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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of September 2017

Welcome all to another fine Tuesday and its accompanying EU4 Dev Diary. In last week's diary we mentioned that we would take a look at changes to Islam in the upcoming expansion which will be released alongside update 1.23. As we have made clear, we're giving a lot of love to the Muslim world in 1.23 and as such let's look at changes we've made to Islam and Piety.

We'll start with looking at the Piety bar. As a mechanic, it has remained fairly untouched for EU4's existence. Few would doubt that the Piety bonuses are strong, but they can't be called the most engaging of the game's content. In 1.23, we've visually spruced up the Piety bar, introducing terms for both ends of the spectrum, with low Piety being called Mysticism and high piety being depicted as devotion towards Legalism. Additionally, Piety events have been rewritten to reflect different the types of piety (Mystic vs Legalistic) rather than trying to measure "how pious" a ruler was. We have also taken this opportunity to weed out some of the older events that were not up to our current standards, with book burning no longer being a Pious action.

piety bar.jpg


Additionally, for expansion owners your passive Piety bonus can be passed up in favour of one-off effects depending on your Pious leanings. At -75 piety or lower, you can call on Religious Followers to bolster your manpower, gaining 2 years' of manpower growth. At 75 or greater Piety, you are able to Enforce Faithful Adherence for an immediate loss of 2 corruption. These actions will push your piety back towards the centre by 50, so consider carefully if the one-time action is worth foregoing the Pious effect you have built up.

Additionally, each Islamic nation will follow one Muslim School of Law. The School that your nation adheres to is predetermined and cannot be changed, or for new nations/converts, chosen at your spawning/conversion. Each School grants its own bonus and has a relationship with each other school, ranging between Respect, Ambivalent and Hate. While Ambivalence grants no particular effect, nations from Schools with a mutual respect or hatered will find relations and diplomatic acceptance strengthened or shakier respectively. The relationships between schools are harmed by large scale and prolonged wars between larger nations of those schools, and conversely can be improved by longstanding, trusting alliances between them.

schools.jpg


Schools and their bonuses are as follows:

religious_schools = {
#Sunnis
hanafi_school = {
technology_cost = -0.05
}
hanbali_school = {
ae_impact = -0.1
}
maliki_school = {
development_cost = -0.1
}
shafii_school = {
merchants = 1
}
#Shias
ismaili_school = {
horde_unity = 1
legitimacy = 1
republican_tradition = 0.5
devotion = 1
}
jafari_school = {
shock_damage = 0.1
}
zaidi_school = {
shock_damage_received = -0.1
}
}

relations degrade.jpg


So while your own School is set in stone, we allow Islamic nations to Invite Scholars from other Schools. Assuming an alliance and high relations with another nation, you will be able to spend 50 Admin points to invite a Scholar who will give you an extra effect in addition to your own School's for 20 years.

invite scholar.jpg


Inviting a scholar from an opposing faith's School (Such as a Sunni nation trying to invite a Zaidi Scholar) will require low piety, although the Ibadis are exempt from this.

Additionally, as I like to do, let's have a look at Another region of the world and how trade goods have changed. In fact, let's just grab all of western/Central Europe!

W europe trade goods .jpg


With Piety and Muslim Schools covered today, we shall spend the next week sheepishly looking at two nations in particular who had a profound effect on the Middle East in the 15th Century.
 
Glass in 1444 is mostly places where early glass or forest glass was made. Glass is also a trade good you'll see grow in worth over time a bit (actually the price of glass will be adjusted up to 4 times and not necessarily only upwards).
 
Glass in 1444 is mostly places where forest glass was made. Glass is also a trade good you'll see grow in worth over time a bit (actually the price of glass will be adjusted up to 4 times and not necessarily only upwards).
Are there any special places for incense?
 
