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EU4 - Development Diary - 10th of November

Hey everyone! So when we introduced the new natives mechanics several of you were asking why we weren’t changing Totemism as well while at it. So since then and while I was working on the Sikh Gurus and Zoroastrianism I figured I should give it a shot and try to give them something as many of you were pointing out, it is one of the major religions at the start of the game and it deserves some love. Be warned a lot of work in progress values & especially really bad coder art will be shown!

Now North America is a big place, and how we are using Totemism in the game is sort of a catch all for several very distinct mythoses and with that also comes the challenge of figuring out flavor that is general enough and fits all of these as well. What I could find as a best candidate for a fun mechanic that could fit for all of these very different cultures were that they all have legendary figures, and the oral tradition of great deeds. Like Gloosecap of the Abenaki, or Esa the Wolf of the Shoshone.

1604997195341.png


So now as you progress through the game, you can add one of your previous rulers to your mythos. You can have a maximum of 10 stories added at any point. This costs 100 Diplomatic power but they can also be removed later on for a severe stability hit. It’s not intended to be something that you switch around often but I don’t want to lock you in entirely either.

1604998062982.png


Adding an ancestor’s story to your religion will have them provide the personality they had in real life be applied to your country for all future, with some modifications which we will get into in a bit. It will be a weaker version than they had in real life but still a nice bonus for you even as they have died.

1604998135064.png


So with this change in order to keep things balanced rulers who follow Totemism will only have one personality, since it will be combined together with the benefits they get from the religion as well. But these are special and they scale with the rulers skill. This does mean that you can get a ruler with 7.5% discipline bonus instead of 5%. This is also to feed into the ancestor stories where not all rulers will actually be useful to be made into a story. This does mean that totemism needs it’s entire own setup of personalities scripted up but we are aiming to try and match the original ones.

The intent is since you have 10 ancestor stories you can collect, each will just provide a bit of the full picture. It's a religion you build up over time by reconnecting to previous rulers you’ve had.

Also here's a preliminary set of values for the Gurus and their teaching. The value next to the Guru's name is applied by the Guru while they are alive. The ones in the lists are their teachings and can be picked by you as the player. These values are still work in progress but I know people been asking for a complete list.
Guru Nanak: +1 Admin Power
  • Share and Consume: -1 Unrest
  • Work Honestly: 5% Production Eff
  • Recite His Name: -2.5% Regiment Cost
Guru Angad: +1 Military Power
  • Gurmukhi Script: -5% Tech Cost
  • Temple Langar: +10% Church Loyalty
  • Wrestling Akhara: +0.1 Yearly Army Professionalism
Guru Amar Das: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Dasvnandh Collection: +5% Tax Modifier
  • Anand Karaj: +1 Diplomatic Reputation
  • Sanghat Equality: +10% Nobles Loyalty
Guru Ram Das: +1 Admin Power
  • Legitimize Inheritance: +0.25 Legitimacy (or +0.1 Rep Trad, etc. etc.)
  • Scripture Hymns: +0.5 Prestige
  • Masand System: +10% Manpower Modifier
Guru Arjan: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Adi Granth: +10% Institution Spread
  • The Abode of God: +10% Rel Unity
  • Martyrdom: 5% Land Morale
Hargobind: +1 Military Power
  • Throne of the Timeless One: Same as Legitimize Inheritance
  • Protection of the Poor: -0.025 War Exhaustion
  • Miri and Piri: +2.5% Discipline
Guru Har Rai: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Impartial Manjis: -0.05 Corruption
  • The Fragrance of a Flower: +10% Improve Relations
  • One Guru: +5% Nobles Loyalty
Guru Har Krishan: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Treat the Sick: +1 Monarch Admin Skill
  • Illiterate Recites Saloks: +1 Monarch Diplomatic Skill
  • Young Humility: +1 Monarch Military Skill
Guru Tegh Bahadur: +1 Admin Power
  • The Word of Sikh: +1 Missionary
  • All Kings must Pass: +2 Tolerance of Heretics
  • Resist Persecution: +1 Hostile Attrition
Guru Gobind Singh: +1 Admin Power
  • Pluralism: -10% Advisor Cost
  • Dharam Yudh: 50% War Taxes Cost
  • The Khalsa Sikh: +0.1 Yearly Army Professionalism
Guru Granth Sahib: -50% State Maintenance Cost, -25% Regiment Drill Loss
  • Eternally Living Guru: -10% Development Cost
  • Divine Justice: 10% Trade Efficiency
  • The Unchanging Writing: 50% Drill Gain Modifier

And that is it for today! Thanks for reading and we’ll see you next week!
 
