Development Diary - 3 of September 2019

Hello again! Welcome to the second dev diary for September’s Manchu patch, in which I’ll be talking about Manchus, Mongols, missions, and maps. Before I get to that though, I’d like to acknowledge the overwhelmingly positive response to the previous dev diary. We suspected that folks might appreciate a few changes to the Mandate mechanic but weren’t expecting such a strong response to the surprise announcement of Manchu. We hope that you’ll enjoy today’s dev diary just as much!

Let’s start with the Manchus. The 1.29 Manchu update will contain absolutely no Manchus anywhere in the world in 1444. Introducing instead, the Jurchens:

upload_2019-9-3_13-12-21.png


The Jurchens were the predecessors of the Manchu, founders of the Jin Dynasty that ruled northern China during the 12th and 13th centuries. As members of the Evenki culture group they share little cultural kinship with their southern neighbours, and a Jurchen dynasty will struggle to hold the imperial throne.

upload_2019-9-3_13-12-46.png


The Jurchens are divided into several clans. Jianzhou, the eventual founders of the Qing Dynasty, and Haixi are settled peoples in the good graces of Ming. Unlike their northern neighbors they have embraced the Feudalism institution and are Tributaries of Ming. Jianzhou has the added advantage of controlling Paektu Mountain, a site sacred to the Jurchens and Koreans alike that grants a bonus Prestige and Tolerance of the True Faith bonus to the owner of the Jianzhou province so long as they have an appropriate culture and religion. Udege, Donghai, and Yeren have much less development than the more “civilized” southern clans, and must also contend with the new Evenk tribes of Nivkh and Solon.

So where are the Manchu, I hear you cry? The Manchu identity was forged during the unification of the Jurchens by Nurhaci and his successors. When you form the Manchu nation, all Jurchen provinces in the world will instead become Manchu:

upload_2019-9-3_13-13-0.png


Forming Manchu is a little more difficult in the Manchu update. You must now own 20 core provinces of Jurchen (or Manchu) culture, becoming a true unifier of the Jurchens rather than simply rushing to own a few key provinces. Manchu culture has a great advantage over Jurchen culture in one important way: it is part of the Chinese culture group, allowing you to rule over China and hold the Mandate without penalties. Forming Manchu will also give you the option to switch from Jurchen to Manchu national ideas - we’ll reveal those another time.

Next up, the Jurchen/Manchu/Qing mission tree!

upload_2019-9-3_13-13-14.png


As before, the Jurchens begin by Dominating Rival Jurchens and Uniting the Jurchen Tribes. They should also consider building Shrines at the Mountain in Jianzhou for an early Horde Unity bonus. Raising the Eight Banners, fittingly enough, requires having eight Banner units and rewards permanent claims on both Korea and a significant amount of Mongolia, opening the way for invasions of those regions.

The Manchu invasion and conquest of China takes up the bulk of this mission tree, and mission after The Mandate of Heaven will require you to establish the Qing Dynasty. The first step towards this goal is of course to Bypass the Great Wall. At the time of the Manchu invasion this section of the wall was held by the Ming general Wu Sangui, who refused to accept the legitimacy of Li Zicheng’s Shun Dynasty in Beijing. How this will play out in the game depends on the state of China. If either Shun or a weak Emperor hold Shenyang while you are at war with them, the mission can be completed and an event will fire:

upload_2019-9-3_13-14-9.png


Wu Sangui will defect to the Manchu army and become a General in their service, and in the process immediately cede his fortress at Shenyang to the invaders. If however the invaders face a stronger and more unified China they must conquer both Shenyang and Beijing through more conventional means. Either way, you’ll also be rewarded with +15% Siege Ability for the next 20 years. This is when the invasion truly begins. Taking Liaoning and North Hebei in the initial war will allow you to complete the Invade China mission.

It is now time to seize the Mandate of Heaven and proclaim the Qing dynasty. Taking the Mandate from Ming will add the Mukden Palace (pictured in the new loading screen) to the Beijing province, which grants +0.05 Monthly Mandate and -2 Years of Separatism until the end of the game so long as you control Beijing. Another early source of Mandate can come through the Establish Tributaries mission; 10 tributaries will give a flat reward of 20 Mandate. The conquest of China is far from complete, however. Owning at least 25 provinces in North China will lead to the establishment of the Green Standard Army, immediately bolstering your manpower reserves with an influx of Chinese defectors and increasing your Mandate. If you are at war with Ming when you complete this mission, Ming will also lose manpower and stability.

