EU4 - Development Diary - 13th of August 2019

Good day all, Tuesday is here once again as it often is, so let's dive into another Dev Diary for the upcoming European Update. Last week we were all about how you can project your power externally, so this week let's look more internally, with focus on Estates.

Back in April we had a dev diary which was largely an expunge of thoughts on the Estates feature, where it's been and we still want to take it. Let's get a recap on our thoughts from then:

Firstly, the busywork element of Estates should be removed, or at the very least reduced. our Grand Strategy games are about creating , without sounding too pretentious, intellectually stimulating experiences, and the current methods of interacting with your Estates are not up to par with this.

Additionally, the actions done through the estates should be more impactful. I've said it quite a few times before, but I'll say it again, when a Diet is called, perhaps there should be...a Diet? Impactful is an easy word to throw around with various different meanings being drawn from it, but in Estates' cases, the existing interactions often make little change worth noting outside of their influence and loyalty, which has limited meaningful effect on your nation until hitting crisis point where they can seize control of your nation through disaster.

On another note, making the Estate UI more accessible would be a boon. Currently, much of the hands-on actions are somewhat buried as menus within menu

Over the past few months we've been pondering how we can make such aspirations a reality, and today we'll share where we are with that.

As mentioned last week, and will continue to be mentioned, any numbers seen and especially interfaces seen, are not in their final form

13th DD no Estates.jpg


As teased earlier, one of the first things we did with Estates is completely remove their relationship with individual provinces. This interaction with estates was always micro intensive, deeply confusing for new players, caused a lot of issues with 1444 setup for many nations (Nobles eating all my gold provinces) and scaled fairly terribly into the late game. It was not without its charms: assigning individual estates to individual provinces could have a nice internal management feel, but it was not an action that lent itself well to the expansion loop of the game. It was hard to feel excited about the estate allocation to your newest 20 provinces, while a tall player would have little interaction to be done throughout the entire game.

The death of direct province ties gives birth to a new concept in EUIV, that of Crown Land. Every nation with Estates has their Crown Land to manage. Much like how previously Estates started with a share of provinces, now they own a certain percentage of Crown Land. There is 100% of Crown Land which is divided between the various Estates, and the nation's own full control.

13th DD French Crown Land.jpg

Pie-chart, coder art flavour. The French have yet to reign in their nobles

Estates' portion of Crown Land will heavily affect their influence, as well as many of the interactions you have with them. Conversely, your nation's control over Crown Land is of grave importance: If you want to be a strong, absolutist state heaving into the Age of Absolutism, you'll want to wrestle control away from your estates, and giving up all of your crown land will have negative effects of your control over the nation.

You have many avenues of influence over Crown Land. Firstly, there are three direct interactions available in the Estate Screen.

  • Sale of Titles
    • Sell 5% Crown Land to the Estates based on Influence for 1 Year of Income
    • +5% All Estate Loyalty
  • Seize Land
    • Gain 3% Crown Lands, estates loses based on their influence
    • -10% All Estate Loyalty
    • Give +5 Unrest to random provinces up until you equivalent development the estates hold.
    • Spawn rebels fitting for the most influential estate type.
  • Summon the Diet
    • [REDACTED]
    • [REDACTED]
    • [REDACTED]
Additionally, developing your lands directly will increase your direct share of Crown Land, while acquiring new provinces will boost your Estates' share, based on their current influence. Highly influential estates will see it as their right to enjoy the lion's share of new lands.

Another big change happening here are with the interactions one has with the estates. I'll refer to an excellent post from the aforementioned dev diary.

So here are my thoughts on Estates: atm they are unnecessary button clicks that u can do every 20 tears to get free monarch points, also as some governments (like hordes) the best play is to just remove them entirely. I think they should be a lot more impactful, once your nation get's bigger, since they were what helped kings keep big empires together in Europe.

We don't want Estates to be the monarch point and advisor generating buttons that you hammer every couple decades, but in reality, it's how a lot of people use it. Heck, it's how I use it, so what's to be done here?

We actually turned this into a guiding principal of designing the Estate screen and their interactions. We were not to have any interactions which the user would return there on a regular pulse to repeat. As such, all old Estate interactions have been removed, and we have instead introduced a system of Estate Privileges

13th DD Noble Priv.jpg


13th DD Burghers Priv.jpg


Once again, all numbers and Interfaces are far from complete. You won't be seeing a screen full of ??? on release (well, I certainly hope not)

Rather than actions with cooldowns that you demand or bestow your Estates as before, these Privileges are meaty interactions that you can choose to take with your estates. They will impact on their Influence/Loyalty/Crown Land Share and come with a variety of effects, often wide reaching, long lasting and more often than not, impacting on your maximum absolutism. When the age of Absolutism comes around, you may well consider revoking these Privileges to gain absolute control over the state (Although if your ambitions are Revolutionary, you may have other plans...)

