EU4 - Development Diary - 11th of April 2017

[BOSSOVSKY]

Pommeranian as is in the game is the unique mix of slavic and Germanic influences. But in 1444 the german ones are the dominant ones therefore it is a german culture (the article I posted points out the germans were majority as early as the 14th century a full century before EU4 starts). The german Pomeranians were not saxons, they were Pomeranians. They considered themselves as such.
And what was resettled by bismark and murdered by hitler were isolated settlements who had kept the old language. But they made up a very small part of the population. The provinces were by far majority german long before unification.
If you want to know what really happened to the slavic pommeranians the true answer is the 30 years war, which wiped out 2/3rds of the population of the duchy of pommerania including the old ducal line, then afterwards german and nordic settlers replaced those who died. That's where my family come in, came from norway to pommerania after the 30 year war, well the male line did, it's ten generations ago I would guess they got mixed up with the locals so I still probably have some slavic blood. Though i should really have that tested some day, would be interesting.

Pomeranian people were SLAVS.

Here is a fragment of the history of Pomerania:

At the time of the division of the Pomeranian prehistoric Pomeranian practically independent of the Crown under the Gryfit family. The Duchy of Gryffindor, although they reached a part of the barbarian lands, were themselves prone to break up and in 1181 fell into a strong dependence of the fief from the Empire. Closer links with Cracow showed Gdansk Pomerania, which after the rule of the local dynasty returned under the rule of the Lokietek, so that almost immediately in 1308 it was acquired by the Teutonic Knights (Gdańsk slaughter).

Towards the end of his life, Kazimierz III the Great attempted to re-associate West Pomerania with the Crown, wishing to make his grandson, Kazek, the Duke of Słupsk, his successor. After the second Toruń peace in 1466 Pomerania Pomerania returned under the authority of the King of Poland (Royal Prussia).
Coat of arms of the Pomeranian Duchy, established by Boguslaw X

In 1637 the Gryffindor dynasty died. In 1648, as a result of Westphalian peace, the western part of the Duchy of Pomerania with Rügen and the mouth of the Oder was occupied by Sweden and the eastern electorate of Brandenburg. The Swedish estates with the passage of time became more and more in favor of moving into Prussia Brandenburg. In 1720, Szczecin under Prussia became the capital of the province of Pommern. In 1772, as a result of the First Partition of the Commonwealth, Pomerania Pomeranian (except Gdansk) was located within Prussia. Prussia covered the whole Western Pomerania as a result of the Vienna Congress in 1815 taking over its last part belonging to Sweden (Wolgast, Greifswald, Stralsund and Rügen). At that time, the influx of German population into this area began to be initiated in order to Germanize. Many Pomeranians were murdered, or displaced. After the administrative reform of 1818, East Pomerania was a part of Westpreussen (West Prussia), divided into the Gdańsk and Kwidzyn Regions. Western Pomerania created the Pommern province, which included Szczecin, Stralsund and Koszalin counties.

No it has game play sense, if those provinces are not of the same culture group then the AI will culture convert them.

Well, so what? Well, unless the rebels fight for independence.

 

[TheDungen]

Pomeranian people were SLAVS.

Here is a fragment of the history of Pomerania:

At the time of the division of the Pomeranian prehistoric Pomeranian practically independent of the Crown under the Gryfit family. The Duchy of Gryffindor, although they reached a part of the barbarian lands, were themselves prone to break up and in 1181 fell into a strong dependence of the fief from the Empire. Closer links with Cracow showed Gdansk Pomerania, which after the rule of the local dynasty returned under the rule of the Lokietek, so that almost immediately in 1308 it was acquired by the Teutonic Knights (Gdańsk slaughter).

