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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

2017_10_26_10.png


Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:

kaphtor

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One thought occurs to me with this change:

Every system must have a base or outpost to claim it. All species in the galaxy follow this mechanic. Over the course of the game, we can expect bases/outposts to be built in all or nearly all the systems of the galaxy. Also, these bases are fairly resilient, not destroyed by war and presumably protected from solar flares, wandering asteroids and other expected dangers of their environment.

But the races in the game also quickly realize they are not the first on the galactic stage. There are precursors, Fallen Empires and all the various races that leave behind anomalies to discover. Those races must have expanded into the galaxy anywhere from thousands to millions of years ago. Where are THEIR bases? Surely something would be left of them?

This seems like an opportunity to, at the very least, create some additional anomalies related to starbase/outpost infrastructure. If it's possible to claim an abandoned outpost it should still require influence, but finding and repairing a precursor base, or studying ancient technology on an abandoned orbital platform, is exactly the kind of thing the explorers of Stellaris yearn to do.
 

Devanor

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But the races in the game also quickly realize they are not the first on the galactic stage. There are precursors, Fallen Empires and all the various races that leave behind anomalies to discover. Those races must have expanded into the galaxy anywhere from thousands to millions of years ago. Where are THEIR bases? Surely something would be left of them?

That's past of the mystery surrounding them. Why did any of the Fallen Empires 'fall'? Why did the Cybrex
suddenly decide to stop doing anything at all when the entire galaxy was practically theirs
?

Partly of the reasoning outposts can't be destroyed by conventional means, I believe, isn't because they're practically indestructible (because if they were, why not make ships out of the same material?). Instead, I think they can't 'be destroyed by conventional means' because people want to capture them rather than outright destroying them. Much like a ringworld: you probably could destroy it, but why would you? Capture the damn thing instead and use it for yourself!
 

Riftwalker

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Wiz literally says:


You literally cannot get anymore clear than that...Outposts are Starbases.

Also since im guessing Superweapons will be in this patch. Starbases might be able to be destroyed through such means.

you can get clearer. I don't know why people are so against a direct answer, so that it can be directly quoted and not have to use inference to determine if an outpost has all the same rules applied to it that starbases do. I've been dealing with several people not understanding this and so it was not made sufficiently clear, if it was then people would not be confused over this. To be clear, they currently can be destroyed, and nothing in the OP actually says that this is being changed, it appears to state new rules but does not state that current rules on outposts are changing, if it was clear that current outposts are put under the umbrella of starbases(which is never directly said, only inferred by saying most starbases will be outposts, this is an inference that current outposts will become the outposts that are in the OP) or that outposts no longer hold the same destructibility they currently do then no confusion would occur. complaining that you understood it, so therefore it was clear enough, is a logical fallacy of the propositional type. The OP is clear to some people and not clear to others, so it can be improved to encompass all people.

seriously, it's never directly said in the OP, people keep quoting and saying it's clear, but those sentences obviously show no intent to clarify current outposts position relative to the new game rules, you have to use inference to determine that the current outposts are becoming level 0 starbases and thus fall under the indestructible rules.

I don't understand why people are against having a quote that doesn't require inference to be useful.

also, please don't commit an appeal to common sense fallacy, just because it seems extremely clear to you does not mean everyone will pick up on the inferred intent. (I really hate trying to break through people using common sense fallacies, ease of understanding for you doesn't mean you're necessarily correct, and you should still provide evidence and not simply rely on 'it can't get much clearer')

as for unconventional means, I assume that you can still destroy them to abandon a system, a FE can still tell you to remove them, and they can probably be "cleansed" through wargoals or the like. I doubt you can do it through hostile means during a war.
 
Last edited:

Roddo

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Awesome news!

I just got a replacement vga and I'm finally able to get back playing this after a long time. Glad to read this amount of work is being put into the game, keep it up!
 

