EU4 - Development Diary - 10th of January 2017

[Red Death]

So how does this relate to nationals that can't do most of these objectives? Like the African Nations or the tribes in North and South America? Or even in Asia?

A while back Johan showed they added support for alternative objectives, and gave an example. I assume those are here as well, though its curious he did not show any. The "Create a Colonial Empire" objectve is physically impossible if your capital is in a colonial region for example.

 

[RagingJaws]

Yikes. I guess I'm in the really tiny minority of players that like what I've been reading/seeing.

Complaints about the game being Eurocentric are ridiculous though. It's very name is Europa Universalis. Not Americas Universalis or Asia Universalis. Dynamic gameplay is great, something that every game should try to embrace somewhere, but I still expect some things to be leaning more eurocentric.

As far as dynamic ages in particular, triggered by in game events/situations, would that not force the players hand in terms of choice? Which seems to be the loudest complaint, the feeling of being "railroaded" in decisions made while playing. The campaign system suggestion isn't any different in spirit. I'd be far more worried about constant bugs or triggers not being met in a dynamic system, that puts pressure on the player to force age changes.

My overall point is quite simple. The Ages system seems to be just extra flavor added to a campaign, benefiting certain nations at certain times, that you don't need to chase in every game. I'm getting the feeling every, or most, EU4 players on the forums really try at getting every last single possible bonus in every game. That sounds so tiring.

 

[BOOMER BOOM! MAN!]

Yikes. I guess I'm in the really tiny minority of players that like what I've been reading/seeing.

Complaints about the game being Eurocentric are ridiculous though. It's very name is Europa Universalis. Not Americas Universalis or Asia Universalis..

Well then why even give us the option to even play as any nations outside of Europe then?

 

[RagingJaws]

Well then why even give us the option to even play as any nations outside of Europe then?

For a more difficult, in some cases, game? Why do most games come with multiple difficulty settings?

 

[Red Death]

Since the last development diary, we have tweaked the amount of splendor you get, so that you get less splendor, and there is now a bigger choice of which abilities you want in the era.

Am I going blind or are there still the same number of abilities(11)? Or did you mean something else by "bigger choice"?

 

[kitemasaki]

Complaints about the game being Eurocentric are ridiculous though. It's very name is Europa Universalis. Not Americas Universalis or Asia Universalis. Dynamic gameplay is great, something that every game should try to embrace somewhere, but I still expect some things to be leaning more eurocentric.

This is one of the most overused responses on discussions and one of the least (if not the most) meaningless rebuttals. The title is never going to change to "377 years of stuff". It encompasses much more than the first iteration of the series and responses like yours have a very limited scope that would have ruined the success of the game. Thankfully, the devs know this and continue to try and expand the game beyond its limited entry over 16 years ago.

 

[BOOMER BOOM! MAN!]

For a more difficult, in some cases, game? Why do most games come with multiple difficulty settings?

Okay but what I'm saying is if they are going to add a big feature like 'Ages' to the game then how does it affect the other nations or regions? Because I, personally, don't like playing Europe that much and prefer playing in Asia or Africa, especially after they introduced fetishism and cults to Africa, so I want to know how this big feature relates to that and if it it doesn't then all it really is to me is just a DLC pack that I need to get to stay updated. And once again, if it's all about Europe then why even bother making every nation, including outside of Europe, available to play as to begin with if they are just going to pander and add features to Europe?

 

[Elzephor]

Objectives

1. Embrace protestantism or reformed as your state religion.
2. Humanism or Religious Ideagroup full.
3. Convert ten provinces of a different religion..
4. Gain at least 5 colonial nations.
5. Own all provinces of your culturegroup.
6. Gain trade-bonus in spice or chinaware or silk
7. Forceconvert another nation.

Happy to see that 6/7 of those objectives work for nations outside of Europe. Ming will be getting lots of splendor from 5 and 6 already, and just about anyone could get the rest (except for Protestantism, I guess). It would be nice if #1 was different for nations outside of Europe though.

 

[RagingJaws]

This is one of the most overused responses on discussions and one of the least (if not the most) meaningless rebuttals. The title is never going to change to "377 years of stuff". It encompasses much more than the first iteration of the series and responses like yours have a very limited scope that would have ruined the success of the game. Thankfully, the devs know this and continue to try and expand the game beyond its limited entry over 16 years ago.

I'll grant that the argument I used is often thrown about but there is a caveat to all that. While I believe that a healthy amount of development should focus on Europe, I'm not opposed to having kingdoms, hordes, and tribal nations outside of that content having a shot at a place in the sun. What I don't want is complete parity, outside of great effort on the part of a human player. I get the feeling that I'm in the minority on that.

Okay but what I'm saying is if they are going to add a big feature like 'Ages' to the game then how does it affect the other nations or regions? Because I, personally, don't like playing Europe that much and prefer playing in Asia or Africa, especially after they introduced fetishism and cults to Africa, so I want to know how this big feature relates to that and if it it doesn't then all it really is to me is just a DLC pack that I need to get to stay updated. And once again, if it's all about Europe then why even bother making every nation, including outside of Europe, available to play as to begin with if they are just going to pander and add features to Europe?

It's not all about Europe. As you just mentioned yourself, seeing as they added some mechanics for Africa in particular that you enjoy. I've never played in Africa, so I can't be certain how viable it would be to meet any of the first two revealed Ages objectives, but it seems that a number of Asian starts can meet them just fine. Which is a fair chunk of Not-Europe.