Each Estate type have their own Privileges and many of the old functions of estates are accounted for. The nobility, for example, can give you added military power per month if you're willing to guarantee them precious crown land, while the Rajputs will enable the direct recruitment of Rajput Regiments, in exchange for permanently increased influence. While such Privileges can be revoked, much like seizing the crown land away from them, you will invoke their ire, and should be done when you have either sufficiently appeased the estates through other means, or are ready to deal with their rebellions.

We'll certainly be back to talk more about these Estate changes as development on the upcoming European Update continues. As ever, questions and comments are welcome in this thread, and next week we'll go on to talk about another sizeable change of a more Ecumenical variety.

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Anonymer

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@DDRJake ,
Will Paradox make it possible for the HRE-Emperor to call in an Imperial Diet where he can try to pass imperial reforms instead of the old HRE-System? Because in its essence the HRE is just an Empire where most provinces are controlled by the estates instead of being crown lands. Reworking the HRE in a way where we have to negotiate reforms with the princes and having to hold regular Imperial Diets would make the HRE much more interesting. Currently the HRE is more decentralized than it was in some ways [princes are able to form an alliance with outside powers against the emperor] and more centralized than it should be [the emperor doesn't really interact with the HRE members besides reforms etc.] Making the emperor call in Imperial Diets could open up new ways to generate imperial influence for the reforms or allow us to trade imperial influence for short term bonuses or maybe even direct ownership of a province in the HRE for a bigger price. Also whenever the HRE is attacked from the outside there should be a call to arms for all HRE members against the attacker since thats how it is supposed to be. Since this would probably be OP it should be possible to deny [costing the emperor imperial influence] but also lower the opinion of other princes regarding the denying prince since he dishonored the HRE.
 

agonistes

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Sad. I like the estates as is. The micromanagement is minimal.

There are many more uses than just mashing buttons for mana. For example, need to generate unrest to spawn some zealots? Or lower unrest until separatism dies down?

The game doesn't need ti be made simpler.
 

Pendrake

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This still sounds overly complicated, boring, and a bit of a pain in the butt for players (ESPECIALLY any possible new players to the series). It should be fun and add to the immersion/dynamic of the game. Not boring, clunky, frustrating, and confusing. In fact, it sounds even worse than the current system lol. I hope I am wrong, but like I said. It should be fun, dynamic, entertaining, and immersive. It should add to the fun and experience of the game. Not punish players, frustrate them, confuse them, and bore/turn them off. Love the game BTW. Been a fan since back in the EU1 days. lol
 

DanubianCossak

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This still sounds overly complicated, boring, and a bit of a pain in the butt for players (ESPECIALLY any possible new players to the series). It should be fun and add to the immersion/dynamic of the game. Not boring, clunky, frustrating, and confusing. In fact, it sounds even worse than the current system lol. I hope I am wrong, but like I said. It should be fun, dynamic, entertaining, and immersive. It should add to the fun and experience of the game. Not punish players, frustrate them, confuse them, and bore/turn them off. Love the game BTW. Been a fan since back in the EU1 days. lol

From the screenshot it looks like one window where you set a bonus per each estate once and then have it passively on for the rest of the game?

It seems very simple and straightforward to me?

IMO if they could make it something like the various realm laws in CK2 that would be perfect. CK2 has much better internal real management than EU4 (not even talking about vassals, just the realm laws make it more interesting).
 

Vohen

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Good day all, Tuesday is here once again as it often is, so let's dive into another Dev Diary for the upcoming European Update. Last week we were all about how you can project your power externally, so this week let's look more internally, with focus on Estates.

Back in April we had a dev diary which was largely an expunge of thoughts on the Estates feature, where it's been and we still want to take it. Let's get a recap on our thoughts from then:



Over the past few months we've been pondering how we can make such aspirations a reality, and today we'll share where we are with that.

As mentioned last week, and will continue to be mentioned, any numbers seen and especially interfaces seen, are not in their final form

View attachment 505525

As teased earlier, one of the first things we did with Estates is completely remove their relationship with individual provinces. This interaction with estates was always micro intensive, deeply confusing for new players, caused a lot of issues with 1444 setup for many nations (Nobles eating all my gold provinces) and scaled fairly terribly into the late game. It was not without its charms: assigning individual estates to individual provinces could have a nice internal management feel, but it was not an action that lent itself well to the expansion loop of the game. It was hard to feel excited about the estate allocation to your newest 20 provinces, while a tall player would have little interaction to be done throughout the entire game.

