• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Welcome to the second dev diary for Europa Universalis 4: Art of War. Today, a look at a new way to handle vassals, how we're changing revolts and a sneak peek at how the Persian map is being transformed.

Marches
Marches are a new type of subject that can be created from existing vassals. By designating your vassal as a March, you are giving that vassal greatly expanded autonomy in exchange for greater military service. A March does not pay taxes to its Overlord and cannot be diplomatically annexed. However, they get a 25% bonus to manpower, a 30% bonus to force limits and have 20% better fort defense, making them useful as military buffers against enemy states, or when you simply need additional soldiers more than you need the income from those territories. March status can be retracted, but doing so results in a stability hit and a very large opinion penalty with the vassal whose autonomy you just revoked.

Unrest & Rebels

The old system of revolt risk, with a chance of rebels spawning in a province by random chance every month has gone the way of the dodo. It was a system that has served us well through many versions of Europa Universalis, but we think we have something better.

The new concept reflecting unhappy subjects is called unrest. Unrest in a province will affect how quickly regiments and ships can be recruited there, but it has no direct impact on your economy, since we've introduced Local Autonomy to cover that side of the ledger.

Every province is aligned with one possible rebel faction. Each month, every province has a chance (depending on its unrest level) to see an increase in the progress of an uprising from the local rebels. When the progress reaches 100%, the faction rises up in revolt with as many stacks it has support for, and the unrest is reduced in those provinces - they have expressed their anger through arms and it's up to you to put them down.

Because unrest can happen anywhere, building courthouses and employing theologians is now a good strategy to reduce general unrest, not to mention adopting a few policies to placate the masses. The old tyrannical standby of Harsh Treatment now targets rebel factions instead of provinces and reduces the progress towards an uprising from that faction at a cost in MIL points, scaled to the size of this particular rebel faction. This change means we should get less micromanagement and more direct control of popular satisfaction in the hands of the player.

There is also no longer a distinction between accepted and enforced demands from successful rebellions. A rebel faction's demands are always the same.

In a more positive change, any Rebels that are friendly to you, either through culture or support will lift Fog of War for you.


Persia
Last week, we dove into the doubling of Indian provinces. Another region that has seen substantial changes in our great map overhaul is Greater Persia and the Caucasus.
In 1444 this region is to a large extent split between the still sort of impressive empire of Timur's descendants in the east and the rising Qara Qoyunlu empire in the west. Just like in the last dev diary, the diversity of the region means that it's perhaps best to go over its various parts in turn.

The Caucasus:

attachment.php


In the time depicted by EU4, the rugged Caucasus will be the border line between the Turkish, Persian and eventually Russian Empires. Throughout all of this, the valleys and the slopes of these mountains are home to a number of different peoples and states attempting to preserve their independence against hungry neighbours.
In order to portray the independent nature and resilience of the area, a new Caucasian culture group has been added to the game. Apart from the familiar Armenian and Georgian cultures, this new group is also made up of the newly introduced Circassian and Dagestani cultures. The tag and province setups have been revised accordingly.

New Tags:
  • Imereti: Small kingdom that can appear in western Georgia (or in late start dates). Historically, this state became part of the Ottoman sphere of influence in Georgia.
  • Circassia: Small Orthodox tribal monarchy in the northern Caucasus representing the various minor states there. This is the primary tag for provinces of Circassian culture.
  • Gazikumukh: A small Shiite kingdom in the northeastern Caucasus. This is the primary tag for provinces of Dagestani culture.


Western Persia:

attachment.php



While entirely locked in the struggle between the Timurid and Qara Qoyunlu empires in 1444, Western Persia is soon going to be the site of the rise of the Qizilbash and the birth of the Safavid Empire. This region is defined by densely populated valleys with a strong urban Persian culture, both of which the map can now portray in a better way in terms of borders and province density.
As in the Caucasus, including more provinces also allows us to include some of the smaller players in the region.

New Tags:
  • Tabaristan: A small kingdom along the southern coast of the Caspian sea. Primary tag for the new Mazandarani culture.
  • Ardalan: A small Kurdish kingdom in the Zagros mountains.


Khorasan and Baluchistan

attachment.php



Where western Persia is dominated by mountain ranges and rich valleys, Eastern Persia is a region of mountain ranges and deserts. Due to the much harsher climate, most of Khorasan would often be incorporated into surrounding empires unless these were too weak to control the vast area. The even more inhospitable Baluchistan would remain independent, divided into various tribal entities, for most of the period covered by the game.
The greater number of provinces here primarily means that conquering and traversing this region isn't going to be as easy as it was prior to AoW and will also mean that the revolts that historically started in this area will be a bit harder to put down.