Towards the end of his life, Kazimierz III the Great attempted to re-associate West Pomerania with the Crown, wishing to make his grandson, Kazek, the Duke of Słupsk, his successor. After the second Toruń peace in 1466 Pomerania Pomerania returned under the authority of the King of Poland (Royal Prussia).
Coat of arms of the Pomeranian Duchy, established by Boguslaw X

In 1637 the Gryffindor dynasty died. In 1648, as a result of Westphalian peace, the western part of the Duchy of Pomerania with Rügen and the mouth of the Oder was occupied by Sweden and the eastern electorate of Brandenburg. The Swedish estates with the passage of time became more and more in favor of moving into Prussia Brandenburg. In 1720, Szczecin under Prussia became the capital of the province of Pommern. In 1772, as a result of the First Partition of the Commonwealth, Pomerania Pomeranian (except Gdansk) was located within Prussia. Prussia covered the whole Western Pomerania as a result of the Vienna Congress in 1815 taking over its last part belonging to Sweden (Wolgast, Greifswald, Stralsund and Rügen). At that time, the influx of German population into this area began to be initiated in order to Germanize. Many Pomeranians were murdered, or displaced. After the administrative reform of 1818, East Pomerania was a part of Westpreussen (West Prussia), divided into the Gdańsk and Kwidzyn Regions. Western Pomerania created the Pommern province, which included Szczecin, Stralsund and Koszalin counties.



Well, so what? Well, unless the rebels fight for independence.

There are three pommeranian peoples the original inhabitants who were balts, the slavs who conquered them during the slavic expansion phase, and the germans who in turn conquered them. Each one eclipsed the other but also assimilated them to a great extent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_culture_in_Pomerania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranians_(Slavic_tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranians_(German_people)

And do you have a source for any of that?

Look all you're repeating is the trash that the poles made up during national romanticism to justify a claim to land that was never really theirs. It had belonged to slavic people yes but they were not poles, and they were also almost extinct as a culture having been assimilated centuries earlier.

Look this is really offtopic and this is why I didn't reply in the first place. All you have are panslavic nationalist pandering. You have not a source to back up your claims. And this is not the place to discuss it.

 

[BOSSOVSKY]

TheDungen

You do not understand.

 

[TheDungen]

TheDungen

You do not understand.

I understand you try to tell me the history of my people and you don't have a shred of evidence to back up something which is quite frankly quite offensive considering 2.5 million people died when the soviets forced the Germans out of hinterpommern and prussia! You speak of Bismark well you did the same thing in the corridor before ww2 and the soviets did same thing the areas in the west you got after ww2. When it comes to the nation state every country had blood on their hands.
But you know what I can live with that, what is done is done taking back Danzig would change nothing the dead would still be dead, it would just restart the whole stupid cycle once again. I'm just glad my grandfather's family lived on the right side of the new border (barely) or I might never have been born.
No you are the one who does not understand.

 

[BOSSOVSKY]

I understand you try to tell me the history of my people and you don't have a shred of evidence to back up something which is quite frankly quite offensive considering 2.5 million people died when the soviets forced the Germans out of hinterpommern and prussia! You speak of Bismark well you did the same thing in the corridor before ww2 and the soviets did same thing the areas in the west you got after ww2. When it comes to the nation state every country had blood on their hands.
But you know what I can live with that, what is done is done taking back Danzig would change nothing the dead would still be dead, it would just restart the whole stupid cycle once again. I'm just glad my grandfather's family lived on the right side of the new border (barely) or I might never have been born.
No you are the one who does not understand.

What I mean is that the Pomeranian culture is a Western Slavic culture. And that's it. They were Germanized and enough. But in times of EU4 they were not yet. I know that on each side there are people who have blood on their hands. But that does not mean that Pomerania was still Slavic.

 

[TheDungen]

What I mean is that the Pomeranian culture is a Western Slavic culture. And that's it. They were Germanized and enough. But in times of EU4 they were not yet. I know that on each side there are people who have blood on their hands. But that does not mean that Pomerania was still Slavic.

You don't provide evidence, this is offtopic and you don't change your midn when presented with evidence, I think I'll go with my initial assessment and ignore you. Sorry but in this case Paradox is right and you are wrong.

