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Welcome to the second dev diary for Europa Universalis 4: Art of War. Today, a look at a new way to handle vassals, how we're changing revolts and a sneak peek at how the Persian map is being transformed.

Marches
Marches are a new type of subject that can be created from existing vassals. By designating your vassal as a March, you are giving that vassal greatly expanded autonomy in exchange for greater military service. A March does not pay taxes to its Overlord and cannot be diplomatically annexed. However, they get a 25% bonus to manpower, a 30% bonus to force limits and have 20% better fort defense, making them useful as military buffers against enemy states, or when you simply need additional soldiers more than you need the income from those territories. March status can be retracted, but doing so results in a stability hit and a very large opinion penalty with the vassal whose autonomy you just revoked.

Unrest & Rebels

The old system of revolt risk, with a chance of rebels spawning in a province by random chance every month has gone the way of the dodo. It was a system that has served us well through many versions of Europa Universalis, but we think we have something better.

The new concept reflecting unhappy subjects is called unrest. Unrest in a province will affect how quickly regiments and ships can be recruited there, but it has no direct impact on your economy, since we've introduced Local Autonomy to cover that side of the ledger.

Every province is aligned with one possible rebel faction. Each month, every province has a chance (depending on its unrest level) to see an increase in the progress of an uprising from the local rebels. When the progress reaches 100%, the faction rises up in revolt with as many stacks it has support for, and the unrest is reduced in those provinces - they have expressed their anger through arms and it's up to you to put them down.

Because unrest can happen anywhere, building courthouses and employing theologians is now a good strategy to reduce general unrest, not to mention adopting a few policies to placate the masses. The old tyrannical standby of Harsh Treatment now targets rebel factions instead of provinces and reduces the progress towards an uprising from that faction at a cost in MIL points, scaled to the size of this particular rebel faction. This change means we should get less micromanagement and more direct control of popular satisfaction in the hands of the player.

There is also no longer a distinction between accepted and enforced demands from successful rebellions. A rebel faction's demands are always the same.

In a more positive change, any Rebels that are friendly to you, either through culture or support will lift Fog of War for you.


Persia
Last week, we dove into the doubling of Indian provinces. Another region that has seen substantial changes in our great map overhaul is Greater Persia and the Caucasus.
In 1444 this region is to a large extent split between the still sort of impressive empire of Timur's descendants in the east and the rising Qara Qoyunlu empire in the west. Just like in the last dev diary, the diversity of the region means that it's perhaps best to go over its various parts in turn.

The Caucasus:

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In the time depicted by EU4, the rugged Caucasus will be the border line between the Turkish, Persian and eventually Russian Empires. Throughout all of this, the valleys and the slopes of these mountains are home to a number of different peoples and states attempting to preserve their independence against hungry neighbours.
In order to portray the independent nature and resilience of the area, a new Caucasian culture group has been added to the game. Apart from the familiar Armenian and Georgian cultures, this new group is also made up of the newly introduced Circassian and Dagestani cultures. The tag and province setups have been revised accordingly.

New Tags:
  • Imereti: Small kingdom that can appear in western Georgia (or in late start dates). Historically, this state became part of the Ottoman sphere of influence in Georgia.
  • Circassia: Small Orthodox tribal monarchy in the northern Caucasus representing the various minor states there. This is the primary tag for provinces of Circassian culture.
  • Gazikumukh: A small Shiite kingdom in the northeastern Caucasus. This is the primary tag for provinces of Dagestani culture.


Western Persia:

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While entirely locked in the struggle between the Timurid and Qara Qoyunlu empires in 1444, Western Persia is soon going to be the site of the rise of the Qizilbash and the birth of the Safavid Empire. This region is defined by densely populated valleys with a strong urban Persian culture, both of which the map can now portray in a better way in terms of borders and province density.
As in the Caucasus, including more provinces also allows us to include some of the smaller players in the region.

New Tags:
  • Tabaristan: A small kingdom along the southern coast of the Caspian sea. Primary tag for the new Mazandarani culture.
  • Ardalan: A small Kurdish kingdom in the Zagros mountains.