 

[moscal]

Poland: +1 legitimacy

EXTRA WEAK!! And nothing for PLC?

Embrace protestantism or reformed as your state religion.

Plus Sikhism maybe?

Age of Absolutism, and the new Absolutism mechanic

WHAT?! Absolute Monarchy is the best normal goverment i EU4 (unrest and discipline) and next buff for this?
Please... first small rebalance...

 

[Homusubi]

To be perfectly honest, the only thing I've really paid attention to so far in this DD is that screenshot. And I have to say Japan looks great! Six province Kyushu, three province Shikoku, San'in and San'yo as their own areas, you guys have really outdone yourselves this time!

The only criticisms I can really offer for the map are that Chikugo really shouldn't be in Hizen as the Otomo had been exerting their loose authority over it even as early as 1444 - it wasn't until Takanobu Ryuzoji murdered Shigenami Kamachi in 1579 to get Yanagawa castle that Chikugo fell under a Hizen domain's outright rule. That, and Harima seems a little on the small side.



Actually, that's pretty much all the provinces I asked for in western Japan; Hyuga, Higo, Hizen, Iyo, Iwami, Bizen, Kii and surprisingly even Tango are all in now - the only thing actually missing so far is a Kyoto split. I can't make out eastern Japan, though, but if it's as good as their western work I'm not too concerned.

I was just about to slam them for being too eurocentric with the bonuses and then I saw that Japan...

BANZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kitemasaki]

Happy to see that 6/7 of those objectives work for nations outside of Europe. Ming will be getting lots of splendor from 5 and 6 already, and just about anyone could get the rest (except for Protestantism, I guess). It would be nice if #1 was different for nations outside of Europe though.

I am sure the other ages will have many options which might even exclude Europe. Since the game is becoming more and more encompassing and referencing more history that isn't based just on a narrow western perspective. The changes to China, which will undoubtedly be a game changer, will hopefully represent how enormous the influence and wealth was during this era, up to the 19th century.

Hopefully later on we will get additional flavor in India and Indochina.

 

[Benghi Bon]

@RagingJaws Just stop, don't bother arguing about and for the Eurocentrism of the game that's far from the singular reason why Ages looks like utter toilet fodder.

 

[RagingJaws]

Nah.

I can defend what I want.

 

[Benghi Bon]

Nah.

I can defend what I want.

Good thing I didn't say you couldn't, but this discussion has been happening more times than my game has managed to crash as I get a bad heir in ironman.

 

[RagingJaws]

Good thing I didn't say you couldn't, but this discussion has been happening more times than my game has managed to crash as I get a bad heir in ironman.

No, you just told me to stop. Which is almost the same thing.

If everyone always agrees with the majority, more often than not there will be no real discussion, and flaws either in a system or an argument can slip by unnoticed. Not that I advocate for always being a contrarian.

 

[net.split]

The boggling part of the Eurocentrism in this particular set of objectives is not that the RotW is excluded, but rather of how weird it would feel to pursue them as a non-W.E. country. There's 4 objectives (of 7!) directly related to the Reformation. While 3 of those are available to the RotW, it feels rather strange to pursue them as goals; why promote religious conflict across the entire world in this specific span of years? Then there's stuff like the chinaware trade goods that rewards pursuit of new trade routes for Europeans, but it just functions as free splendor bonuses for anyone in the world that starts in that region. And finally we have uniting your culture group, something that a number of nations start the game having already achieved.

The colonial nations bit is problematic for reasons others already pointed out (may not even be possible depending on the Random New World generated, impossible to achieve for American natives - even fantasy High American ones).

It's not like this is some nerf to the RotW that makes them harder to play. It isn't. Many of these are easier for RotW nations to achieve than European ones.

The problem with it is that it completely ignores the regional histories of everywhere that isn't Western Europe, and in the process tries to push Western Europe's history onto the other regions of the world. This system strongly and specifically encourages a Fetishist African nation to colonize South America and Indonesia while force-converting Muslim provinces because it wants you to play out the Reformation struggles and colonization no matter who or where you are in the world.


Also, anyone who says "it's Europa Universalis!" gets an instant red X and scrolling past the rest of their message. You're not clever, and you're not even the 50th person to think that's a legitimate point.


....okay, I think it's time for a break. I'm way too grumpy. It's been a bad month. Sorry for raining on anyone's parade :\ I think I'll go look at the Japan map changes and try to be happy instead.

 

[grommile]

The boggling part of the Eurocentrism in this particular set of objectives is not that the RotW is excluded, but rather of how weird it would feel to pursue them as a non-W.E. country. There's 4 objectives (of 7!) directly related to the Reformation.

Presumably, countries that are not Christian would be offered different objectives, just as countries that are not Christian will not have a deadweight objective relating to Personal Unions in the first age.

 

[Daser von Wulf]

Cant wait for next week

 

[bbqftw]

The problem with it is that it completely ignores the regional histories of everywhere that isn't Western Europe, and in the process tries to push Western Europe's history onto the other regions of the world. This system strongly and specifically encourages a Fetishist African nation to colonize South America and Indonesia while force-converting Muslim provinces because it wants you to play out the Reformation struggles and colonization no matter who or where you are in the world.

Indeed, Fetishists also must find Animists to force convert... which area also in the Indonesian / South American area.

its like how the old westernization mechanic basically forced you to take exploration early (or do sinai / crimea blitz play), since early explo is basically the strongest way for completing the majority of the first 2 ages objectives.

I guess "colonize to get splendor points" is a slight improvement on "colonize to get white man adjacency"