• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

2017_10_26_10.png


Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:

Matt516

Lt. General
50 Badges
Jun 1, 2017
1.399
1.634
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • A Game of Dwarves
Say both you and your neighbour want the Dragon's Hoard system, but you're not willing to jump straight to war?

One of the reasons I'm super excited about this change. I killed the dragon in a recent game in a neighbor's system, and then after I surveyed the hoard I had to start a war and take a whole bunch of extra planets I didn't want, just to get the Hoard within my borders. This new system would make that so, so much simpler.

I feel like everyone will be inclined to make every module a shipyard

Are you generally capped by resources or starbases right now in overall fleet build speed? I know for me it's resources.

How you describe it is absolutely not how it's working out when we're playing the development build right now though.

This is my issue with all these "micro" complaints. We haven't seen the UI, we haven't tried it out, this is all a bunch of complaining over something no one knows anything about. You think the devs would enjoy playtesting a system that was super super tedious for hours on end? You think they wouldn't do something about it if it were?
 

klingonadmiral

Field Marshal
49 Badges
Sep 15, 2014
2.918
4.512
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
"Science Fiction is, afer all, the art of extrapolation."

Michael Dirda​

So, now we finally know how Paradox attempts to tackle the "problems" inherent in the current border system.
I must say I am not impressed. For every perceived problem they solve, they introduce two more. A breakdown:

it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reac

Which is the way most of our borders have been determined. Just some of the larger examples from our very own history are:

The classic, the Scramble for Africa:

Colonial_Africa_1913_map.svg


The Northwest Angle of the United States, result of the Missisippi not taking the course everyone expected it to take:

NORTHWEST_Angle.png


And the perhaps mot extreme case of "staking claims on unknown territories", the Treaty of Tordesillas:

Spain_and_Portugal.png


The change is especially baffling under consideration of the last example, as it was approximated in EU4 in the "El Dorado" DLC - of which wiz was project lead. And considering that especially the early game of Stellaris is focused on exploration and colonization, why remove one of the defining characteristics of the Age of Exploration and Colonization?

But moving on ...

As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update

This is, for me, the biggest no-go of this entire system. Colonies - actual boots on the ground - should always be possible, just as gunboat diplomacy to enforce your absolutely benign co-operation treaties on primitives. Because who exactly is stopping you from taking your colony ship to a planet outside your borders? Maybe give colonizing outside your space a opinion malus with your neighbours or whatever, plus of course make it cost influence.

there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.

I really, really, really hope this means non-democracis will no longer suck simply because they don't get that +2 influence/month democracies get from ruler mandates.

(Add obligatory wish for more and better mandates)

As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources,

About damn time, I say. Now increase capital sensor range to something plausible and I no longer have to wonder what happened to our space programs from 2017 to 2200.

Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case.

I believe this when I see it. This system will add 2000 more clicks minimum.

And finally ...

For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station.

And this is a problem. As stated, basic outposts cannot build defences. And your actual Citadels will probably be concentrated on your central core worlds, which at least for me always end up as a heavily populated imperial nucleus of ringworlds and systems with dozens of habitats across them. You'd build your Citadels there because a) the proximity to one another makes ships quickly rally together into usable fleets and b) the bonuses conferred from Starbase buildings will be the strongest there. Thus, your starbase cap will be spent there, giving you little or no starbases to turn into border fortresses. Which means defensive stations will continue to be useless (unless maybe during the early mid-game as tiny empires duke it out), as the only stations capable of building defences are located in systems not in need of defences (because when was the last time your capital was under attack unless the crisis spawned right next to it?). Plus as long as there is no way to force the enemy into a system with a defence Citadel, they remain even more superfluous. Stellaris has, and will, always rely on elastic defence as strategic chokepoints are rare and can usually be easily flown around.

(This assumes that theories I heard about wormholes aren't true - if they are, there is exactly one application for defensive Citadels, as wormhole defenders)

just my .02 energy credits
 

arc2611

Second Lieutenant
54 Badges
May 20, 2016
197
93
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
Not a fan of the changes. Players shouldn't be forced to build indestructible starbases in every single system just to own the system - and for that matter, why can't systems have split ownership, especially in times of war? Also, why does every home system now have to have starting resources in orbit? Why does every home system have to start explored?

