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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
Last edited:

Mingmung

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Wurtemburg and Urach are geographically too close to each other for a good split.
 

jrgen3

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This.
I think the quiet interesting situation with Kur-Köln and Stadt Köln should be represented.
The City of Cologne was the largest City in Germany, an important member of the Hanse and trading hub between England and Italy.

While Kur-Köln was one of the largest Bishoprics and, obviously, elector to the Kaiser.

The current province of Cologne is big enough to contain a Frankfurt-sized Free City Cologne, with just a little bit of adjustment.

Also, a little bit more wealth to that region would not hurt, as currently western germany is a poor backwater in comparisson to the lowcountries.
While I agree that the Free City of Cologne would be a great addition, how would you differentiate the two countries? They can't both be called Cologne. And you can't name one "Free City of Cologne", as it might change government form. Same with "Archbishopric of Cologne". And you can't name the current one "Electorate of Cologne" either, as it might lose its privileges as elector.
 

BrotherJonathan

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I definitely agree with the idea that some other people have proposed of giving Switzerland a different government type. My personal take on this would be to create a new government type, "Confederacy." This government type would provide defensive bonuses at the cost of high province autonomy, and could be used to simulate not only Switzerland, but also other nations, such as the Zaprozhian Cossacks or the Articles of Confederation-era United States. With that in mind, maybe this hypothetical government type could also provide the option to eventually reform into a more centralized form of government at the risk of causing a revolt, or serve as a midpoint for tribal/nomadic nations trying to settle down and reform their governments?
 

wkscrombie

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Pretty disappointed to hear that there won’t be a special mechanic for the Swiss Confederacy. I really hope that will be reconsidered— ever since I read that the upcoming update will be Europe-focused, I’ve been looking forward to playing in that unique and fascinating situation.
 

wkscrombie

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Also, I’d really love to see more impassable terrain. It always makes any region much more interesting to play in.

Also also, Portuguese NIs. Please.
 

netherlink

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While I agree that the Free City of Cologne would be a great addition, how would you differentiate the two countries? They can't both be called Cologne. And you can't name one "Free City of Cologne", as it might change government form. Same with "Archbishopric of Cologne". And you can't name the current one "Electorate of Cologne" either, as it might lose its privileges as elector.
There are quiet a few possibilities here, as Cologne had many different names.
  • "Sancta Colonia Dei Gratia Romanae Ecclesiae Fidelis Filia" might be just a little bit too long, though...
  • "Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium", or short "CCAA", is the original roman name, but that's maybe a little bit too long ago...
  • "Coellen" or "Coeln" are medieval names for the City, as well as the Latin version "Colonia Agrippina". Those, i think, are neither too long, nor too close to "Cologne" to be mistaken.
  • "Cöln" is the name during the early modern era, so probably the most accurate
For the bishopry i would simply keep the currently implemented names.
 

Roland Traveler

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That first screenshot of this mod ive tangentialy heard about looks like a clusterfuck.
Might also be a Salvador Dali picture or something.

My first thought upon seeing it was “Dear God no.” I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or bad thing.

I sincerely hope the update will be satisfying for this region; not a repeat of the last two patches. This ddiary once again doesn't put me at ease. There are good things (mostly things said by the community), but also bsd things or unmentioned ones.

This is literally what was asked for. The devs stated how they want to add new provinces and what their initial ideas were while opening it up to community feedback. If that doesn’t help set your mind at ease, then you are impossible to please.
 

Mingmung

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Altenburg The one time I recommend looking toward wikipedia for inspiration.
Precisely that.

@Roland Traveler You don't know me if you think I'm impossible (or even hard) to please. I think I have more than enough reasons to stay pessimistic until we see good results. I see all kinds of red flags if things like Magdeburg-splits get mentioned, even if it's just an idea, because of the last two map-updates. I was also talking about ideas of the devs, some of which are inspired by the community. I've made a whole HRE suggestion together with some other guys for a reason.
 

jrgen3

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There are quiet a few possibilities here, as Cologne had many different names.
  • "Sancta Colonia Dei Gratia Romanae Ecclesiae Fidelis Filia" might be just a little bit too long, though...
  • "Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium", or short "CCAA", is the original roman name, but that's maybe a little bit too long ago...
  • "Coellen" or "Coeln" are medieval names for the City, as well as the Latin version "Colonia Agrippina". Those, i think, are neither too long, nor too close to "Cologne" to be mistaken.
  • "Cöln" is the name during the early modern era, so probably the most accurate
For the bishopry i would simply keep the currently implemented names.
Remember that it also has to work with the German localisation of the game. It would be weird to have both Köln and Cöln/Coeln as tags.
 