The death of direct province ties gives birth to a new concept in EUIV, that of Crown Land. Every nation with Estates has their Crown Land to manage. Much like how previously Estates started with a share of provinces, now they own a certain percentage of Crown Land. There is 100% of Crown Land which is divided between the various Estates, and the nation's own full control.

View attachment 505529
Pie-chart, coder art flavour. The French have yet to reign in their nobles

Estates' portion of Crown Land will heavily affect their influence, as well as many of the interactions you have with them. Conversely, your nation's control over Crown Land is of grave importance: If you want to be a strong, absolutist state heaving into the Age of Absolutism, you'll want to wrestle control away from your estates, and giving up all of your crown land will have negative effects of your control over the nation.

You have many avenues of influence over Crown Land. Firstly, there are three direct interactions available in the Estate Screen.

  • Sale of Titles
    • Sell 5% Crown Land to the Estates based on Influence for 1 Year of Income
    • +5% All Estate Loyalty
  • Seize Land
    • Gain 3% Crown Lands, estates loses based on their influence
    • -10% All Estate Loyalty
    • Give +5 Unrest to random provinces up until you equivalent development the estates hold.
    • Spawn rebels fitting for the most influential estate type.
  • Summon the Diet
    • [REDACTED]
    • [REDACTED]
    • [REDACTED]
Additionally, developing your lands directly will increase your direct share of Crown Land, while acquiring new provinces will boost your Estates' share, based on their current influence. Highly influential estates will see it as their right to enjoy the lion's share of new lands.

Another big change happening here are with the interactions one has with the estates. I'll refer to an excellent post from the aforementioned dev diary.



We don't want Estates to be the monarch point and advisor generating buttons that you hammer every couple decades, but in reality, it's how a lot of people use it. Heck, it's how I use it, so what's to be done here?

We actually turned this into a guiding principal of designing the Estate screen and their interactions. We were not to have any interactions which the user would return there on a regular pulse to repeat. As such, all old Estate interactions have been removed, and we have instead introduced a system of Estate Privileges

View attachment 505526

View attachment 505527

Once again, all numbers and Interfaces are far from complete. You won't be seeing a screen full of ??? on release (well, I certainly hope not)

Rather than actions with cooldowns that you demand or bestow your Estates as before, these Privileges are meaty interactions that you can choose to take with your estates. They will impact on their Influence/Loyalty/Crown Land Share and come with a variety of effects, often wide reaching, long lasting and more often than not, impacting on your maximum absolutism. When the age of Absolutism comes around, you may well consider revoking these Privileges to gain absolute control over the state (Although if your ambitions are Revolutionary, you may have other plans...)

Each Estate type have their own Privileges and many of the old functions of estates are accounted for. The nobility, for example, can give you added military power per month if you're willing to guarantee them precious crown land, while the Rajputs will enable the direct recruitment of Rajput Regiments, in exchange for permanently increased influence. While such Privileges can be revoked, much like seizing the crown land away from them, you will invoke their ire, and should be done when you have either sufficiently appeased the estates through other means, or are ready to deal with their rebellions.

We'll certainly be back to talk more about these Estate changes as development on the upcoming European Update continues. As ever, questions and comments are welcome in this thread, and next week we'll go on to talk about another sizeable change of a more Ecumenical variety.

View attachment 505650
Question: how moddable exactly is this new system going to be? Will we have access to conditions or variables such as estate_crown_land (or something of the kind) to access the percentage of crown land an estate controls?
This thing already has my brain engine running wild :p
 

Metz

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Upgrading ships should cost less than making a new one. Upgrading one version before should cost 25% of a new one. Then, 50, 75, and everything 4 versions and after behind a full cost.

If it’s too much discount then the previous version could be half price and everything else that’s older would be full price.
 

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CountCristo

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at the common absolutism timing of 1623~1630, that's only +18% AE +18% coring cost +18% warscore cost +18% over-extension multiplier and +18% corruption while coring, but hey that's only like 1.5 full idea groups worth of modifiers so no big deal, I would also take the +1 adm per month

Entirely possible I'm mucking up my maths here - but why 18%? isn't it 16% - since -20 absolutism lowers admin efficiency by 8%. Since you are going from 50% to 42% admin efficiency.
 

Ident

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This is the first really meaningful change since the missions overhaul. Not just an added button, not just some extra provinces on the map or a flavor nation. This is a real gameplay change, and a global value for these things makes so much more sense than the province-allocation we had to do for the Estates before.

The Estates have been a lackluster and only a MP booster minigame since the release of its expansion, this overhaul could be a gamechanger if done right.

We don't want Estates to be the monarch point and advisor generating buttons that you hammer every couple decades, but in reality, it's how a lot of people use it. Heck, it's how I use it, so what's to be done here?
Exactly, but this is how you guys designed it from the get-go and I and others have complained about this on the forum. I mean, what did you expect if you give us a "raise MP" button to be used every couple of years. That we just stare at it and ignore the entire feature? I am really glad you are finally designing this to be played in a compelling way.