With the north under your heel, it’s time to march south. The Devastate a Metropolis mission offers an opportunity to hasten this conquest; raise the Devastation of any hostile province with at least 25 development in China to 20 and you’ll be rewarded with the Cruel Example modifier, granting 20% Siege Ability and Province Warscore Cost for 20 years. You’ll then be tasked to Extinguish Ming completely, removing them from the map once and for all and strengthening your Mandate even further. Last week I talked about a new Disaster with the potential to break apart Ming China. Conquering 20 provinces in the South China region will allow you to complete the Three Feudatories mission. If Yue, Wu, and/or Dali exist and are either independent or subjects of Ming, they will immediately submit to the Qing as Marches. This can be a huge boost to Qing power when timed opportunistically. Additionally if Wu Sangui is still alive and you gain Dali as a March through the mission, Dali will immediately form the Zhou tag and Wu Sangui will become its ruler. This is how we are representing the Three Feudatories in the Manchu patch; three large feudal realms in southern China led by Ming generals who submitted to the Qing. Of course, the Three Feudatories are best known for their revolt against the Qing. After around 20 years, these states will ally one another and declare a war for independence, dishonoring their agreements with the Qing. These upstarts must be crushed, and swiftly. You must control all of southern China directly to complete the Revoke the Feudatories mission.

upload_2019-9-3_13-14-22.png


With the annihilation of Ming and the defeat of the rebellious generals, the Qing can finally set their sites on restoring harmony to China. Directly owning all of China, achieving complete Religious Unity, and ensuring that average Unrest remains low will allow you complete the Harmonious Empire mission which grants +1 Tolerance of the True Faith for the rest of the game. There are also a number of missions representing the administrative development of Qing China: adopting Confucian Administration, Reforming the Censorate, and founding the Library of the Four Treasuries will reward players with various administrative boons that will aid in ruling the great expanse of China.

Lastly, the Qing dynasty saw some of the most extensive and most rapid expansion of Chinese borders in history. The Ten Great Campaigns of the Qianlong Emperor targeted almost every neighbor of the Qing, from Vietnam and Burma in the south to Inner Asia and Tibet in the west. As we discussed in the previous dev diary, the Empire is no longer penalized for failing to surround itself with tributary states, which makes direct expansion a viable path for an ambitious Qing Emperor.

Onwards to Mongolia!

upload_2019-9-3_13-14-38.png


The setup in Mongolia for 1.29 is much the same as it is in 1.28: Powerful Oirats in the west, a vassalized Mongolia in the heartland, and an opportunistic Korchin in the east. There are however quite a few more provinces in this iteration of the steppe. Very large provinces make for slow and frustrating gameplay in this region, so efforts have been made to increase the province density as well as to improve the starting development of both Mongolia and the Oirats. A reunited Mongolia ought to feel like a meaningful threat to the often complacent Ming. Mongolia is no longer immediately disloyal in 1444, though it is a close balance and even a small misstep could have dire diplomatic consequences at an inconvenient moment. Loyal Mongolian soldiers will surely be of great help to an Oirat player during the Tumu Crisis.

upload_2019-9-3_13-14-50.png


The Mongol mission tree is shared by all nations with Mongol, Korchin, Khalkha, and Oirat culture. As you might expect, it leads the player down the path of recreating the conquests of the great Genghis Khan and his successors. To begin this ambition campaign you must directly control both Ih Huree and Qaraqorum - meaning that the Oirats must integrate Mongolia and that Mongolia must defeat their Oirat masters. Completing this mission will establish an Annual Kurultai in Qaraqorum, which grants a very significant +1 Horde Unity per year so long as you continue to own the province and stay true to your Mongol roots. Next you must Unite the Mongols by owning at least 5 provinces from each Mongol culture.