You get something wrong actually. First of all, in Sunni schools there is no hostility like huge wars. Conversely, there are so many issues between Sunni and Shiites. Nobody considers the wars between Mamluks and the Ottomans as religious ones. Secondly, the Sufi orders (Mystics) are pious. They are not heretics or cynical people. Lack of piety must be replaced with another thing maybe disobedience towards Ulema. For example, when we look at the Ottoman Padishahs, early or late, they have their sheiks(head of an order) while they are really pious people. Thirdly, you should really work on Janissaries in the Mysticism case because they were Bektashis. Bektashis were basically Sunni Sufi order but they changed so much in late Ottoman period and eventually came closer to Shia because Sultan Mahmut II disbanded them, and murdered so many of them, converted their shrines to Nakshibandi shrines. In this case, Janissary obedience can be added to the game. Additionally, you should add more Sufi orders to make the game more complicated for Muslim especially Sunni nations. This causes troubles like riots etc. A nerf is critically needed. Just research more and make EU4 more enjoyable. I love this game please do not make it a disappointment.
 
Once again, being Mystic won't be considered impious by the game. The slider won't have anything to do with piety anymore. Both extremes could be considered pious, just in different fields
 
people are getting hung up on the -piety/+piety -thing. The slider that represents the type of your states piety is a +/- slider, which means both ends cannot be +100 piety. It is just a value that represents the type of the piety, like LeSingeAffame said...
 
Nice!

One thing that surprised me with that trade goods map: while I'm aware that England having lots of cloth provinces is historically accurate, have you seen Lincolnshire? It's pretty much entirely composed of grain.
 
You get something wrong actually. First of all, in Sunni schools there is no hostility like huge wars. Conversely, there are so many issues between Sunni and Shiites. Nobody considers the wars between Mamluks and the Ottomans as religious ones. Secondly, the Sufi orders (Mystics) are pious. They are not heretics or cynical people. Lack of piety must be replaced with another thing maybe disobedience towards Ulema. For example, when we look at the Ottoman Padishahs, early or late, they have their sheiks(head of an order) while they are really pious people. Thirdly, you should really work on Janissaries in the Mysticism case because they were Bektashis. Bektashis were basically Sunni Sufi order but they changed so much in late Ottoman period and eventually came closer to Shia because Sultan Mahmut II disbanded them, and murdered so many of them, converted their shrines to Nakshibandi shrines. In this case, Janissary obedience can be added to the game. Additionally, you should add more Sufi orders to make the game more complicated for Muslim especially Sunni nations. This causes troubles like riots etc. A nerf is critically needed. Just research more and make EU4 more enjoyable. I love this game please do not make it a disappointment.

muh semantics
 
I don't know if this has already been asked, but will there be more price-change events for other trade goods? I perhaps even events that do not trigger every game for more variety?
 
I don't know if this has already been asked, but will there be more price-change events for other trade goods? I perhaps even events that do not trigger every game for more variety?

Even as it is there are price change events that don't trigger every game. Some were even so unlikely that I tweaked them a bit to actually show up a bit more.
But some of our new events also change the older goods, and some of the old events have had their effects tweaked.
Prices have been tampered with a bit in general, not only for the new goods. But most significant new price changes will be for the new trade goods themselves.
 
@DDRJake or anyone who knows something,

Since we are in a religious dev diary ...
Is there any changes planned for the shinto faith ? Their bonus are not that usefull and definitively need a little buff (in my opinion)
 
Legalism and Mysticism should be completely swapped around.

Why does fanatic mysticism like Sufism provide bonuses to technology, tax and manpower, while legalism provides morale and missionary bonuses. These two should 100% be swapped, everything about the terms, bonuses and so on scream that its just a typo.



Also, I really hate to complain about you giving love to Islam like some right-wing preacher, but can Paradox, can you please stop making Islam so ridiculously overpowered. Among all the massive bonuses to technology, tolerance, tax, manpower, morale and so on, you've decided to add even more bonuses. Meanwhile leaving all the other world religions (which you apparently think should just convert to Islam) are just being left in the dust in terms of actual mechanics and strength.

I mean, honestly this really is just getting ridiculous, and considering you can stack all of these school bonuses:

-25% tech cost
+20% tax
+20% manpower
-10% development cost

all with constant gifts of money, prestige and mana.

or

+15% morale
+3% missionary
+20% fort defence.
+10% shock damage
-10% shock damage received.

(note the above are potential combined bonuses using only effects from being (different kinds/play styles) ofMuslim, not from national specific or anything else. Because, don't get me started on them)

I mean seriously....

Seriously?

The above isn't even counting all the other hosts of bonuses they get.