Afghanistan

attachment.php



Home to thriving cities such as Herat and Kabul, Afghanistan is richer and more influential than the rest of Eastern Persia. During the period covered by EU4, states such as the Mughal or the Durrani empires used this region as a jumping off point to successfully to expand into India or Persia.
The AoW map accentuates the role of Afghanistan as a good base for expansion and a gateway between east and west. In order to show the importance of the Khyber and Bolan passes as routes into India, a wasteland province has also been added to represent the Suleiman mountain range in eastern Afghanistan.
 

Attachments

  • afghanistan.jpg
    0 bytes · Views: 59.163
  • khorasan.jpg
    0 bytes · Views: 57.726
  • westernpersia.jpg
    0 bytes · Views: 59.659
  • caucasus.jpg
    0 bytes · Views: 64.208

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.105
195
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Turko-Semitic makes no sense to begin with, and is a culture group entirely designed to have Ottoman expansion be relatively painless, not for historical accuracy. Basically, it's a gameplay-focused change and not a historic accuracy change.

exactly, so what gameplay reason would allow to have Greek with them? none
 

Outrider

General
1 Badges
Sep 8, 2013
2.067
377
  • Europa Universalis IV
Moving Greek to Turko-semitic makes no sense whatsoever... Greek should be alone, it's a very unique culture and language, and Byzantium then can easily accept many other cultures like Italian and Turkish especially if they pick humanism

Sometimes I think you want to have a lovechild with humanism. keep it in your pants mister!
 

Boristus

No QA testing, we die like men
56 Badges
Jan 1, 2010
145
158
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Moving Greek to Turko-semitic makes no sense whatsoever... Greek should be alone, it's a very unique culture and language, and Byzantium then can easily accept many other cultures like Italian and Turkish especially if they pick humanism
Or move it to a "Greater Hellenic" group including things like Pontic and Caucasian Greek.
 

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.105
195
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Sometimes I think you want to have a lovechild with humanism. keep it in your pants mister!

well in my current Burgundy game i lost every culture I accepted even with enlightened despotism so I relaized I should have gotten humanism instead of religious... for multicultural empires seems necessary
 

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.105
195
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
If Byzantium somehow lives and turns the tides on the Ottoman turns, it now has a huge cultural playground to play in. That's pretty big on gameplay reasoning.

Mmhhh for what? to make it easier that it should be? Had Byzantium survived they would have likely not be able to hold onto the levant
 

Freudia

Field Marshal
43 Badges
May 24, 2014
4.873
3.363
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
Mmhhh for what? to make it easier that it should be? Had Byzantium survived they would have likely not be able to hold onto the levant

Well, I don't see any better suggestion. Anything is better than leaving Greek by itself in the Byzantine group. One-culture-only groups are terrible for gameplay. There is only one nation in the game that natively accepts Basque, there is only one nation in the game that natively accepts Hungarian, and neither of those nations' cultures have an actual culture 'group'; it's just an individual culture. And I hate it. I absolutely despise it, and I don't see any gain for making Greek into one of those special snowflake useless culture groups.
 

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.105
195
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Well, I don't see any better suggestion. Anything is better than leaving Greek by itself in the Byzantine group. One-culture-only groups are terrible for gameplay. There is only one nation in the game that natively accepts Basque, there is only one nation in the game that natively accepts Hungarian, and neither of those nations' cultures have an actual culture 'group'; it's just an individual culture. And I hate it. I absolutely despise it, and I don't see any gain for making Greek into one of those special snowflake useless culture groups.

you hate it but I don't, I don't see any reason for hate...
 

Freudia

Field Marshal
43 Badges
May 24, 2014
4.873
3.363
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
you hate it but I don't, I don't see any reason for hate...

You think having a "group" with exactly one culture in it, with exactly one nation with that culture, is good for the game? Imagine if that nation becomes the emperor of the HRE. Everyone automatically hates him because of wrong culture malus. Imagine taking any adjacent land with that nation. It's automatically wrong-culture, while most nations have the same culture group modifier to mitigate penalties to a degree. Imagine having a vassal adjacent to the land of these special snowflake countries. You cannot feed any of that land to your vassal unless you core it yourself, until it becomes accepted in your vassal's land. You have to double-invest on land like that, so you might as well just core it yourself and keep it.

The saving grace for Basque is that there's only two provinces in the entire game with that culture; Hungarian has no excuse though. I still don't understand why they removed it from whatever culture group it was before (one of the slavs; I think it was West Slavic).
 

Outrider

General
1 Badges
Sep 8, 2013
2.067
377
  • Europa Universalis IV
you hate it but I don't, I don't see any reason for hate...

Because only a role-playing person would stay in that group. Otherwise it makes infinitely more sense to culture-shift to a larger cultural group.

well in my current Burgundy game i lost every culture I accepted even with enlightened despotism so I relaized I should have gotten humanism instead of religious... for multicultural empires seems necessary

Necessary for what? The culture text to be in green instead of red/yellow?

The slight impacts of accepted culture on RR/Income/Manpower don't seem to justify an entire group. I've never taken humanism for a large, multi-cultural empire, as it can handle a slight loss of income/manpower and deal with occasional rebels.
 

