EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of May 2016

[Tavior]

Missionaries to neighbors? I don't think that will ever happen like at all.

Think about it. If your enemy has humanist. Sending missionaries to incite a riot would be pointless.

 

[pigsarehairy]

what would be really good if there were an expansion based around dynasty mechanics because they are rubbish no offence

 

[Angelos]

Unfreezing the technology groups would be nice. The advantages enjoyed by certain nations can become a bit ridiculous. I understand how "lucky nations" have been boosted in this aspect to better represent this "luck" , but it leads to major imbalances during a 400 years grand campaign. Moreover, it leads to historic inaccuracies that are not really representative of the age. The Ottomans for example, did indeed use some aspects of technology that were more advanced for a little time, but were mostly the result of short time "leasing" of foreign experts, not permanent conditions. The Mamluks were pretty much their technological equal in 1419, but get routed every time due to the "luck" paragon. I say, drop the technology groups as far as technological speed is concerned, just keep them as far as unit flavor is concerned. If Kuba is able to get advanced warships by 1600, why shouldn't she be able to ?

 

[Trexeth]

My god, don't pay attention to map mode, it's a distraction. OBVIOUS!!!!!

The new thing is in the top left side of the screen, under stability, next to "Select a mission". Chair with 3 white dots.

I guess - introduction of council in EU4? or something

 

[bitmapmedivh]

I agree, the game really needs some work in Asia. Having played since the early EU1 days, there are some things that the game has never gotten quite right in Asia. Focusing in on the areas I know more about, China and India, these would be:

Spoiler: Suggestions extraordinaire

China:

1. The Qing Dynasty never appears
2. Passing the Mandate is messy. It was messy in real life, but the AI never does so in game.
3. There needs to be a mechanism to encourage the various states in a Warring States II scenario to attempt to conquer each other and re-establish the Mandate.


India:
1. The Mughals never appear
2. The Marathas never appear
3. The Bahmanids and Vijayanagar are too stable compared to real life - mechanisms need to be put in place to shake up that stability somewhat.


How to rectify these issues? I've got some ideas for those of you who want to wade through the following wall of text

China:

All the issues come from the Mandate. Losing the Mandate will need to be more of a disaster due to losing prestige, stability, power projection, etc. While that disaster is occurring and rebels start springing up, there needs to be an event with a reasonable MTTH where the ruling dynasty decides to invite a warlord to help them: in the Ming's case it would be to invite the Manchurians, Li Zicheng, a random "Duke of X" ("X" being one of the potential Chinese revolter states), or the dynasty decides to go it alone (which will result in either a likely Mingsplosion or the actual survival of the Ming Dynasty). Choosing one of the first three will give Ming a big army with an appropriate general, create another big rebel army (either a Manchurian one or one led by Li Zicheng, whichever was not chosen), and set up a second event some time later where the warlord in question will attempt to stage a coup. If the coup option is chosen, Ming is replaced by a new tag (either Qing, Shun, or "X", as above) and the Mandate is re-established. If the this results in the Qing Dynasty, the strongest Manchurian state will be integrated to Qing (after its approval of course). If the coup option isn't chosen, then even more instability will result.

Later losses of the Mandate would follow in this pattern, except using two or three "Dukes of X" for choices (or the Manchurians again if the current dynasty isn't Qing).

If there is a total Mingsplosion/Warring States II situation, the various states should be encouraged to re-establish a unified China. They should all gain CBs on each other and have massive diplomatic penalties towards each other. To encourage the re-establishment of the Mandate, each state should get a permanent claim on Beijing, Kaifeng, and Nanjing - whichever state gains 2 of the 3 will re-establish the Mandate and become the new ruling dynasty.

In all cases, re-establishing the Mandate should give bonuses as both a reward and as an incentive to put down any remaining rebellions and/or independent states. Re-establishing the Mandate should give a good-sized lump sum in cash (to buy up armies), give a temporary morale boost to armies (say 10 or 25 years?), permanent claims to the rest of China, permanent CBs against those "resisting the Mandate", and perhaps other bonuses.


India:

Bluntly, after 16 years and four games, we're not going to get the Timurids to follow their destiny and focus on India to form the Mughals. So, simply, we need to create a disaster for Delhi in the early 16th century that will usually result in the tag change to the Mughals (for all intents and purposes, the Battle of Panipat was an out-of-the-blue disaster for Delhi). Of course, if the ability to form the Mughals shouldn't be taken away from the Timurids (or by reforming them, if, by some utterly bizarre turn of events, the Mughals form and the Timurids somehow conquer them), but by doing this, we ensure the Mughals appearing in many, many more games than they do now. When the Mughals form, they should get a god-like ruler/general (no harm in calling him Babur either), a substantial lump sum in cash (from the loot Babur got, including the Koh-i-Noor), and long-term claims throughout India.