Von Kasper

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Saxony-Thuringia should definitely be looked at. As well as the Mainzian holdings there.

Maybe they could add an event for Saxony instead of disuniting the Saxon lands. Maybe add the Saxon Fratricidal War or The Division of Altenburg as an event that spawns separatist in Thurgia and Wittenburg for the Thuriga tag?

This way they could create a dynamic event in north Germany while cutting no tags. In the case that Thurgia was released in a peace deal prior to the event they could have the event cancel if either province was removed or just remove the Thurgian cores prior to the event and have the event re-create them.

So far all we have for Saxony is the event trigger for "Johann Sebastian Bach", while having absolutely nothing for Thurgia which is alarming considering Saxony and Thurgia have unique Ideas and Tradtions on top of being medium states in the HRE.

(Sorry if this is a bit jarring to read, I made this account today specifically to put this idea out after only using steam for seven years)
 

Mingmung

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Maybe they could add an event for Saxony instead of disuniting the Saxon lands. Maybe add the Saxon Fratricidal War or The Division of Altenburg as an event that spawns separatist in Thurgia and Wittenburg for the Thuriga tag?

This way they could create a dynamic event in north Germany while cutting no tags. In the case that Thurgia was released in a peace deal prior to the event they could have the event cancel if either province was removed or just remove the Thurgian cores prior to the event and have the event re-create them.

So far all we have for Saxony is the event trigger for "Johann Sebastian Bach", while having absolutely nothing for Thurgia which is alarming considering Saxony and Thurgia have unique Ideas and Tradtions on top of being medium states in the HRE.

(Sorry if this is a bit jarring to read, I made this account today specifically to put this idea out after only using steam for seven years)
Well, their father had already died. The lands were to be divided, but they were just uncertain how.

I think that's enough incentive to make two separate tags (and a Vogtland-tag as vassal).
 

wkscrombie

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As for exclaves (and remember, there is precedent in Sundgau), why not implement something like the military access between daimyos in Japan for the princes of the HRE? I’d really like historical accuracy to be paramount while drawing the new map.
 

Sataniel98

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While I agree that the Free City of Cologne would be a great addition, how would you differentiate the two countries? They can't both be called Cologne. And you can't name one "Free City of Cologne", as it might change government form. Same with "Archbishopric of Cologne". And you can't name the current one "Electorate of Cologne" either, as it might lose its privileges as elector.
I understand the problem, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me not to add a tag for the biggest free city in the empire just because a theocracy that doesn't rule over it has the same name. If necessary, the Electorate could be renamed to Bonn, but that's of course not ideal. It might be worth a thought however to allow multiple nations with the same name, that would also make it possible to have a formable Austrian Empire with a separate flag.
 

thetrue7man

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I would say it should be easy to tell that you can't get from, in this example, the blue "province" to the green "province" without going into the red or yellow "provinces", not being able to easily see that should be avoided. As a real world example take the US states of Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Utah (in this example blue, yellow, green and red in order), they meet at what's known as the "four corners", there's even a tourist attraction allowing you to be in four states at one time.
Provinces on the map are not neat rectangles (and unfortunately don't have tourist attractions to tell you about their borders), so it can be very difficult to determine what is a four corner and what is not quite a four corner. An egregious case I can think of right now is the Lahore-Delhi-Agra-Ladakh intersection in Avalon Hill's Maharaja, for which they gave a map errata. The devs have a very good reason to avoid things like that.
 

jrgen3

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As for exclaves (and remember, there is precedent in Sundgau), why not implement something like the military access between daimyos in Japan for the princes of the HRE? I’d really like historical accuracy to be paramount while drawing the new map.
Has it been confirmed that it is in fact countries owning provinces not connected to the capital neon meant? It could also be interpreted as meaning that they won't be adding the Three Bishoprics in all their glory; that is: A province with exclaves. The first should be fine (Cologne owning Westphalia is another precedent for allowing it), while the second should be avoided.

I understand the problem, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me not to add a tag for the biggest free city in the empire just because a theocracy that doesn't rule over it has the same name. If necessary, the Electorate could be renamed to Bonn, but that's of course not ideal. It might be worth a thought however to allow multiple nations with the same name, that would also make it possible to have a formable Austrian Empire with a separate flag.
As an Elector, the current Cologne tag should definitely keep its name, being much more important than the Free City.
 

KomodoWaran

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Will you add unique national ideas for the German states that still lack them?