Im not sure if all of this just stems from the developers having a pet like for playing in the middle east, or whether its just historical ignorance and the rose-tinted goggles look Islamic nations during this period as if they were super-advanced utopian paradises, while other national religions like Budism and Hinduism are just irrelevant anecdotes of history.
 
Legalism and Mysticism should be completely swapped around.

Why does fanatic mysticism like Sufism provide bonuses to technology, tax and manpower, while legalism provides morale and missionary bonuses. These two should 100% be swapped, everything about the terms, bonuses and so on scream that its just a typo.



Also, I really hate to complain about you giving love to Islam like some right-wing preacher, but can Paradox, can you please stop making Islam so ridiculously overpowered. Among all the massive bonuses to technology, tolerance, tax, manpower, morale and so on, you've decided to add even more bonuses. Meanwhile leaving all the other world religions (which you apparently think should just convert to Islam) are just being left in the dust in terms of actual mechanics and strength.

I mean, honestly this really is just getting ridiculous, and considering you can stack all of these school bonuses:

-25% tech cost
+20% tax
+20% manpower
-10% development cost

all with constant gifts of money, prestige and mana.

or

+15% morale
+3% missionary
+20% fort defence.
+10% shock damage
-10% shock damage received.


I don't agree with all of your points but the piety bar has always been pretty strong which compounds with the dhimmi and now the sects is does seam like lots of bonuses (although i am not quite sure how you got all of those your numbers). Only ones that come close are the mesoamericans ones and they have a tough time as it is .I would suggest maybe making the piety bonues and little less high given the new options
 
I don't agree with all of your points but the piety bar has always been pretty strong which compounds with the dhimmi and now the sects is does seam like lots of bonuses (although i am not quite sure how you got all of those your numbers). Only ones that come close are the mesoamericans ones and they have a tough time as it is .I would suggest maybe making the piety bonues and little less high given the new options

I think this is probably the solution. And probably increase the cost for taking the extra bonuses (50 admin for 20 years is nothing).
 
Legalism and Mysticism should be completely swapped around.

Why does fanatic mysticism like Sufism provide bonuses to technology, tax and manpower, while legalism provides morale and missionary bonuses. These two should 100% be swapped, everything about the terms, bonuses and so on scream that its just a typo.



Also, I really hate to complain about you giving love to Islam like some right-wing preacher, but can Paradox, can you please stop making Islam so ridiculously overpowered. Among all the massive bonuses to technology, tolerance, tax, manpower, morale and so on, you've decided to add even more bonuses. Meanwhile leaving all the other world religions (which you apparently think should just convert to Islam) are just being left in the dust in terms of actual mechanics and strength.

I mean, honestly this really is just getting ridiculous, and considering you can stack all of these school bonuses:

-25% tech cost
+20% tax
+20% manpower
-10% development cost

all with constant gifts of money, prestige and mana.

or

+15% morale
+3% missionary
+20% fort defence.
+10% shock damage
-10% shock damage received.

(note the above are potential combined bonuses using only effects from being (different kinds/play styles) ofMuslim, not from national specific or anything else. Because, don't get me started on them)

I mean seriously....

Seriously?

The above isn't even counting all the other hosts of bonuses they get.

Im not sure if all of this just stems from the developers having a pet like for playing in the middle east, or whether its just historical ignorance and the rose-tinted goggles look Islamic nations during this period as if they were super-advanced utopian paradises, while other national religions like Budism and Hinduism are just irrelevant anecdotes of history.


I do agree that this seems to be paradox trying to shoe horn mysticism and legalism into the piety system or in other words they're trying to fit a square peg into a circle and they've done it poorly. The modifiers fit negative belief in God and Positive belief in God it doesn't make sense to assign them to mysticism or legalism one way or another. Mysticism was more like the current Hinduism system because you chose what to be mystical about and it was generally ruler specific, while legalism could've fit the piety system for rulers. I think they chose the split because they didn't want to remove the current modifier system but they still wanted to update the art and events, which ends up making the mechanic all together nonsensical.

They should've just removed the slider for mysticism and then in a later patch added a piety slider to Catholicism albeit a less strong one or just give the slider to an unexpanded upon faith such as animism, totemism, etc.

I do want to note though that change for the sake of change is exciting though.