upload_2019-9-3_13-15-4.png


Now there is a choice to make: follow in the footsteps of Genghis Khan and declare that all the tribes are one Mongol people, or reorganize the tribes and thereby accept all Mongol cultures and 3 additional Promoted Cultures for the rest of the game. From here several paths of reconquest lie open. Starting with 1.29 Manchu, we’ve decided that many conquest missions demand too many entire regions or areas, and we’ve instead opted for more lenient triggers. For example, Reforging Great Yuan requires the key provinces of Beijing and Xuanhua, but only requires 20 owned provinces in the North China region to progress to the next mission rather than the entire region. We feel this improves the flow of mission tree progression. The conquest of China naturally leads to the subjugation of Korea, and from there you are tasked with achieving what Genghis Khan never could: defeating the Japanese Shogun. If the Divine Wind does not strike again and you manage to directly own Kyoto, you’ll be rewarded with permanent claims on all of Japan as well as +1 Prestige for the rest of the game. Just like in the Tatar mission tree, the conquest of Central Asia leads to an invasion of Persia, which creates a new opportunity to restore the Ilkhanate as a March. Subjugating the Tatars and Defeating the Rus ends one branch of the mission tree, but the wetern campaign needn’t end here - you’ll be granted permanent claims on Poland and -15% Province Warscore Cost for the rest of the game, in the event that you wish to extend Mongol rule over all the world. If you succeed in truly restoring the Mongol Empire of old, the Pax Mongolica mission rewards a permanent National Unrest and Stability Cost reduction.

And now I hand you over to Groogy to talk about some of your favorite kind of changes, balance changes with numbers n' stuff!

upload_2019-9-3_13-22-37.png


Hello Groogy here! Now it’s my turn to write down a bit. So since the area is getting a change over and the entire balance structure in the east being reshaped. I took the opportunity to have a look over the old Banners and their place in this new world. Their function has always been to give cheap strong units to a nation that doesn’t have a lot of money or manpower naturally. Though clever as you all are, you can always get around that so some tweaks were necessary.

Banners bonus discipline have been lowered to 5% from the massive 10%, they reinforce half as fast as normal units and we lowered the amount of banners you get per development. They also now use manpower but only 1/4th of normal units. So a full regiment of Banners costs only 250 manpower.

Because of these changes we removed their mercenaries-like status, meaning they won’t disappear if they take damage while at 0 strength anymore but will stay around. They also are 50% cheaper in maintenance.

The intent for the changes are to make Banners easier to get a big bunch of early in the game on your road to form Qing by making them cheaper and to stick around even after a disastrous battle. But that they don’t remain as the end-all units towards the end game. Still good, but not Space Marines on horseback.

That's it for today! Next week will be the last in our trilogy of Manchu dev diaries. We'll be focusing on Japan, Korea, and Central Asia, so stay tuned for more.
 
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vyshan

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Question: as you are making the Manchu's part of the Chinese group how does that work with the countless anti-Manchu sentiment and rebellions the Qing had throughout the history? the Phrase Oppose Qing and restore Ming was a common rallying symbol during the Qing Dynasty. How will that play out in the Manch update? :)
 

Battlex

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Any word on if these cultural flips will be used in Europe, dutch and frisian to a new culture group once the Netherlands is formed?
Austrian Netherlands being germanic not French?
Normandy and gascony starting within an Anglo culture group not the French culture group considering the mass emigration after their final reconquest by the French.
 

MrNewVegas

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This is looking extremely hype. I enjoy the mongol mission to declare all mongol nations indivisible, but "all owned provinces" seems a little restrictive compared to the free "all jurchen provinces regardless" of the Qing. Is this intentional?
 

Nadrak

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Read the devdiary, they clearly have shown new mission tree for the Manchus and Mongols. And they also teased about Korea. And have also said they're adding more provinces north of China.
I red the DD, but the question was aimed at the thing what will happen to our saved game. Will the respective countries get new mission trees? What will happen to culture, provinces etc that are being changed?
 

DominusNovus

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I haven't seen anything specific about this, but are Ming missions getting a makeover?
 

Arkhone

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"It is now time to seize the Mandate of Heaven and proclaim the Qing dynasty"
yeaaa, no. MOH is not a deathtrap now in 1.29, but i'd still avoid going further down the missions. No need for free claims or bonuses if you are a horde anyway.
But forming Qing is probably also giving up horde type, which is the best for WC.
Raze provinces for the huge amount of money and monarch point and overextension reduction is just too good, being forcd into a normal monarchy gov type would be too bad.
wish there was an option to opt out from that (or from moving capital)
Did a normal mode WC as Manchu, and i stayed horde up until the end. And formed Rome instead of Qing, as moving capital back to China would remove all trade companies.
Nice work, gives some flavour to the region, but these counties were already ok
 

rimworld inbox

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They are indeed gone. Now that the Mongols and Jurchens/Manchus have more development and generally perform better, there's less need for the gold mine. I'll try to say more on this another time.
"Since we now offer gasoline on the drinks menu, there is less need for water."