Khorasan and Baluchistan

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Where western Persia is dominated by mountain ranges and rich valleys, Eastern Persia is a region of mountain ranges and deserts. Due to the much harsher climate, most of Khorasan would often be incorporated into surrounding empires unless these were too weak to control the vast area. The even more inhospitable Baluchistan would remain independent, divided into various tribal entities, for most of the period covered by the game.
The greater number of provinces here primarily means that conquering and traversing this region isn't going to be as easy as it was prior to AoW and will also mean that the revolts that historically started in this area will be a bit harder to put down.

Afghanistan

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Home to thriving cities such as Herat and Kabul, Afghanistan is richer and more influential than the rest of Eastern Persia. During the period covered by EU4, states such as the Mughal or the Durrani empires used this region as a jumping off point to successfully to expand into India or Persia.
The AoW map accentuates the role of Afghanistan as a good base for expansion and a gateway between east and west. In order to show the importance of the Khyber and Bolan passes as routes into India, a wasteland province has also been added to represent the Suleiman mountain range in eastern Afghanistan.
 

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Sgt.Pepper1947

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The most absurd part about rebels is that they are actually a threat to your military. The only time they should really pose a serious threat is when you are in a major war and you have a large rebel outbreak. Or you are just an unstable, illegitimate, tyrannical nutcase regime that has angered almost every constituency.
Calm down, It's only a game, you don't have to go nuts if it doesn't fit your style of what's "right".
 

PostTenebrasLux

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Just to give one example, there's a reason Baron Haussman redesign of Paris was influenced by the military aspect. Sure, it wasn't the only deciding factor for the actual design. But just the fact that even in 1850 the French government was still worried about rebellions so much that it could even consider such factors says something.
The French kings, the most powerful monarchs in the world, on par with the Chinese emperors, Ottoman sultans, Mughal Emperors and Habsburgs, came extremely close to losing control of the country during the Fronde.

In some ways, the 19th Century was the heyday of rebel power. The rifle really minimized the absolute need for martial discipline in order to be an effective fighting force. The technology now almost exclusively held by governments is what makes rebels usually much less effective today. However, there is a reason why Prussia is such a fearsome power to behold in game: Being more disciplined than your opponent in the EUIV time frame was checkmate unless they brought so many more men they could just overwhelm you with shear numbers. I'm playing a Prussia game right now and rebels are not even a nuisance. Why? Because Prussian discipline and combat power bonuses simply crush them unless you get some godawful terrain penalty and poor die roll (you still win, you just take more casualties than you might have). Most regular European armies of the time would have been able to do that to ordinary rebels.

There ought to be a huge difference between ordinary rebels and civil war rebels though. It's when you get a serious civil war-type conflict (like, say the French Wars of Religion) where "rebels" should be relatively equal in terms of combat effectiveness with the central government's troops.
 

Outrider

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Calm down, It's only a game, you don't have to go nuts if it doesn't fit your style of what's "right".


Where did he "go nuts"?

And....the current rebel situation is absurd for a variety of reasons.
A) Rebels spawn without any regard to the conquered territory (A 6 BT/6 BMP province with 15 RR will spawn a 12k rebel stack, even if it was previously an OPM that could field just 3k troops). Having rebel size so disconnected from army size is absurd.

B) Rebels spawn with your current troops. If you conquer a sub-saharan african province, rebels can immediately spawn with your troops/tech (tactics and shock/fire modifiers). That somehow the spear-wielding natives you conquered a month before miraculously know how to use muskets and drilled infantry formation is absurd.

C) When rebels spawn in territories you don't have troops stationed in, you are forced to attack them, often giving them mountains/forest/crossing defensive bonuses. Even IF they don't have a better general than you, the pip scaling means that you will take disproportionately high casualties to beat them. Having leaderless rebels smashing your general and bonus discipline/combat ability troops is pretty silly, potentially absurd.
 