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Could you reduce the penalty Pagan nations have from converting to a different religion through decision? While new mechanics for Totemist are good, it would also be nice if converting to a Christian religion was possible as well. Currently it costs 4 stability and is much worse than forcing rebels to convert you. It's weird to have Totemist be this religion that gets better over time and abandoning it cost so much compared to using rebels.
 
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Sounds very fun, question, currently if a nation stays Totemist (or many other American religions) they wont get map discoveries after they reform unless they switch to another religion (usually catholic), this is a leftover from the old Westernization mechanic, will American religions finally get the ability to read maps in this patch?
 
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Wow, these religion mechanic changes/additions have been really good! Thank you Groogy!
One thing I'd think would be interesting is if each culture/culture group had a starting ancestor like Glooscap, Wisakedjak, Wakan Tanka, etc. which has a better bonus than rulers. There are certainly plenty of Native American creator gods which we know about and can use.
 
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This is amazing. Awesome, been waiting for Totemist upodate for a loooooong time. So, can we expect mission trees for North Americans? Also, will there be at least minimal mission tree expantion for Mesoamericans? can you tease on that?
 
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I'd like it more if rulers could still have multiple personality traits and allow the state to pick one. Kinda reflective how characters of legend are often portrayed more one dimensional than they were irl. Still really love the overhaul of totemism overall though!
 
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I'm interested in the new feature but when last week i've read about a religion that hadn't been touched by upgrades i was hoping for Judaism
Any possible future for that religion?
 
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Will Defend of the Faith work the same way for Totemists?

Almost assuredly any non-abrahamic faith will work the same way as all other non-abrahamic faiths.

I like these changes to minor religions, I wish there was at least a way to represent biggest minority religion though.

For example when colonising new world conversion of these territories was a gradual and sometimes syncretic process. Maybe last converted religion can become a "minority religion" and provide both some bonuses and maluses if they are an accepted culture? You could just represent it as a smaller icon next to the big religion icon in the province tab. Similarly Zoroastrianism and Sikhism were both represented as minority religions in foreign provinces.

When did syncretism happen? From what I understand most of the natives died out.

As the resident cheerleader for Sikh:

Nanak - 1480 -> 1539
Angad - -> 1552
Amar Das - -> 1574
Ram Das-> 1581
Arjan - -> 1606
Hardobind -> 1644
Har Rai -> 1661
Har Krishan -> 1665
Tegh Bahadur -> 1675
Gobind Singh -> 1708
Granth Sahib -> Permament

Now; on top of the baseline +10% Morale and -10% Military Tech Cost; Sihks get +1 MP per month for about 200 years, and then get a pretty massive -50% State Maintainance Cost and -25% Drill Loss.

Sihk's absolute peak of Hargobind and Singh are nerfed; as 5% Discipline for those periods are gone. However; after Arjan they can activate 5% Morale, and after Hargobind they can activate a permament 2.5% Discipline. So while their peak is nerfed, they can get near that peak permamently. And this dosen't account for Sihk's other optional benefits.

While there's a case to be made for just picking up those 2 Guru Bonuses; and using Religious to Holy War everything, there's also a strong case for just focusing on India [Humanist is not required to tolerate Hindus; particually with Tegh and the Khalsa Gov.Reform which gives another +1 Toelrance to both Heretics and Heathens] and making an absurdly powerful Sihk India with bonuses from every Guru. If you do this, I'm fairly sure Sihk is the strongest religion in the game hands down, completely uncontested. Who cares if you have -10% Missionary strength when your tolerance of Hindus is maxxed out anyway?

What other religon can even come close to compareing with the strongest army quality in the game [15% Morale/2.5% Disc; you can get 5% More Morale with a Gov.Reform too, so that's +20% Morale], -10% dev cost; -10% Advisor Cost; +1 Attrittion [Or +2 Tolerance of Heretics]; +1 to MP of your choice; -Corruption; +20% Manpower [You have 10% from Guru; 10% from reform]; -10% Land Maintainance [Reform]; 5% Tax and -5% Tech Cost [Total -15% for Mil Tech; which; by the way you can feed into manpower dev; and the religion gives 20% manpower too... and -10% dev costs... see how this all stacks up?]