PirateJack

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Hey Wiz, have you considered appropriating the sector creation mechanic for this so that you could, for example, select a construction ship, click on Build Outpost, then get taken to a screen where you can just click on each individual system on the galaxy map and have it queue up orders for outpost creation from there? Alternately give it an F# button and have an outliner for construction ships, which could then be used as a kind of strategic construction view for the game. It'd work pretty well for a future economy change as well, if you could turn it from just construction into an overall economic mapmode.

Expanding on this, it could be an idea to have a separate map mode for each type of ship. So military ships would have the important military details highlighted and the outliner would be restricted to fleets/starbases/enemy information.

Construction ships and colony ships would share a screen and outliner, which would give greater details on planets in a given system, resources and FTL details. You would be able to send constructors to build outposts and such in a given system with just one click.

Science mode would show all uncompleted anomalies and situation log things. No need to overcomplicate things.

The major difference would be being able to select a ship, then a job and just single clicking on all the relevant systems to do it. It would save a lot of time and effort in the late game. It would also be fairly easy to expand on as more mechanics are developed.
 

Playwars

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That, THAT is the kind of thing I've been looking for in this game, well, even if I'm sceptic about the need to build an outpost in every system, I mean wouldn't it make war goals useless ? You could just vaporize all of the outposts and poof, suddendly your rival has almost no territory left, leaving it all to grab easily.
 

Dan_Daniel2000

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That, THAT is the kind of thing I've been looking for in this game, well, even if I'm sceptic about the need to build an outpost in every system, I mean wouldn't it make war goals useless ? You could just vaporize all of the outposts and poof, suddendly your rival has almost no territory left, leaving it all to grab easily.
One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies.
 

Stellaris>DWU

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So, i love most of this. and before saying anything negative i will say that i am so pleased with the constant development of this game. Well worth the cost, in fact its a steal. A small gripe is that I don't like how every system will now have resourses, makes the less unique, though i understand the will be some with more recourse than other. I would personally think it would be more interesting to be able to mine systems without first owning it, and making owning it a much larger investment. I.e. multiple empires could be mining different planets in the same system, until one comes along and claims it for their own with a star port, and take a diplo hit to boot. I hope we completely eliminate the war goal system. I prefer ed the lest structured war of DWU. There are areas that i feel would add a lot more depth that could be tackled first like the lack of diplomats and spies, mercenaries, bounties, actual trade ships which move items from system to system (i.e. war and piracy targets), more dynamic pirates, and thing that could drive a wedge and possibly break up huge federations so that they aren't 'once formed always formed'', to name a few. Anyway, great job, keep up the good work!
 

LambTaco

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Having Starbases massively increase the speed with which friendly ships can travel into that system (reducing their warp cooldowns and whatnot) would provide justification for needing to capture the station, and also help with the irritation of it taking a year to move your fleet from one end of your large empire to the other. If that bonus increased with Starbase size, it would be like infrastructure. Roads in space!

This is a phenomenally good idea. More people should be discussing this. It would also be interesting diplomatically. Federations could share their FTL link systems, and you could demand use of a lesser empire's network. 100% support this idea.
 

Kayden_II

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So.... Basically EU4 fort system?
1. I haven't seen any fort in EU-IV, which has the ability to a) recruit a regiment or b) recruit multiple regiments at the same time ...
2. Additional in regards to point 1.: In EU-IV, all friendly provinces have the ability to recruit a regiment, whereas in Stellaris, only the star-systems with (better) starbases have the ability to build a/multiple military-ship/ships ...
3. An EU-IV-fort is mostly a passive defence-tool in which an enemy-army mostly sieges down (time-eating) the fort-garrison + Ideally without any own losses, whereas a (better) Stellaris-starbase is an active defence-tool in which an enemy-fleet has to attack (immediately) the (better) starbase and its defence-stations, so that probably, there will occur significant losses ...

4. There're hints, that a (better) Stellaris-starbase could act as a movement-blocker for enemy-fleets, similar to an EU-IV-fort for enemy-armies, but that's it so far ...