Mafiabrett

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In some ways, the 19th Century was the heyday of rebel power. The rifle really minimized the absolute need for martial discipline in order to be an effective fighting force. The technology now almost exclusively held by governments is what makes rebels usually much less effective today. However, there is a reason why Prussia is such a fearsome power to behold in game: Being more disciplined than your opponent in the EUIV time frame was checkmate unless they brought so many more men they could just overwhelm you with shear numbers. I'm playing a Prussia game right now and rebels are not even a nuisance. Why? Because Prussian discipline and combat power bonuses simply crush them unless you get some godawful terrain penalty and poor die roll (you still win, you just take more casualties than you might have). Most regular European armies of the time would have been able to do that to ordinary rebels.

There ought to be a huge difference between ordinary rebels and civil war rebels though. It's when you get a serious civil war-type conflict (like, say the French Wars of Religion) where "rebels" should be relatively equal in terms of combat effectiveness with the central government's troops.

I would also say Nationalist rebels also have stronger modifiers like a real army. For one lets say you conquer a nation.. you don't just do a mass genocide of all their troops... you tell the troops to lay down their weapons and return home and be good little peasants, now do they actually do that? HELL NO. They keep their weapons or hide them and wait for the perfect opportunity to rise up.
 

blackchoas

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Looks good, rebel system seems like it will be more powerful, I'm interested on how the new rebel system will interact with Westernization

Marches seem kinda useless, I really wish fort defense would give you a bonus while fighting on friendly soil then something like this could be more useful as a defensive zone, would also buff Austria on the defense as they have fort defense in their national ideas

Also someone asked if accepting demands and enforced demands are the same why would u ever accept? You forget that now every time a province is sieged that province gains autonomy, which means even if you defeat the rebel faction in the end if you let them siege like 4-5 provinces they took a fair chunk out of income with the lost centralization
 

Sgt.Pepper1947

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I wasn't debating his argument. The way it came off just sounded absurd and exaggerated, almost as if it were something real. I won't read you're points because like I said, I wasn't debating his points just the exaggeration of it, as if rebels were going to bite his ass in a few hours and I already believe rebel implementation needs to be improved.

Where did he "go nuts"?

And....the current rebel situation is absurd for a variety of reasons.
A) Rebels spawn without any regard to the conquered territory (A 6 BT/6 BMP province with 15 RR will spawn a 12k rebel stack, even if it was previously an OPM that could field just 3k troops). Having rebel size so disconnected from army size is absurd.

B) Rebels spawn with your current troops. If you conquer a sub-saharan african province, rebels can immediately spawn with your troops/tech (tactics and shock/fire modifiers). That somehow the spear-wielding natives you conquered a month before miraculously know how to use muskets and drilled infantry formation is absurd.

C) When rebels spawn in territories you don't have troops stationed in, you are forced to attack them, often giving them mountains/forest/crossing defensive bonuses. Even IF they don't have a better general than you, the pip scaling means that you will take disproportionately high casualties to beat them. Having leaderless rebels smashing your general and bonus discipline/combat ability troops is pretty silly, potentially absurd.
 

Freudia

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Also someone asked if accepting demands and enforced demands are the same why would u ever accept? You forget that now every time a province is sieged that province gains autonomy, which means even if you defeat the rebel faction in the end if you let them siege like 4-5 provinces they took a fair chunk out of income with the lost centralization

They were going to get autonomy regardless. Previously, you would give nationalists autonomy if you couldn't be bothered putting them down or couldn't reasonably put them down, because the alternative was them just getting spat out. Now they'll get spat out regardless, so why bother accepting demands? The end result is literally the same in this case.
 

Sgt.Pepper1947

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"A March does not pay taxes to its Overlord and cannot be diplomatically annexed. "

Can't be annexed?! Who would ever set up marches for a few measly extra vassal regiments?
He said it can be reverted but with relations and stability hits.
 

grommile

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They were going to get autonomy regardless. Previously, you would give nationalists autonomy if you couldn't be bothered putting them down or couldn't reasonably put them down, because the alternative was them just getting spat out. Now they'll get spat out regardless, so why bother accepting demands? The end result is literally the same in this case.
From the EU4 wiki, a reminder:

"Rebels may break a country when they occupy more than half of its provinces. All active rebellions in a broken country will instantly succeed and have their demands enforced."

