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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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mr.kwast

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I believe which will be nice, add new mechanics to HRE and the Hanseatic League.
Will be cool add a new achieviement if the swabian tag will added, like become holy roman emperor as swabian, " barbarossa return " or "hohenstaufen is back ". Colonizing Venezuela as german minor achieviement, like "klein venedig".
 

jrgen3

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Please consider splitting Drenthe and Groningen, this would add all the 7 Provinces of the Netherlands(with an extra holland province)
Um... The Seven Provinces of the Netherlands are already represented. The provinces were:
  1. Duchy of Guelders
  2. County of Holland
  3. County of Zeeland
  4. Lordship of Utrecht
  5. Lordship of Overijssel
  6. Lordship of Frisia
  7. Lordship of Groningen
Drenthe was never one of the seven provinces, as it was a "special" part of the republic. It was so poor it was exempt from federal taxes and denied representation in the States General.

Couldn't some kind of special military access exist in the HRE where unless certain specific conditions apply (e.g. rivalry) you can walk across other countries to your exclaves.

A taboo on exclaves within the HRE is strange, too. We already have quite some (Austria, Provence, Cologne, etc.), what's wrong with that.
Are we sure they are talking about exclaves for countries and not for provinces? I don't see why Cologne can't own Westphalia, but I do see the point to avoiding things like the Three Bishoprics in all its glory.
 
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Vaximillian

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But I'd really prefer to have as many states as possible to make the best political recreation of the HRE.
Bordergore is the HRE æsthetic. I cannot see why we can’t get both.
 

Pbhuh

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Um... The Seven Provinces of the Netherlands are already represented. The provinces were:
  1. Duchy of Guelders
  2. County of Holland
  3. County of Zeeland
  4. Lordship of Utrecht
  5. Lordship of Overijssel
  6. Lordship of Frisia
  7. Lordship of Groningen
Drenthe was never one of the seven provinces, as it was a "special" part of the republic. It was basically a desert, and most realistically represented as an uncolonised province for at least the first couple hundred years of the game

LOL what are you talking about? The only reason Drenthe is considered poor is because of the standard set by the rest of the Netherlands. It's hardly poor compared to other rural areas in Germany like the swartzwald or luneberger heide.

Coevorden was a okay-ish sized city and while very rural it was inhabited and ruled over by the bishopric, even the peasants revolted at times, so this is just bullshit.
 

mike.kraft

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Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture

This is the sort of mechanic that's underdeveloped in EU4, at least when compared to CK2. In EU4 these decisions are usually represented by a single button, while in CK2 you'd have to gameplan out how to get your fractious vassals / council on board with the change. If there are negative consequences to these decisions in EU4, they usually take the form of easily stamped-out rebels, rather than the disagreeing domains breaking away and getting allies to fight you for it, or substantial manpower/financial hits.

I don't know how smoothly Bavaria's switch to primogeniture was - maybe they just drank a lot and had a good time! - but it's an opportunity to make things more interesting than reach ADM tech 10 and push instant gratification button.

The EU4 time period is supposed to be about the centralization of the state and absolutism, but those political mechanics aren't really developed.
 

jrgen3

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LOL what are you talking about? The only reason Drenthe is considered poor is because of the standard set by the rest of the Netherlands. It's hardly poor compared to other rural areas in Germany like the swartzwald or luneberger heide.

Coevorden was a okay-ish sized city and while very rural it was inhabited and ruled over by the bishopric, even the peasants revolted at times, so this is just
Coevorden was practically on the border to Overijssel. Can you name another city or town in Drenthe present in 1444?
I admit, "desert" was a bit harsh (there are also marshes and forests there), as was leaving it uncolonised, but according to wiki, "There was an eighth province, the County of Drenthe, but this area was so poor it was exempt from paying federal taxes and as a consequence was denied representation in the States General. "
 

Pbhuh

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Coevorden was practically on the border to Overijssel. Can you name another city or town in Drenthe present in 1444?
I admit, "desert" was a bit harsh (there are also marshes and forests there), as was leaving it uncolonised, but according to wiki, "There was an eighth province, the County of Drenthe, but this area was so poor it was exempt from paying federal taxes and as a consequence was denied representation in the States General. "
Hence I'm saying by dutch standards.

It had a completely different economy more similar to Germany than the Netherlands as there were very few waterways and roads by which they could trade like other parts of NL, they mostly relied on agriculture and shepherd grazing, but there were plenty of large farms and villages especially near Friesland, Groningen and Overijssel, only the Emmen area was really really poor but again it's by what standards. I can argue Russia was much poorer.
 

Em Ay Ef

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this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.
It is beautiful, though! ;)

the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva.
Hyped for these two!

The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.
How do you feel about giving Graubünden a direct connection to Milan/Como in order to properly model its importance as the fastest way between the Habsburg possessions in Tirol and Milan? Graubünden's Valtellina was a hotly contested pass in the EU4 timeframe.

Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division.
I have proposals coming for Silesia. I'm trying to cut them down to a reasonable size.

adding the province of Julich
The biggest "yes" of this DD! <3
 

jrgen3

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Hence I'm saying by dutch standards.
Yes, it was poor by Dutch standards, but that makes it sound like it was a rich province compared to, say some part of Portugal or Denmark, which I highly doubt it was. It was just poor, and should remain part of Groningen or be added to Overijssel. Being part of Groningen looks better, but adding it to Overijssel is more accurate at start.
 

BohemiaPrince

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Behemia Kingdom should have their own Hussites religion and ideas should be changed. Maybe adding the province of Tábor,Opava or Kutna Hora and change of government and election of the sovereign because the Czechs chose their king.
 

Sanguine Caesar

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Overall this dev diary seems to be a good start, however I would highly recommend consulting threads by @Mingmung and @Paland0 regarding the HRE as they are very in-depth and well-supported.

I'd also like to know your stances on adding a few things such as a wasteland to represent the Dolomites, the counties of Cilli and Gorizia as independent tags, Slovenian culture, and a split of Istria, which you haven't really talked about in this dev diary, and I'm pretty sure they haven't been covered in the other ones. Just curious to see if these are on the radar. :D
 

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So, adding slovenian culture and great peasant uprising of 1515? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_Peasant_Revolt Hard to find any literature about this. Would be nice to show those Habsburgs.
Also in 1444 Austria was not nearly as united as it looks in game.
Missing: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafen_von_Cilli

Overall this dev diary seems to be a good start, however I would highly recommend consulting threads by @Mingmung and @Paland0 regarding the HRE as they are very in-depth and well-supported.

I'd also like to know your stances on adding a few things such as a wasteland to represent the Dolomites, the counties of Cilli and Gorizia as independent tags, Slovenian culture, and a split of Istria, which you haven't really talked about in this dev diary, and I'm pretty sure they haven't been covered in the other ones. Just curious to see if these are on the radar. :D
Thanks for the support :) Showing them Habsburgs their place etc.
 

Sanguine Caesar

Župan
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Aug 10, 2017
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