User4035

Field Marshal
32 Badges
Dec 18, 2012
2.993
1.382
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka 2
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Cities in Motion 2
I think the marches have to be tweaked a bit. Such as still giving the vassal forcelimit.

It sounds very good for a nation like Austria who has no military bonus. You keep nations that have some military bonus's as a march and take advantage of their military.

I'm just wondering if there is a historical basis for this march vassal system. It seems very feudal instead of renaissance.
 

Sgt.Pepper1947

Major
1 Badges
Apr 18, 2014
637
36
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
I think the marches have to be tweaked a bit. Such as still giving the vassal forcelimit.

It sounds very good for a nation like Austria who has no military bonus. You keep nations that have some military bonus's as a march and take advantage of their military.

I'm just wondering if there is a historical basis for this march vassal system. It seems very feudal instead of renaissance.
Maybe the idea of it being associated with vassals is feudal but not the technique. Napoleon did the same thing, he basically created a bunch of puppet nations that for the most part severed as a barrier between him and his enemies.The most modern example is the soviet union and it's satellite states which sole purpose was to be a barrier between NATO and Russia in a ground war(Factoid: the soviet union was considering this even before Hitlers invasion). Their are many examples of this post-feudal era.

unrelated note: the Dev dairy mentioned that you can revert your vassal back, you'll just get a relations and stability hit.
 
Last edited:

nalivayko

General
49 Badges
Mar 15, 2001
2.487
257
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum

mudcrabmerchant

Deputy of the People
65 Badges
Nov 12, 2010
3.348
3.558
  • Rome Gold
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pride of Nations
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
It isn't, in theory, bad to have some cultures alone in their own group, because it's foreseeable that there could be a culture that wouldn't have a cultural advantage to ruling ANY of their neighbors. Actually, Circassian and Dagestani would probably fit here, as I don't think they had any especially strong ties with peoples outside of their home regions (Mamluk sultans aside, but the popular cultures are what we're talking about).

And the North Caucasians should definitely not be grouped with the south Caucasians. The sparsely-populated highland cultures on both sides of the mountains share many similarities, but the culture of the settled, city-building Georgians probably has more in common with settled, city-building Greeks, and of course Armenian culture has nothing in common with quasi-nomadic* peoples of the northern Caucasus, at least not in the sense of identity.

It makes far more sense to group Armenians, and probably also Georgians (who admittedly did have cultural contact with North Caucasian peoples, who actually used the Georgian alphabet before switching to Arabic script after their Islamization), with the Greeks than with the Northern Caucasians. I'll certainly be modding my own version of the game to reflect this.

*There were some notable cities in the Dagestan area, but I'd hazard that the area has always been much more rural and decentralized than Georgia, and I don't think Circassians ever built a city on the scale of the other Caucasian peoples.
 

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.014
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
New DD sounds great, and new rebel mechanic sounds exceptional. I reckon the way the rebels worked to-date was my biggest downside to EU, looking forward to AoW :). The rebels also means something more of an internal mechanic, something that the series has long needed imo.
 

Arilou

Irken Tallest
102 Badges
Aug 24, 2002
8.180
685
Visit site
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • King Arthur II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
Greek could be moved to the South Slavic group. There's precedence with Romanian and there was certainly a lot of cultural interchange with the Byzzies, Serbians, and Bulgarians.

I love the suggestion to move Greek to Turko-Semitic though. That'd be a huge buff and make playing Byz even more like playing the Ottomans with different ideas.

Rename Turco-Semitic to "Ottoman" or "Levantine" or something and we have a deal.
 

spyroware1

Βασιλεὺς Aὐτοκράτωρ
25 Badges
Aug 7, 2010
573
712
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
Greek is a difficult culture to fit in a group. On one hand it's a SE European/Balkan culture through and through, on the other hand the Orthodox peoples of the Near East share the same culture as well. Greek is extremely close to Bulgarian, Albanian and Romanian that having them separate is just bad, but at the same time it's also really close to Armenian, Georgian, Coptic, Levantine etc. And to further complicate things it's also particularly close to Sicilian/Neapolitan and Venetian. When I play Byzantium I am annoyed that I can't really engage with these groups... all of them are -30% like Norwegian or something.

I would support a Levantine group, but with so many new provinces included in the Near East to help with accepting cultures it may be more satisfactory to have Turkish together with Persian, Kurdish etc into the proper Turco-Persian culture (altaic getting renamed to Turco-Mongolic, ie the nomads), lump all the Balkans together into the Byzantine group, and leave the Levantine group to the Egyptians/Syrians/Levantines/Mesopotamians etc.

In any case religion should play a bigger role in accepting a culture, an orthodox Venice/Sicily/Egypt is Byzantium really, just 'regional'. Similarly a muslim Albania/Caucasus(Azerbaijan) is Ottoman. With so many 'different' cultures at each country's doorstep we're reaching a point where the current system just doesnt work that well ingame..