I think that blows even Orthodox with 3rd Rome and 100% Authority out of the water to be honest. Orthodox has it's icons [So can only have 1 active at a time] and it's peak military is 5% Discipline 33% Manpower. I don't think 5% Disc beats 20% Morale 2.5% Disc 20% Manpower.

Also remember:

Hindus can flip Sihk anytime after it's activation, at a Prestige hit.
Muslims bordering Hindus can flip Sihk by decision, although they take a stabhit
Pagans [Animist/Fetishist] can flip to Hindu by owning a Hindu province, via decision, and then flip Sihk. [IE: You can bring Sihk to Africa by colonizing Indonesia]

---

Also; how do Ancestors work for a Totemist Republic? I assume one booted out of office counts as 'dead' for game purposes?


My take on it is that it is a slower protestantism. By 1550 protestantism will have

+10% tax
+25% improve relations
+2.5% disc.
+5% morale
+10% manpower recovery speed.

SIkhs have to wait until
1644 to get

+15% morale
+2.5% disc.
-10% mil tech cost
+10% manpower
+1 monarch point
+1 toh
-10% missionary strength

The difference militarily is
+10% morale for Sikhs

I'm not going to include reforms mainly because any protestant nation should form Prussia and that beats the guru reform hands down.

Sikh edges out protestantism with military with 10% morale.

Sikh going no conversion and humanist is probably superior economically as well but only just barely and only late game. Never converting means you are still fairly unstable and important events like the revolution or c&c will wreck you.

Going non-humanist makes it worse than protestantism economically due to constant revolts.

I think having to wait 100 years longer than protestantism for the guru teachings you actually want and longer to be full slotted with the ideal teachings makes protestantism better as they are good to go as a religion fairly quickly.
 
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This is an original and fitting idea alright. I like this. It seems too RNG-bound, however.

Perfectly, the rest of Animist provinces would be replaced by actual religions of those regions. Shamanism (which is now fully replaced) and Animism were always just placeholders for religions deemed "not yet worth implementing".

Not that Shamanism was perfectly replaced: it was the religion of Kongo and the Siberian/finno-ugric tribes, and the latter got Tengri covering everything in the far north.
 
Everyone, the Iran and Religion understander has logged on.
Let me hear your suggestion if you have one regarding Iran and Zoroastrianism? Can you think any or do you need Google to help you? My reason for suggesting this was its less possible to happen and AI wouldn't pick up this decision, but hey you're a smart man, I'm sure you can think of something better right.
 
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Better name for a spiritual leader for the Totemist religions?

Suggestions: Great Spirit, Great Ancestor, Shaman/Great Shaman (possible use for animist too), Spiritual Ancestor, Wise man
 
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Hey everyone! So when we introduced the new natives mechanics several of you were asking why we weren’t changing Totemism as well while at it. So since then and while I was working on the Sikh Gurus and Zoroastrianism I figured I should give it a shot and try to give them something as many of you were pointing out, it is one of the major religions at the start of the game and it deserves some love. Be warned a lot of work in progress values & especially really bad coder art will be shown!

Now North America is a big place, and how we are using Totemism in the game is sort of a catch all for several very distinct mythoses and with that also comes the challenge of figuring out flavor that is general enough and fits all of these as well. What I could find as a best candidate for a fun mechanic that could fit for all of these very different cultures were that they all have legendary figures, and the oral tradition of great deeds. Like Gloosecap of the Abenaki, or Esa the Wolf of the Shoshone.

View attachment 651271

So now as you progress through the game, you can add one of your previous rulers to your mythos. You can have a maximum of 10 stories added at any point. This costs 100 Diplomatic power but they can also be removed later on for a severe stability hit. It’s not intended to be something that you switch around often but I don’t want to lock you in entirely either.

View attachment 651275

Adding an ancestor’s story to your religion will have them provide the personality they had in real life be applied to your country for all future, with some modifications which we will get into in a bit. It will be a weaker version than they had in real life but still a nice bonus for you even as they have died.