You let one rebellion win so that you have the resources to beat the others.
 

EnemyDrums

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The only that maybe can be is if you get involved in a losing war and are getting massacred, with your army decimated and manpower low it might be sensible for them to rise up in favor of a pretender. That might actually make more sense than the Peasants' War now that I think about it...

That sounds quite good. I think the rebellion mechanics should be tied in with the economy and military as much as possible to make it a more meaningful gameplay element. Maybe every province could have their own manpower simulated in the same way as the national manpower has been implemented and the national manpower pool draws from the individual province manpower pools (it also needs a slider and a cost like military expenses and reduced province income associated with gathering national manpower, and negative effect for x years if a province pool gets drained, etc). Then the rebels could draw from the local manpower pools and also max out the economic damage - as if every able-bodied man was forcibly drafted from the rebelling province(s).

I've always found it weird how "rebels" are a "mysterious stack" that appears from a different dimension of existence and then suddenly travels back there once they've lost a fight or the timer for their demands goes off. Why don't these people come from the provinces they're rebelling from? They're civilian people who take up arms instead of running the farms, mills, bakeries, inns, and all the other workplaces in the province, yet there's no real economic penalty when you kill them all. From how I see it, killing the workforce for being uppity should cripple the local economy for decades. In the current version of the game it's really way past ridiculous: Just add up how many rebels are killed in your country in a single playthrough. I haven't actually done this, but for a large blob the amount should probably be in the millions range. I'd say that should feature some sort of economic repercussion.

Edit: Also the rebel demands menu needs to be upgraded to something like the make peace widget, where you can negotiate with admissions (that cost prestige and/or legitimacy) or just end it by total suppression if everyone else is dead.
 

Xinkc

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This looks like it's shaping up to be a nice dlc. I just hope that they'll make loans useful again. Why give us the option to give loans when the AI will never accept them due to that -100 base?
 

grommile

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This looks like it's shaping up to be a nice dlc. I just hope that they'll make loans useful again. Why give us the option to give loans when the AI will never accept them due to that -100 base?
Because they thought they'd got the AI to a point where its handling of the matter was appropriate; turned out they were wrong.

(Also, multiplayer.)
 

PostTenebrasLux

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I would also say Nationalist rebels also have stronger modifiers like a real army. For one lets say you conquer a nation.. you don't just do a mass genocide of all their troops... you tell the troops to lay down their weapons and return home and be good little peasants, now do they actually do that? HELL NO. They keep their weapons or hide them and wait for the perfect opportunity to rise up.

True, but that isn't all nationalist rebels. A good chunk of them rise in favor of nations that have never even existed in game. The one rebel demand I did give into as Prussia was when 50K (two months in a row rising) rose up in Krakow relatively early on as "Krawow Nationalists." Not to mention, when you tell the troops in those instances to lay down their arms, they do lay down their government issued arms in a giant ritual. So, perhaps nationalist rebels ought to randomized as well in some cases (within reason, they can't be more effective than the country you just conquered).
 

PostTenebrasLux

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I wasn't debating his argument. The way it came off just sounded absurd and exaggerated, almost as if it were something real. I won't read you're points because like I said, I wasn't debating his points just the exaggeration of it, as if rebels were going to bite his ass in a few hours and I already believe rebel implementation needs to be improved.

I was just making a point. I was saying "the most absurd thing about rebels" in game. My emotions don't boil over on this one, only really the nerf to IA from conversion does that in this game for me.
 

BarrosRodrigues

aka marcoan7onio
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Dec 17, 2011
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The old system of revolt risk, with a chance of rebels spawning in a province by random chance every month has gone the way of the dodo.

About time and good riddance! All the changes seem very good but the revolt size needs to be plausible/realistic because if is complete fantasy (like the old system) brace yourself for the incoming heat.


the faction rises up in revolt with as many stacks it has support for, and the unrest is reduced in those provinces

Unrest being reduced is not enough, it needs to be halved because if the faction revolted with as many stacks it has support it means that: when they are all dead there are no more men in condition to fight for at least one or two generations.

In short these changes were badly needed and seem very good but please keep it plausible/realistic .