I don't really mind a nerf for the Manchu position, but its concerning when a net nerf is not seen as a nerf.

There is more to land utility besides raw dev count. Subconsciously when we conquer land we are evaluating the following metrics:

* projected short term (~30 yr) profit+power increase per development - for even same religion land this value is quite low in the early game as to maximize this you are still raising autonomy to dodge the rebel spawn. Typically, fighting even single cycle rebels easily makes your short term profit+power ratio *negative*, especially for poorly built / poor trade position areas like the initial Manchurian one.

For wrong religion land its almost guaranteed to be negative in the early game as you cannot feasibly dodge a rebel spawn.

"We're taking a loss, but making it up in volume!" is what more dev often ends up being. Which is often okay, as the land will pay off in time and your loan cap still increases, so it still helps for debt-fueled expansion.

Naturally, gold mines top the charts in this department and you can even lower the autonomy and tank the rebel spawn and still come out of ahead.

* projected short term return per dip dev. You're pushing renaissance, so the dip dev is substantial, and this is early game, we don't have much TE / PE / Tsteering modifiers to leverage non gold dip development.

Once again, gold is an all star.

* projected power+profit per coalition pressure

gold is highest here.

* projected power+profit per corruption/embracement cost.

Not nearly as relevant but gold wins again by far.

I realize to people who play the game, this may seem like a restatement of the obvious (once again, I'm just explicitly stating what we take for granted), but I hope this was helpful to explain why more dev cannot make up less gold mines in a lot of cases. Its not something that's obvious from purely watching AI games to be sure.
 
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Caligula Caesar

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"It is now time to seize the Mandate of Heaven and proclaim the Qing dynasty"
yeaaa, no.

You might do it once you see Qing's set of ideas ;)

Any love planned for Buryatia and the other Siberian tribes on this patch?

They weren't really the focus, but the Evenks (Nivkh, Solon) get an idea set. Also, iirc we redid some areas in Siberia so that there were fewer with 3 provinces in them (no new provinces, just different distributions into areas).

There are eight new national idea sets, you'll get to see them in next week's dev diary :)
 

Dakilla TM

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Are all of these events for Manchu/Ming/Mongols available for those that don't have Mandate of Heaven DLC? On the screenshot I only see the HRE eagle, no MoH dragon icon. Mainly because right now Ming is kinda broken for those who have Dharma but not MoH, where Ming loses the Celestial Empire government 20 years into the game.
 

mathuser

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They are indeed gone. Now that the Mongols and Jurchens/Manchus have more development and generally perform better, there's less need for the gold mine. I'll try to say more on this another time.



It's a matter of opportunity cost. Having +3 accepted cultures might better fit your long-terms plans. Personally I much prefer to unite the Mongols into a single culture though.

#MakeBuryatiaGreatAgain

Also, any reason why Buryat culture is Evenki? The people are of Turkic origin and were Mongolized after the Mongols subjugated them in the 13th century.
At least the province culture of Altai Uriankhai should be changed to an Altaic culture and maybe the Tannu [Tuva] Uriankhai province as well. The name of the Altaic culture group originates from that province.
 

The Lonely Paradox

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Are the Mongol cultures still part of the larger Altaic culture group, or have they been split off into their own culture group? On the topic of cultures, are there any plans to make Korean culture part of a larger culture group? It always seemed odd having Korean in its own culture group when no other culture has its own group like that. It limits expansion (albeit in a minor way) for Korea in a way that no other culture in the game is limited.
 

bly08

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They are indeed gone. Now that the Mongols and Jurchens/Manchus have more development and generally perform better, there's less need for the gold mine. I'll try to say more on this another time.

Unless they're getting a bunch of farmlands with Golconda gems I don't see how that evens out. Remember you guys limited capital movement so there's no easy way for Asian hordes to make trade companies. Hordes should not be relying on income from stated land.

If Manchu ideas are getting changed then please leave the Jurchen set alone.
 

Aramenian

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Manchuria looks great
As for Nivkh should not probably control the province of Kalar, miyoo gasan province should be smaller.


it should look something like this
And as for the province, kalar should probably be owned by Yeren
NIVKH.png
as for mongolie, I am disappointed with the lack of new countriesand the removal of buryatia.
Will northern Tibet get new provinces in this update?
Will there be changes in the national ideas of Tibet?
 
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