View attachment 651276

So with this change in order to keep things balanced rulers who follow Totemism will only have one personality, since it will be combined together with the benefits they get from the religion as well. But these are special and they scale with the rulers skill. This does mean that you can get a ruler with 7.5% discipline bonus instead of 5%. This is also to feed into the ancestor stories where not all rulers will actually be useful to be made into a story. This does mean that totemism needs it’s entire own setup of personalities scripted up but we are aiming to try and match the original ones.

The intent is since you have 10 ancestor stories you can collect, each will just provide a bit of the full picture. It's a religion you build up over time by reconnecting to previous rulers you’ve had.

Also here's a preliminary set of values for the Gurus and their teaching. The value next to the Guru's name is applied by the Guru while they are alive. The ones in the lists are their teachings and can be picked by you as the player. These values are still work in progress but I know people been asking for a complete list.
Guru Nanak: +1 Admin Power
  • Share and Consume: -1 Unrest
  • Work Honestly: 5% Production Eff
  • Recite His Name: -2.5% Regiment Cost
Guru Angad: +1 Military Power
  • Gurmukhi Script: -5% Tech Cost
  • Temple Langar: +10% Church Loyalty
  • Wrestling Akhara: +0.1 Yearly Army Professionalism
Guru Amar Das: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Dasvnandh Collection: +5% Tax Modifier
  • Anand Karaj: +1 Diplomatic Reputation
  • Sanghat Equality: +10% Nobles Loyalty
Guru Ram Das: +1 Admin Power
  • Legitimize Inheritance: +0.25 Legitimacy (or +0.1 Rep Trad, etc. etc.)
  • Scripture Hymns: +0.5 Prestige
  • Masand System: +10% Manpower Modifier
Guru Arjan: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Adi Granth: +10% Institution Spread
  • The Abode of God: +10% Rel Unity
  • Martyrdom: 5% Land Morale
Hargobind: +1 Military Power
  • Throne of the Timeless One: Same as Legitimize Inheritance
  • Protection of the Poor: -0.025 War Exhaustion
  • Miri and Piri: +2.5% Discipline
Guru Har Rai: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Impartial Manjis: -0.05 Corruption
  • The Fragrance of a Flower: +10% Improve Relations
  • One Guru: +5% Nobles Loyalty
Guru Har Krishan: +1 Diplomatic Power
  • Treat the Sick: +1 Monarch Admin Skill
  • Illiterate Recites Saloks: +1 Monarch Diplomatic Skill
  • Young Humility: +1 Monarch Military Skill
Guru Tegh Bahadur: +1 Admin Power
  • The Word of Sikh: +1 Missionary
  • All Kings must Pass: +2 Tolerance of Heretics
  • Resist Persecution: +1 Hostile Attrition
Guru Gobind Singh: +1 Admin Power
  • Pluralism: -10% Advisor Cost
  • Dharam Yudh: 50% War Taxes Cost
  • The Khalsa Sikh: +0.1 Yearly Army Professionalism
Guru Granth Sahib: -50% State Maintenance Cost, -25% Regiment Drill Loss
  • Eternally Living Guru: -10% Development Cost
  • Divine Justice: 10% Trade Efficiency
  • The Unchanging Writing: 50% Drill Gain Modifier

And that is it for today! Thanks for reading and we’ll see you next week!
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
 
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Will any nations have any legendary ancestors available on 1444?
 
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What I could find as a best candidate for a fun mechanic that could fit for all of these very different cultures were that they all have legendary figures, and the oral tradition of great deeds

Is there any society anywhere that doesn't have legendary figures and a tradition of great deeds?
Now more important to the present subject, did legends about past leaders have a significant influence on religious practice among the Native Americans? I don't believe that to be the case. Many tribes had legends about founding religious rituals. However, the ritual was the important thing not the founder; who might not even have a name in the story.
This mechanic also conflicts with beliefs among several tribes in the western US that you should never mention the dead. Some tribes took it so far that if a person's name was derived from a common word, that word had to be replaced in their language.

[Edit]
I fairness, I'll add the counter argument that a number of tribes, mostly in the southeastern US, preserved the remains of dead chiefs and may have practiced some kind of ancestor worship. However (counter argument to the counter argument) we don't really know the context for preserving these remains and the practice didn't last throughout the period covered by the game.
 
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