I am very excited about this change, and that's the first time I am getting excited about anything announced for EUIV in months. To me this feature is much more worth than any of those nations/province changes that are made, because this affects the core gameplay for everyone. Please keep focussing on these important changes.
 

dynalon

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Entirely possible I'm mucking up my maths here - but why 18%? isn't it 16% - since -20 absolutism lowers admin efficiency by 8%. Since you are going from 50% to 42% admin efficiency.
WIth the age ability, it's 55% --> 47% (or rather 45% cost --> 53% cost), so 53/45=117.8
 

CountCristo

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Sataniel98

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I always thought EU4 shows the financial situation of many princes too unhistorically. For example, the Hohenzollerns got about twice as much money from the Franconian lands (~60,000fl) as from Brandenburg (<40,000fl) in 1470s (source), yet Ansbach is a useless, underdeveloped OPM in EU4 and Brandenburg can easily become a regional powerhouse in no time. I miss the internal politics, the whole effort that was necessary to make Brandenburg governable at all and the scarcity of money in the first 250 years of the Hohenzollerns' rule in EU4, the same goes for other tags in similar situations. I'm not asking you to mess with the balancing that much, but at least if the options are adjusted for a historical setup, countries should in my opinion start with estate modifiers, corruption, inflation and maybe even debts in a way that gives a hint on their historical situation instead of starting from zero.
 

dynalon

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This would just make estates a nonfactor in the age of absolutism since nobody in their right mind would give up absolutism for a extra few ducats.
Well, if you're going to do an absolutism-increasing action anyway, or if the privilige is worth the Mil to use Harsh Treatment to counteract it (and if you don't have any rebel progress, you could lower autonomy to pay for a privilege right now and do the Harsh Treatment next time), or if you're over 100 absolutism and you still got the +1 yearly absolutism age ability...
 

MatRopert

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Would the autonomy gain be universal or just for some provinces? and would it increase to a cap or keep going to 100%?
For now it's universal, as estates are no longer tied to provinces. It represents the general grasp you directly have on your land (or the lack thereof).
I generally get the impression that even with this rework, Estates are still a nuisance best kept at 0% influence/Crown Lands. I've always had this same impression with the current mechanics, which I'd only use to get my 150/200 mana every 20 years. The nuisances (unrest, negative effects if loyalty is below 40%) would generally outweigh the bonuses, barring a few exceptions (Dhimmi/Rajputs/etc). Could you or @DDRJake maybe share an example where it's benificial to the player to play a game with the Estates being more than a hurdle?
Will there be benefits from having high estate loyalty as before? The bonuses from the privilege dont seem to be scaled with influence or land ownership or anything :( I want there to have benefits to have powerful estates.
What are the benefits of having estates. Currently what I see now is you just want to purge them from your land and suffer temporary of the unrest. There must be some plus side to it.
The bonuses/drawbacks from having estates happy and influent will still be there. The trick will be to manage to do that *while* you keep a good chunk of the crown land for yourself.
On top of that granting them privileges will (for a price) give your powerful modifiers such as a +1 monthly power or access to special units (cossacks, rajputs...).
Finally estates will also grant you access to ****REDACTED****.
 

$ilent_$trider

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Or, hear me out, absolutism enhancements need to be cut down OR (of the logical kind) give penalties along
I mean, with 100 absolutism (which isn't hard to get) you get +5% Discipline (which is a fine bonus), 40% ADM Eff (which is INSANE) and -50% (which I guess only makes sense in MP games?).

The 40% ADM efficiency is equivalent to ADM 27 tech AND being a custom nation with a +10% national idea, while +5% discipline you can get with different ideas and national ideas, so yeah. Absolutism is a great idea but it has no downside to the game whatsoever so it becomes THE ONLY OPTIMAL strategy to follow.
 

Chazb5046

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For now it's universal, as estates are no longer tied to provinces. It represents the general grasp you directly have on your land (or the lack thereof).



The bonuses/drawbacks from having estates happy and influent will still be there. The trick will be to manage to do that *while* you keep a good chunk of the crown land for yourself.
On top of that granting them privileges will (for a price) give your powerful modifiers such as a +1 monthly power or access to special units (cossacks, rajputs...).
Finally estates will also grant you access to ****REDACTED****.

I’m psyched about *this and the DLC. Can I give you my money now?
 
Last edited:

MatRopert

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I’m psyched about gas and the DLC. Can I give you my money now?
I wouldn't say no but most of those will be part of the free update. ;)
Only some privileges and ***REDACTED*** will be part of the paid DLC when it comes to estates.