The rest of the issues are simple. The Marathas need to have a "Dutch Revolt"-type chain of events in their home provinces in the second half of the 17th century. Once they form, they should also get large claims throughout central India and some impressive generals. The Bahmanids need to have disasters/instability whenever there is a regency as well as an extra disaster at the end of the 15th/start of 16th centuries; between those two we should see the Bahmanids weakened or even collapse more often. Vijayanagar should get an event/disaster after 1550 when their capital is occupied to simulate the collapse of the state after the occupation of Vijayanagar city in 1565.


Beyond that in Asia, I would say the Philippines need more states, especially Tondo. Something needs to be done to make the appearance of Persia more organic, but as the historical circumstances (QQ conquering the western lands of the Timurids, the AQ pulling off a shocker and defeating the QQ, and Persia forming as a revolter from AQ), I'm not sure how this could be done without massive railroading...

With China, what's needed is a rework of the Celestial Empire mechanics. Right now, when the situation in the empire is good, it's very good. But as soon as it turns even the sligtest bit bad, things collapse completely. There is no sense of relative decline or anything. Two bad events coupled with an illegitimate birth and the Mandate is lost. A gradual system is needed, where the player can see the coming catastrophy and take measures that might occupy him without things turning becoming a complete hell first.

First off, replace legitimacy with another decimal-based value counter, like Republican Tradition. Call this counter Mandate of Heaven. This will work similarly to how RT works for republics and Karma/Piety works for Buddhists and Muslims. Events options, unrest, unjust wars, low stability, uprisings, bankruptcy and war outcomes will affect the value of this counter. At high value, it gives bonuses, at low value it gives maluses. Why replace legitimacy? Because legitimacy works more for European type monarchies, where dynasty and state are separate entities. In the Chinese dynastic system the dynasty, in effect, IS the state due to being the current sons of Heaven. This better reflects the dynastic cycle, rather than seeing the Yi family inherit the Ming tag. And it gives the type of unique flavor Johan is looking for in the OP.

Secondly for China, do away with the factions as they are now. Instead, either introduce unique estates or, more likely since Estates are behind the Cossacks paywall, create an Estate-like system. The purpose of this system is to simulate the loss of central authority to regional governors and warlords that happened in every dynasty before they collapsed. In this system you grant provinces to an estate called Governors inside the China super-region. When the Mandate of Heaven has a high value they won't ask for many provinces and have a high loyalty, providing bonuses to tax income and lowered corruption and unrest. As the Mandate values weakens they'll start to ask for more provinces and they'll instead provide maluses to tax income, increase corruption and unrest. At very low Mandate there's a chance the tags that have cores on their provinces declare independence.

The second estate is called Commanders and can be granted to provinces outside the China super-region. They work largely the same as Governors, but provide a bonus to manpower and stability cost at high Mandate and a malus to the same when it's low. They will rebel with large armies when Mandate is very low and seek to overthrow the central government. Each "region" will spawn their own rebel army. They represent all the regional generals that, left to their own devices, sought to carve out their own fiefdoms or claim the throne for themselves.

The third and last estate are the Eunuchs. They give bonuses to diplomatic reputation and trade power at high Mandate and maluses to the same at low. They will only demand one province, at very low Mandate, and that is the capital itself. This represents a palace coup by them, which will increase unrest throughout the Empire and start a disaster countdown. Upon completion the disaster called Warring States will happen, and all Governors and Commanders will declare independence.

When the central government collapses like this, all the revolter states gain a permanent conquest CB on all other tags within the Chinese cultural group and super-region. When they fullfill the requirements for the Celestial Empire (20 provinces in the region etc) the may claim the Mandate, giving them CE government type and permanent claims on the entire region, thus beginning the dynastic cycle anew.

The reason to make the factions akin to estates is that you can more easily see their influence spread across the Empire and interact with them through the menu options in the Estates tab. Placate them, bribe them, etc. As is, there is little reason to juggle the factions and they don't represent the internal strife of China in any good way. All dynasties fell through some combination of bad finances, an eternal cycle of famine/floods that sparked rebellions and banditry which in turn depleted the treasury even more, giving room for regional governors and military commanders to expand their influence until central authority finally collapsed completely. Likewise, using a replacement for legitimacy will give you a greater insight into system itself, and you'll be able to see a bad situation coming and be able to rectify it before it becomes a fullblown disaster that punishes you by way of RNG-rolls. No more loss of mandate just because you had the emperor die during a war to be succeeded by a low legitimacy heir and immediately after lose another stability point by event thus sending you over the threshold into complete disaster land. Now, you will see a gradual loss of income and manpower, and a growth of corruption that slowly eats away at you if your Mandate is low.


For South East Asia, I'd say introduce a unique government for all of the region, including Indonesia and the Philippines: Mandala. This government type is all about vassals, and represent the Power Centre-surrounded-by-fluid-borders type of city-states that were dominant in the region up until the Colonial Era.