Similar to this thread:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ecome-space-universalis-iv-starbases.1052112/ ...
I don't know why people are thinking, that paradox is simply copying and pasting stuff from their other games since there're enough distinctive differences.
 

Stupid Jerk

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I'll need to see more about the rest of their proposed changes before I decide to be excited or miserable about it. At the moment I'm tentatively hopeful and worried.

The things I like at the moment:
> There's not going to be anymore randomly taking mining and research stations without military interference which makes no sense. Borders will actually have weight to them.
> Almost any change to the current wargoal system is going to be a positive one.
> It will make defense stations far more relevant rather than a throw-away mechanic, thus empowering more defensive strategies.
> Citadels are just neato. They seem to function a lot like the Enigmatic Fortress, with its surrounding defense platforms and connected buildings. I love the idea of a massive nigh-impenetrable space castle.
> Being able to field military ships from any system I choose, rather than having to get as far as Ring Worlds to place spaceports in otherwise-uninhabitable systems.
> The increased degree of customization in spaceports and military stations. It looks way more interesting now.
> Being able to expand your borders without colonization expands the options for flavor when designing a race. Your people no longer need to breed like space bunnies in order to have optimal border growth.

The things I don't like:
> The increase in micro-management that claiming every system individually will present.
> Being unable to invade a planet of know-nothing primitives without building a massive structure around their star for some reason.
> That the starbases are always directly around the star; while this might usually make sense strategically, that's not *always* the case, and just results in way too much visual similarity between systems. I'd rather be able to place them anywhere within the gravity well at my discretion.
> This will hugely shift the focus from assaulting and occupying planets and could even make it totally irrelevant.
> That the system has to be surveyed before a starbase can be constructed. I'd rather it just cost a bit more influence to claim an unsurveyed system, with the added risk that you're wasting your influence on a system without any usable resources. Having to fully survey everything will significantly slow down gameplay and throw the rapid-expansion strategy in the trash. (Expanding faster will require more science ships and more scientists, which will cost influence that you could be spending on systems)
> I'm worried that the galaxy map is going to turn into an ugly mess as borders become static and rigid. Replacing the smooth borders with the jagged edges we see in sector management will make the entire game a lot more unsightly. I'm hoping they change the way the lines are generated and drawn with this in mind.
> The "starbase present" icon on the galaxy map looks kinda ugly, though I'm sure they'll have a better one when it's actually done.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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seriously, it's never directly said in the OP, people keep quoting and saying it's clear, but those sentences obviously show no intent to clarify current outposts position relative to the new game rules, you have to use inference to determine that the current outposts are becoming level 0 starbases and thus fall under the indestructible rules.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means.

Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships).

The original post is very direct and requires no inference.

Starbases ENTIRELY replace the old system of Frontier Outposts. Something that is ENTIRELY replaced has no place left to exist and is gone. Anything and everything that is the old system of Frontier Outposts will be replaced. Frontier Outposts in their original form will not exist in parallel with Starbases. Frontier Outposts relative position regarding the new rules will be the same as Cultural Expansion Pressure's relative position regarding the new rules, in that neither of them will exist. All functionality of the Frontier Outpost will be found in Starbases, or it will not exist.

Now do not let yourself become confused when the art assets are scavenged and reused. But that is not Outposts existing in the new rules, they will still have been entirely replaced, that is only their replacement taking a form that repurposes art assets.
 
Last edited:

Abigyil

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Hmm. Will sectors have a starbase limit?
 

Rip Off Productions

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Hmm. Will sectors have a starbase limit?
I think that the Starbase limit is for you're whole empire, and that they will likely remain in the outliner even if the system they're in is part of a sector.
 

Stupid Jerk

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Hmm. Will sectors have a starbase limit?
I would assume no, because they're making it so civilian ships can be built on planets. Since sectors only build civilian ships as it is, I imagine that they'll function pretty much the same way as before, just without building spaceports automatically. Perhaps ticking the "military station" option in the sector manager will allow them to do this.