Because it's really stupid that your species has developed interstellar travel and have powerful enough drives that they can cross a system in weeks to months, but they haven't even bothered to explore their home planet's moon? I mean, come on.
 

prof_doom

Sergeant
124 Badges
Mar 3, 2016
85
2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Island Bound
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars Pre-Order
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Empire of Sin
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
In my opinion this patch will destroy the game. Now everything is happiness, we will see when it comes out.

"No, Admiral Pickard, we can not invade Romulus."
"We have more troops than them, why not?"
"We need to take or disable the star stronghold orbiting its star.
-Why? We are bombing your planet and the fortress is millions of miles away.
-I do not know Admiral, they are the physical laws of this universe.
-That makes no sense!!

I suspect the reply to Admiral Pickard is more like: "Sir, if we don't disable the massive military installation that would allow the enemy to retake the planet without even going to warp, there's no point to taking the planet."
 

OverthinkingThis

Second Lieutenant
18 Badges
May 17, 2017
143
0
  • Magicka
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
Apologies if this has already been asked but how does this system account for primitives ascending to FTL? Specifically if I have a starport in a system, and a pre-FTL civ hits FTL do they automatically get absorbed into my empire or...I'm not sure what the other option would be actually.
 

G-Flex

Captain
33 Badges
May 1, 2014
322
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
My biggest hope for the new border system is that the galaxy will feel, possibly, less claustrophobic in the mid-late game, or will at least delay it, by making expansion much more considered and deliberate, instead of everyone's borders strangling each other so easily.
 

LukeCorn

Sergeant
89 Badges
Dec 15, 2013
83
182
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • King Arthur II
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
I suspect the reply to Admiral Pickard is more like: "Sir, if we don't disable the massive military installation that would allow the enemy to retake the planet without even going to warp, there's no point to taking the planet."

yea, like medieval castles weren't always physically in the way, but marching on without capturing them would just mean you get stabbed in the back really hard
 

Great_Elector

Private
32 Badges
Oct 6, 2017
13
0
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Lead and Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Looking at the queue manegment UI improvements described in yesterday's HoI4 dev diary, any chance we might get to see some of them in Stellaris as well? It is really annoying to queue up dozens of ships, then realize that you need to cancel all of them to put a new module or fleet upgrades at the top of the queue. Same for buildings, if I've queued up a bunch, and then, for example, unlock a planetary capitol upgrade or a building I want to build ASAP like the clinic, I need to clear the entire queue (which is really tedious to do for buildings) then re-queue everything after I've added the one building I wanted to get done first to the queue.

Maybe they could add the ability to drag something to the front of the queue, pausing whatever was first.
 

Matt516

Lt. General
50 Badges
Jun 1, 2017
1.399
1.634
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • A Game of Dwarves
Starbases always surviving combat is a pretty big breach of immersion; it was already bad enough that habitats are invulnerable, but at least those were not directly participating in battles.

To be fair, we don't know what "disabling" them means. They could be wrecked useless hulks after losing a battle, and require a decent amount of resources and time to repair.

We also don't know that habitats won't be attack-able in 1.9. There have been rumors of planet-killers in the past... if they add something like that, it would make sense that you'd also be able to destroy habitats (at a heavy, heavy opinion penalty to all non-genocidal empires no doubt).
 

prof_doom

Sergeant
124 Badges
Mar 3, 2016
85
2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Island Bound
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars Pre-Order
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Empire of Sin
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
I think overall, I'm happy with the idea.
If you make a giant space station in a solar system, then yes, I wouldn't try to invade a planet in that system until it's disabled.

I do kinda like the idea of still being able to colonize without a starport, but with some of the ideas like others have said, it's slower to grow, more divergent, probably an attraction malus as well.