In this government type, only the capital state can be a state, everything else is territories. You expand mainly by making other states your vassal. But vassals aren't limited in their diplomatic options, and can be vassalised by another Mandala state if they have higher relations with the would be vassal than the current overlord has. Low legitimacy, relative strength and development level give relationship bonuses betwen Mandala states. Together this represents the almost feudal, personal relationships between rulers the system was based on. Vassalage is beneficial for both vassal and overlord, providing income and trade bonuses for both of them.

A state with negative stability and low legitimacy will run the risk of the Empire collapse disaster, which will result in all vassals declaring independence. This system will represent the fluid situation in the region, where regional centers rose and fell in ways unique to the region itself. This way you have a government system that mirrors the tributary-based city-state "empires" that fell almost as quickly as they rose. So in short you get a system that borrows both from the current Shogunate/Daimyo and Aztec systems, in some ways.

 

[bitmapmedivh]

My god, don't pay attention to map mode, it's a distraction. OBVIOUS!!!!!

The new thing is in the top left side of the screen, under stability, next to "Select a mission". Chair with 3 white dots.

I guess - introduction of council in EU4? or something

That's the parliament mechanic introduced in Common Sense.

 

[tom025]

I personally disagree about the state of natives nations, you just wait for 100 years (AT LEAST) and wait for even longer for catching up in tech.

In my opinion new world nation still need some improvement. They need at leats transport boats for meet europeans sooner !

 

[Jorlem]

With regard to the HRE, there are a few QoL improvements I'd like to see, like an easy way of finding nations that are potential free cities.

 

[Bob Branagan]

It could stand to be more dynamic. As is, provinces only increase in development from direct development action, a handful of events and a few country specific decisions. A lot of the world looks the same development wise in 1844 as in 1444. This could stand to be improved upon. For example, by making development happen randomly in provinces and having it such that investing monarch points reduce the MTTH of random development in a province, rather than just instantly improving it?

How about adding an estate to a province allows for development of that 'stat', clergy adds to tax, burgers adds to production, nobs to military, either through an event or adding to that 'stat' once a decade. Flavors could be added, clergy giving bonus' to religious conversion (as well as resistance to protestant and reformed conversion during the reformation), burgers to trade power, nobs reduce recruitment. At the very least this would add a point or reason to the estate mechanic, as it is it doesn't really do much.

 

[Twoflower]

With regard to the HRE, there are a few QoL improvements I'd like to see, like an easy way of finding nations that are potential free cities.

That, and it would be really good if a free city that has been annexed would always be released as a republic and not a duchy or bishopric.

 

[serhatturkel]

Alevism should be added as new religion and most of the mid-east anatolian provinces should start as Alevi. This is the distribution of Alevism in Anatolia at 1444. Then the religion spread to west anatolia, in the 16th and 17th centuries. They have revolted many times to lower taxes, you may have heard as "Jelali Revolts".

Ottomans doesn't belong to Levantine culture group, should be moved to new culture group along with Azerbaijani people.

Thanks.

 

[Qwerthas]

I'd like to see the ideas for Nitra in-game.

 

[aantia]

Corruption and development are shallow (corruption even more so) because they do not meaningfully alter your decision making process in the vast majority of cases

Corruption means you can't dump diplo tech, and adds more depth to overextension and religious disunity.

 

[aantia]

....

China 3: They do get a casus belli to reunify China.
India 2: There's an event for this, but it just switches culture in a couple of provinces.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Corruption means you can't dump diplo tech, and adds more depth to overextension and religious disunity.

You don't attain depth by removing depth and nerfing trash tier religions, sorry.

 

[Karpaj]

I hope that we will got earlier start date than 1444. Maybe 1356?

 

[LinusLinothorax]

There are also aspects of the game which we once were happy with, but feel would require are not entirely happy with now. Our technology system, basically hailing from EU1, is based too much around rigid tech groups, punishing nations outside of Europe.

Yes, that is pretty much the biggest weakness of EU4. That Non-Europeans play like Europeans, just in sh*tty. Its dime to develop own mechanics for them.

 

[Freudia]

Corruption means you can't dump diplo tech, and adds more depth to overextension and religious disunity.

On the contrary, Corruption removed depth to overextension and religious disunity. Because of corruption, you basically can't take much more OE than 100% like you could in the past. Going over 100% was a decision the player could make, especially if they were confident or skilled, but now it's a false choice. Same thing with religious unity; you used to be able to make a conscious decision with deliberate tradeoffs (sit on disunity for awhile and eat the increased revolt risk and unstable nature of those provinces while you do other things or focus on other conversions), but now you basically always want to convert things as fast as possible.

Corruption via religion also narrowed the idea group selection even further, further forcing expanders to take either religious or humanist in every single game.

So yes, tell me how it adds more depth to the game when all it really does is remove options and force you to play more same-y every game?

 

[shafii777]

I am waiting for a middle east DLC. I have a name for it ´Europa Universalis IV - Tribes of Arabia`.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

I am waiting for a middle east DLC. I have a name for it ´Europa Universalis IV - Tribes of Arabia`.

I tip my hat for this highly creative name.