration.

-Two coalition wars where I vastly underestimated the AI and consequently lost significant amounts of land. I was about to give up but to my surprise I was able to salvage the situation both times and re-emerge as a powerful nation in the HRE.

-Knee deep in debt and completely overrun by noble rebels. Entire army destroyed and Brandenburg invading. I was sure this was it but to my surprise after the rebels won, I gained their very sizable army for myself and I was able to stabilize my country and slowly work myself out of debts.

I particularly enjoyed the new trust/favor mechanism with AIs and all the other improvements regarding player-AI interaction. At first I found it frustrating because I couldn't just ally someone and instantly pull them into a war with me but as I learned the system, everything started making sense. Making allies is a more involved process and it pays off to help them out so that they will help you in return. Things like vassal interaction have so much more depth now and I like how, for example, vassals with high liberty will simply not help you in wars.

These aspects are very important personally because an easily exploitable AI quickly ruins the immersion for me. I know the sentiment here is always negative about the AI but considering the complexity of this game, I wouldn't hesitate to put EU4 on my list of top 5 stategy AIs in terms of enjoyment and reasonable challenge (yes, I have played Civ 4 and GalCiv 2).

As far as peace time mechanics go, I generally had my hands busy managing relations, planning conquests and just generally optimising my nation. There is a lot more to do than the last time I played but I do tend to blast through peace time at speed 5.

After 200 years I decided I have a decent enough idea of how the new EU4 works so currently I'm playing another game as Milan in a more measured fashion. Building and managing my fleets is SO much better than the last time I played for one thing. The trade leagues, corruption and the AI in general are making blobbing more challenging and I prefer the game favouring slower expansion.

Overall I'm very impressed with what Paradox has done with EU4.
 
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@Johan,

1) Now that several espionage actions are DLC gated, Espionage needs to be removed from idea groups and instead linked to DiploTech.

Current bonuses can be redistributed to DiploTech and other lackluster idea groups, as well as new policies. The actions can be unlocked via DiploTech directly.

This also opens up a chance to add a new idea group to collect and balance other bonuses from currenty overpowered idea groups.

2) Corruption needs to be balanced ny Government Types and Tech groups.

Chinese Tech, for instance, should be more resistant to corruption than Western tech due to Confusian policies and sensibilities.

3) Corruption needs to be integrated with Estates, badly. As well as Parliaments.

4) Remove tech corruption malus from having a disparity with diplotech.

Have corruption only be effectes by a lack of balance between AdminTech and MilTech. This makes a lot more sense historically, gamplay-wise, and eliminates entirely the problem this creates for nations who are without navies (natives or inland nations) and should not be keeping their DiploTech High unless they have vassals.

Also, increase corruption when your vassals have better DiploTech than their liege. This balances out the above.

5) Have corruption be much lower when you have very little money in the treasury and are balancing your budget well.

Have corruption be tied to having a larger treasuries. This makes sense flavourwise, balancewise, and encourages 'using or losing' those cash reserves.

This helps nations with relatively high development but poor cash flow from wrong culture/religion, while sensibly hurting nations hording money.

Hording money, in affluent and decedant Nations, historically, was a major incentivisor of corruption.

e.g. Aztecs, Incas, Spain; etc.
 
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The states/territories change is good conceptually, corruption is the opposite. These two are on opposite ends of the spectrum in good/bad implementation. With states/territories, you de-kludged the overseas mechanic and put some real decision making into empire management.

With corruption, you're basically just saying "we don't like it when ROTW nations pick a lot of ideas at once or exist + expand, so have a penalty for it".

I feel the same way about timeline feature (almost strictly good, if not entirely) vs unconditional surrender (buffing blobs when they're already tending to run away is a step backwards and counter-acts states/territories).

I won't comment on MN features because I didn't get that expansion.
 