 

[BOSSOVSKY]

Okay, everyone has their own right. I do not want to argue with you anymore.

 

[Thranitt]

Okay, everyone has their own right. I do not want to argue with you anymore.

I also think it's important to understand Ethnicity =/= culture. If the Pomeranians were of slavic origin but had a german language and style of aristocracy, as well as other german identifiers, then making them part of the german culture group makes sense. It's not only about their origins, or even language. It is about political, regulatory, historical and demographic circumstances. I am sure arguments can be made both ways in this discussion, but frankly Pomerania works well in the version we currently have in EUIV. So even if you were right here it would only be marginally at best, which tells us there in no need to change. Same goes for almost every other culture and culture group in the game, yes; there's a lack of nuance in the game. And that is perfectly OK - this game is not a demographics simulator.

 

[BOSSOVSKY]

If you want to play a fake story it does not bother me.

 

[Thranitt]

If you want to play a fake story it does not bother me.

This is a nuanced discussion. Don't pretend like it is black & white; right & wrong.

 

[BOSSOVSKY]

My suggestion of two new provinces to this patch:

1.Lublana (in Slovenian - Ljubljana, in Italian - Lubian, in German - Laibach)
2.Kumanovo (in Macedonian - Kumanovo - Куманово)

As if what their shape would be a bit different

Edit: In addition, from the Buda province, Pest (in Hungarian - Pest, Slovak - Pešt) and Kala (in Greek - Καβάλα) between Selanik and Edrine are separated.

 

[gigau]

​

The last posts have gone way off topic. This thread deals with sailors and all in the upcoming patch.

Discussions on slavs or on name suggestions should be taking place in different threads, possibly ine the Suggestions subforum.

 

[NorthernXY]

I never noticed till recently the site for console commands lists the command for sailors under commonly used commands. Ha!!! Wonder who wrote it.

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Console_commands

 

[otaats]

View attachment 257302

My suggestion of two new provinces to this patch:

1.Lublana (in Slovenian - Ljubljana, in Italian - Lubian, in German - Laibach)
2.Kumanovo (in Macedonian - Kumanovo - Куманово)

As if what their shape would be a bit different

Edit: In addition, from the Buda province, Pest (in Hungarian - Pest, Slovak - Pešt) and Kala (in Greek - Καβάλα) between Selanik and Edrine are separated.

What would be your argument for making Kumanovo province? If your idea is to split Skopje, it's more logical to split it into Skopje and Prizren, or Skopje and Prilep.

 

[TheDungen]

Please let 1.22 be the Netherlands Update because it is a strong trade power and it looks just weird that some nations that aren't even big, nor are powerful, have more provinces, and the provinces of the Netherlands are of historical importance.

Except patches are named for the origin of the new loading picture and the Netherlands already has one. So neatherlands patch would have been that it was added which was coincidentally the same one as a lot of dutch things like dutch republic was added. I'm not saying they won't tweak the neatherlands from time to time but they probably wont focus a patch on it.

 

[cool3a2]

Just like to add my two cents to the discussion of Hungary...

Being Hungarian (as well as German), the opportunity to play Hungary is why I play EU4. Wouldn't say I'm an experienced player, though, rather a casual player, so my experiences with EU4 / Hungary might be misleading as they may be a result of my weak skills. Anyways...

So, to sum up my experiences:
- You can hardly engage the Turks when János Hunyadi is around. You could grant a garantee to the Serbs or Byzantine, which worked to some extend in earlier versions of the game (and actually made some fun to fight the Turks), but it seems to be a suicide attempt lately. Could be it was earlier, too, on higher difficulty settings, though. Well, it doesn't seem to be the right way to me anyways.
- As the game proceeds, it seems you are more and more locked in. You may manage to secure some of the Balkans (Serbia Bosnia, Wallachia) from the Turks, but that's it. In the west and north west, there is Austria and Bohemia, both part of the HRE, so rather hard to attack, while being a thread to Hungary. They have possibilities to expand (HRE, Italy, Switzerland, maybe Poland), while Hungary soon is locked in. Then there is Poland. Guess I could expand there, but I prefer to ally with them to block out the Russians and as some help against the Ottomans. Maybe I could ally with Austria instead, but I don't want to. So, once the Balkans are divided by Hungary and the Ottomans, the game starts to be boring: you just wait to be invaded by the Turks (who can expand easily as well, BTW).
- Another aspect, why the later game gets boring is that there are no flavour events.
- I believe that I also noticed that the Ottomans seem to participate in the 30 years war - as muslims, why should they have?