It would make for some fun mechanics around someone else tossing in a starport, and more or less inheriting a world that's automatically in revolt. Sorta like the issues with the Cardassian and various colonies in DS9.
 

apoc527

Captain
77 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
399
1.286
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
And this is a problem. As stated, basic outposts cannot build defences. And your actual Citadels will probably be concentrated on your central core worlds, which at least for me always end up as a heavily populated imperial nucleus of ringworlds and systems with dozens of habitats across them. You'd build your Citadels there because a) the proximity to one another makes ships quickly rally together into usable fleets and b) the bonuses conferred from Starbase buildings will be the strongest there. Thus, your starbase cap will be spent there, giving you little or no starbases to turn into border fortresses. Which means defensive stations will continue to be useless (unless maybe during the early mid-game as tiny empires duke it out), as the only stations capable of building defences are located in systems not in need of defences (because when was the last time your capital was under attack unless the crisis spawned right next to it?). Plus as long as there is no way to force the enemy into a system with a defence Citadel, they remain even more superfluous. Stellaris has, and will, always rely on elastic defence as strategic chokepoints are rare and can usually be easily flown around.

This I agree with. But I'm also sure we haven't seen even 10% of the total changes coming to Stellaris with the Cherryh update. The issue right now, of course, is that defense stations are already basically useless. You can't concentrate them enough to make a real difference against any kind of determined fleet attack. The only thing they could possibly be useful for is to fend off "raiders" but that doesn't really exist in Stellaris at the moment and it remains unclear as to what kinds of changes would make raiding even useful.
 

Yevheniya

Corporal
91 Badges
Apr 24, 2012
25
36
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
I'm willing to give you guys the BOTD on this change, because the border system did need a fix and doing it on a star-by-star basis makes perfect sense, but I'm not sure trivializing planet ownership is the best way to do that. Why not allow planetary starports to also contribute to the system ownership minimum? I hope you guys do revisit shared systems at some point because individual planet ownership is great and I'd love to see this thing expanded.
 

D Inqu

General
104 Badges
Jun 20, 2007
2.117
802
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • King Arthur II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II
I do understand both sides in the "fluid borders" argument. On one side it could be annoying to start a war because the border moved by 1mm and now a major resource system is technicallly "foreign". On the other hand, dynamic borders gave you an indirect way to compete with an opposing empire without going to war. I would really miss this whole layer of strategy disappearing.

Since the game will rely on starbases to determine ownership, how about some "contested ownership areas"? Some basic rules like "does not have a colony or lvl3 starbase within distance X for any faction" would create a border zones where ownership could be fluid and be pushed by one faction or the other. Similar systems were in Victoria II in colonies where you competed before it finally became "your" territory. Perhaps maybe even add a system like "war beween colonial nations" from" EU4 (or colonial wars from Victoria).
 

arc2611

Second Lieutenant
54 Badges
May 20, 2016
197
93
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
And considering that especially the early game of Stellaris is focused on exploration and colonization, why remove one of the defining characteristics of the Age of Exploration and Colonization?

One of the things about exploration and expansion is that you're going to have disputes over where the borders should be, leading to fighting. Yet in Stellaris, there's a magical, inviolable invisible line governing what belongs to what, completely removing any uncertainty from the equation. The way borders were defined was one of the issues that made the midgame so static; all the spaces are claimed, even if that claim was just a line on a map, so the only way to expand is to declare a major war and eat your neighbours' planets.

I mean, considering how little there is to do in the midgame right now, having to continously where to expand next throughout the game is not exactly a downside.

And the perhaps mot extreme case of "staking claims on unknown territories", the Treaty of Tordesillas:

What, the treaty that Portugal ignored when they colonized Brazil? As contrast to the borders of Stellaris, which are not decided by treaty, but arbitrarily and automatically enforced and utterly inviolable?

There's no negotiation involved. As soon as you research, say, Galactic Ambitions, everyone else has to roll over and accept the change in borders, or go to war and take a planet if they don't like it.

You can own a mining station for hundreds of years and suddenly have it flip owners because someone researched a border influence tech or put down a new colony nearby. How does that make any sense?
 
Last edited:

Jorlem

Field Marshal
118 Badges
May 9, 2012
4.562
4.047
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • The Showdown Effect
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
This exists!

I didn't know this until recently, but if you hold ctrl+shift when issuing a command, it adds it to the TOP of the queue instead of the bottom.
Only for movement commands, I haven't been able to get it to work for build commands.