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It's hilarious that Johan is still hanging on to the thought that corruption makes the game "harder". No, it's just a money slider. It's an annoyance that adds nothing to the game and has destroyed the AI

It's 1493. The Ottomans have not taken back their cores.

well, what are you expecting? AI ottoman empire is put in a game for just making byzantium players' wet dreams. 16th century is should be ottomans's golden era but instead of this, we see just a paper tiger ottos in the game. loses almost every war they fought against europeans. (HAB-SPA-FRA-POL)

IRL when sultan suleiman arrived to vienna in 1531, he has not found any enemy army because archduke has already escaped into the germany. :D
 
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I appreciate the effort to provide some background on the various changes introduced in 1.16/Mare Nostrum. A dev diary should be more than just a feature teaser. That said, I would frankly maintain that the content of this diary is rather vague to qualify as design rationale.

When you say the goal of a naval-oriented feature is to improve naval gameplay, you're simply not telling us anything that we don't already know. Perhaps the most helpful thing would be for me to give some examples of questions that could be addressed:

In what ways did the existing relevant mechanics fall short? How do the new relevant mechanics address those shortcomings? Were any different implementations of the new mechanics strongly considered? What made you decide that this was the best overall implementation? Did you encounter any technical difficulties that particularly influenced that decision?

For example, how did you arrive at the conclusion that naval gameplay called for an additional abstraction in the form of Sailors? What does the Sailors mechanic accomplish that Manpower, Naval force limits, and Naval Tradition would not? Which specific balance issues are addressed by Corruption, and how does it solve the problem?
 
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Addendum:

@Johan,

Have Estates able to be placed in wrong culture/wrong religion territories adjacent to home-region states, like I have sugested elsewhere.

With this you can keep the Estates demand of development still limited to development in states, so overusing this could lead to overly influential estates.

Then balance this further this way:
-1) Have Estates over 75% influence raise corruption exponentially, starting low and hitting dangerous levels in the upper 80s and lower 90s.

-2) raise the limit on estate diasters to 85%, in light of point 1, but also:

-3) drastically increase the speed and severity of estate disasters.
 
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More Peacetime Activities
After Art of War there has been a constant barrage of requests for more peace-time activities. Pretty much every expansion since then have had a large focus on adding more things to do at peace time. El Dorado had exploration related mechanics, Common Sense added Development, Interaction with Subjects & Parliaments, while Cossacks had Estates and Diplomatic Feedback, not to mention all minor actions added for the all.

Mare Nostrum is no exception there, with two major systems to enhance gameplay outside of war. First of all, we reworked how espionage works for the free patch, to make it more of an interactive mechanic, and far more transparent than before. We also made Support Rebels more of a valid option, and added lots of new spy actions.

Secondly, the feature that was the biggest to develop for Mare Nostrum. The Condottieri. We designed and added this because at the end of the day fighting in eu4 is fun. It was also heavily influenced of the fact that HoI4 testing showed us it was great fun helping out in the Spanish Civil War while still building up your own nation. Of course, Eu4 was not really designed to have units checking two sets of allegiances, so the amount of work to get it to the state we have now was enormous.

It is also the only feature that has made the AI able to crush all QA within a few decades, so we had to scale it back a bit when balancing.

In deed some are good ideas. I can only speak for my self, in my experience the game is a race for mana, i cant use mana to develop my real because my enemy tec faster than me, the other features use money and i cant waste money in support rebels, parliament, when i have to construct ships, buildings, etc.Some times even in peace i had to full my army because revolts (several times they spawn 8 months later even with 90%, yes 8 months with negative money). Maybe if i blop i have the money or the time to send part of my army to condottieri, but why if i can use that army and manpower to expand ( my style of game).

Is not a complain is my game experience, i was really happy the first time i read develop your realm, if only dont cost mana :( the experience of take a tinny hunt on siberia or a forgoted desert village to a "city of the universe" (rome), maybe i was to happy xd. Maybe introduce this good features in a way to make the player immersion more than click and forgot.

Ahhh please fix the Mare Nostrum content pack please, the somalian units are only in 1 tag, and i cant found the nubian units.
 
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