I think these are the aspects that should be addressed and I doubt, that adding some provinces would suit that,

To add to some suggestions that have been made here:
- I think making Croatia a junior partner of a Personal Union is not a good idea. It might be fair to the Croatians and it might be realistic, but it would make Hungary less stable, I think.
- As of the carpathian culturegroup, it's true that it's pretty much invented and that the Slovaks are closer to Czechs than Hungarians. Still, I guess it's necessary to keep Hungary stable. Hungary had internal problems, but - atleast in the timeframe of EU4 - not due to cultural differences - the game should therefore not manufacture this kind of troubles. Similar things could be said about Transylvanian culture, although I'd like to see the Székelys, too.
- Considering these first two points, they sacrifice some realism to make Hungary interesting. To continue the matter of realism, I believe some people mix realism with the way history actually turned out to be in reality. Thus, they seem to think that the Ottomans ripping of Hungary is realistic and thus need to take place (I am not saying that this point of view would have been suggested in this thread, though). Point is, the game starts in 1444, whereas Mohács was only in 1526 - a lot of time to change things. Also, as stated here, Hungary was pretty strong under Corvinus in the 15th century. If he would have a heir with a strong claim, internal troubles - which certainly contributed to the Turks victory - might have never occured. Meanwhile, the Turks could have had their own internal crisis... Or the sultan might have been killed at Mohács, who knows? Point is, don't stick too much to how things actually have happened. If that is what you want, please read a history book This ways, I am against an internal crisis caused by an event after the death of Corvinus as it's perfectly possible, that he would have had a legitimated son or - would he have lived longer - would have managed to secure the throne for his 'bastard'.

All in all, I made rather few suggestions on what to change, I know. Thing is, don't know how to improve on Hungarys situation... One suggestion I'd like to make, though, is to take a look at the hungarian provinces names mod (was outdated the last time I checked it) to incooperate some aspects. Also, last time I played, there were two provinces called Szepes (german localization) - please fix...

 

[THE_6r]

Darkfireslide did a pretty interesting video on the changes to navies (link's right here:

). Go watch that because it does have some good points in it about navies being somewhat unnecessacary right now. I like how Paradox is trying to make navies better but, in my opinion, they need to really buff the living daylights out of them to make them worthwhile because now I rarely, if at all, use navies even when I play with console commands. Begging over.

Also I am not in any way trying to saying Paradox shouldn't do what they're going to do. They should, but they need to go further with, probably, another expansion based around a naval nation (like Britain, Netherlands, Norway, Malaya, or Champa). It would also be a good excuse to buff Sikhism so that it's viable.

 

[Rikissa]

The biggest problem with naval gameplay right now is that you can't fight decisive naval battles, the AI will always withdraw from the battle if it is losing - and with naval battles, this often means you will just sink one or two ships or even none if you're unlucky. This makes preventing armies from landing a crapshoot, any fleet you attack will be back after a few months. Of course you can "hunt enemy fleets", but in my experience automated fleets are likely to go off into some far-flung corner and miss the ships which are landing troops.

 

[Maggnuss]

Since this patch is about Hungary, it is the perfect time to implement the Habsburg Military Frontier in-game. The Ottoman Sipahi were notorious raiders who depopulated any territory within 100km of the hungarian border. This caused the great decline of Hungary and Croatia as their lands were absolutely devasted: No one wanted to live anywhere near the border.

Hungary settled large amounts of serbs and vlachs to defend those territories in the early 17th century. They were known as "Krajshnici" or bordermen. Basically, the cossacks of the balkans, in every possible way. Same lifestyle and mentality.
I can think of a cool mechanic for the game that will make Hungary more interesting, and also buff the Ottomans because ,of course, the Ottomans need a buff .

Ottomans:

• Ability to raid non-muslim border provinces. Similar mechanic to naval raiding already present. It should give mostly manpower while stripping the enemy of the same. That is how Janissaries were , uh, acquired . Also, it should incur War Exhaustion.
  
• Program the AI to place cavalry armies in borders provinces during a truce to weaken enemies. "Clicking" on the raid button should activate the mechanic. Or maybe make it like the horde razing but only usable enemy border provinces. AI should do it constantly.
• This will make Ottomans an absolute nightmare to deal with. While waiting for AE to decrease, they can still soften their targets. And replenish manpower for the upcoming war.
• Raided provinces should get 'pillaged' modifier. All such places with have a very high MTTH where population flees to non-pillaged places. Sort of like the event where serfs migrate to capital but more damaging: A province should lose at least 2/2/2 every time the event fires. All should quickly become useless 1/1/1 territories.
• Destinations of those refugees should get buffed but at the cost of increased autonomy.

Habsurgs:

• Give Hungary / Austria the Statuta Valachorum decision. It allows for the events below to trigger. The immediate effect is unrest / separatism in croatian provinces. Historically, Croatia did not like ceding direct control of her lands to Vienna.
• Krajshnici settlements: Give a 'pillaged' province to the Cossack estate. Since Hungary has no steppe province, this event is the only way for Hungary to have cossacks. It should be impossible to manually revoke cossack estates on non-steppe territory. What do these Cossacks do, besides the already in-game stuff? They reduce development cost by 15% to help recovery; They make it harder for Ottomans to raid, less manpower is transfered on average, and less development is lost; They increase coring cost by 50%.
• Note that the above mentioned effect are provided by a province modifier, not the estate. So, when the Ottomans conquer a province, the cossacks are removed but the modifier stays so that coring stays harder. If the Ottomans make it into a state, the cossack estate should automaticaly return.

• Great serb migration: Every cossack province should have a MTTH to flip culture/religion to that of Serbia (or any culture that is under Ottoman control like greek, bulgarian, albanian, etc). The event comes with a large buff to development too. At the same time serbian provinces should lose development and flip culture to albanian or bulgarian. Kosovo is the famous example of this: It lost serbian majority sometime after 1700.

Krajina:

• New TAG: A christian horde composed of whichever balkan people who settled Hungary. Uses the Nemanjic dynasty coat of arms. Croatia will need at least 1 more province to properly represent them.

Byzantium:

• The romans had, quite possibly, the first Cossacks: The Akritai! If a player revives the Phoenix, he should have the ability to reform the Akritai and place them in all provinces that border muslims / hordes. Just like in the days of old.

 

[otaats]

I like most of your ideas. I will comment on two topics:

Ottomans. Indeed, the Ottomans were the greatest force in the world for centuries, but there's something very unrewarding and too "AI" in my opinion - the Ottomans ALWAYS ally France in the first 50-ish years. This makes it impossible to make any anti-Ottoman campaign even remotely possible or enjoyable, or even playable. I know about the Franco-Ottoman alliance, but that alliance took place sometime in 16th century. At least give players a fighting chance in the first 50 years or so.

Anyways, @Maggnuss has a great idea about Hungarian Military Frontier (Krajina). But as far as i know, the Hungarians used Serbs as hussar/border fighters ever since Serbia was annexed by the Ottomans. Military Frontier itself was created in 16th century as far as i know, so a version of it could be implemented much sooner IMO. I also love the idea of making events that shifts cultures if Serbs/Ottomans occupy certain provinces after 17th century, but i think some things need to be left to be up to the player.

PS What do you mean by tagging Krajina with Nemanjic coat of arms? I might have an idea for flag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Serbia_(Habsburg)