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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

2017_10_26_10.png


Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:

Calvax

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Yeah, and what would happens if another Empire cut you off? The only thing Wiz said about it was amjng the lines: "we'll teach AI not to claim separated systems too much".

Well Wiz replied to wait and see but my immediate reaction is this seems unlikely unless you're unlucky enough to have very close neighbours which spam the systems immediately around you. And if you buy a distant system that is so expensive that in the time you've spent saving most the systems around you are claimed then perhaps you've just made a bad decision.
 

iniudan

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How will defence focused empires, that focus more on building dafence stations in the Starports instead of a big fleet, fare against a crisis?

Because at the moment the best defences against an upcoming crisis is a surgical strike on the crisis, when its still small.
That won't be possible if your strength relies on a stationary defence. Will you just be overrun by the crisis later on?

Well if defense station stay the same and we consider we were shown that a star fortress (which is not highest tier) can have 20 defense station, I think that pretty substational defense, for imagine 20 of our current fortress all grouped in a tight pack around a star fortress.

Also since there is a fortress limit and fleet cap is dependent anchorage build on those, wide empire shouldn't have a vast fleet capacity advantage over a tall one.
 

Madzai

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What happens when you get cut off and what recourses you have will be covered as part of another dev diary in the future. Keep in mind you've only seen a small part of the update so far.
I fully understand that. I'm not saying that the system would be bad. Or anything. I'm just theories around. It's exiting to guess how it would work.
 

Ediros

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Looking forward to the next dev diares.

Really like the idea of starbases and starports. It makes them both useful and much more important.

Question, if you destroy outpost - tier 0, do you lose access to that system? Or the outposts can not be destroyed either like starbases?
 

romothecus

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RE: the micro argument I see going on here and people complaining about clicks.

You realize that when you play a computer game with a mouse, you make clicks, right? That's like...the interface. Complaining about having to click 3 times to claim a star system in a game about building star empires is like complaining that you have to click to fire a gun in an FPS. Sheesh, the micro-horror! I have to click to shoot!

thank god you don't work for paradox. With your logic we'd never have auto-invite to plots in CK2, macrobuilders in EU4, or probably rally points in Stellaris.

edit: to clarify, there is a difference between meaningful interaction with the game and excessive clicking.

If you want to talk about FPS games, think about shooting in most of them: one click to shoot, maybe hold mouse to auto-fire, and maybe a manual reload button.

Now compare that to a little game called World War 2 Online. You had to hold two different buttons just to raise and aim your rifle, and a third button to fire.
 

Gengisar

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In my opinion this patch will destroy the game. Now everything is happiness, we will see when it comes out.

I personally like the way in which borders change depending on the population of your planets. It was something unique in Stellaris, now the mechanics of borders will be like any other 4X space game. Base here, mine forever, very simple.

If I can only have 5 (or suppose 20 with technologies) advanced stellar bases. How am I going to defend my other star systems that have planets? More but we can NOT build more platforms of defense after this new update.

Oooh, yes with troops. An advanced stellar empire can not afford a spaceport on every planet that defends (or at least entertains) an invasion fleet. Really?

"No, Admiral Pickard, we can not invade Romulus."
"We have more troops than them, why not?"
"We need to take or disable the star stronghold orbiting its star.
-Why? We are bombing your planet and the fortress is millions of miles away.
-I do not know Admiral, they are the physical laws of this universe.
-That makes no sense!!
 

nicedream

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Thanks for spaceports rework. I never liked this mechanic. Only one request. Do not tie Starbases to the star. Just allow to build them in any free space in the center of the system.
 

Iyur

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It really looks like EVE Online keepstar concept, but it seems interesting.
@Wiz , could you tell more about trading hub and companies. They will affect entire system with all the planets within? And modders will get an ability to make some modifiers for system scope?
 

Tarne

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Sounds good - "tightening" up of Empire borders is something I've been looking forward too. I am not entirely sure about the "in every system there's a station" mechanic but I'll trust you that it works well.

Are there any significant performance increases coming? Games really shouldn't be slowing down like they are a couple of hundred years into it on small maps (and oh god, large maps - not even going to get started).
 

Purussaurus

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As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

It would be more interesting if, instead of preventing colonization or invasion outside the border, there would be a different regime for these regions:

  • Instead of a colony, a settlement would be created, which would develop at an extremely slow rate and would have a high ethical divergence. After a time the settlement would become a colony, projecting border, but with a chance of revolt and declaration of independence, if the system is not already under empire control.

  • Similarly for invaded planets, it would become a dominated planet, slowly evolving into a controlled planet, but with an even higher risk of revolt and declaration of independence.
 

D Inqu

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On another thought, the idea that your system stats explored and built with mining station may be good for balance, but it kinda goes against the whole "newly risen civilisation going into the great unknown". I really like strating from my home planet and exploring the system, starting from the moon.

Distant Worlds lets you customise your game's (and individual empire's) starting tech, from "Pre-FTL" (aka present-day tech) to "Fully explored and built home system". Something similar would be nice as a game option slider.
 

apoc527

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More substantively, this could create games where not every system is claimed at all times. That creates neutral zones and other areas of space that are not always crowded. I think that's cool and can be expanded in the future.
 

TheDungen

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So long as I can get an admiral with the "art connoisseur" trait.
Ernest Mecklinger? He's cool but my fave is still the Galewolf. Whenever I play human and I get my first male admiral with galespeed I rename him Wolfgang Mittermeyer

I personally like the way in which borders change depending on the population of your planets. It was something unique in Stellaris, now the mechanics of borders will be like any other 4X space game. Base here, mine forever, very simple.
Eh every 4x game has the border extrusion based on population, ok most space ones does not... because it makes no sense in space, but Civ does it and have done it forever.
 

Jorlem

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so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way.
What if I'm playing a hyperlane empire, and the way the lanes are laid out naturally form a "snake" shape? This is not uncommon in spiral galaxies, especially four-armed spirals.

As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
You can still generate anomalies on surveyed planets via script, if there's mods that place anomalies in the home system.
This makes me kinda sad, as I always love finding the occasional anomaly involving finding precursors in the home system, or discovering signs of an ancient fleet battle. Would it be possible to separate surveying into two "tiers", one which reveals resources, and enables colonization and construction, and the second that discovers anomalies? That way we could still have the chance to find things at home. It would also take the pain out of the anomalies that give full survey data for a system, precluding you from finding any anomalies in that system. (I usually leave the event pop up for those onscreen until I've finished surveying the system it wants to give me, so I can have a chance to find anomalies there.) Now that I think of it, it would also remove the reason not to buy map data from other empires.

Looking at the queue manegment UI improvements described in yesterday's HoI4 dev diary, any chance we might get to see some of them in Stellaris as well? It is really annoying to queue up dozens of ships, then realize that you need to cancel all of them to put a new module or fleet upgrades at the top of the queue. Same for buildings, if I've queued up a bunch, and then, for example, unlock a planetary capitol upgrade or a building I want to build ASAP like the clinic, I need to clear the entire queue (which is really tedious to do for buildings) then re-queue everything after I've added the one building I wanted to get done first to the queue.

I mean yes, if you want to intentionally play the game badly you can do that. How you describe it is absolutely not how it's working out when we're playing the development build right now though.
Any chance we could have some more details on that? We only have the current game to project expectations from, but if the system works out significantly differently in actual play, seeing or hearing about some of that would really help to quash a lot of these concerns.

I kind of see what you're getting at, but your concerns are overblown. Wouldn't all non-reflexive actions, taken after thinking to take that action, be mindless by that definition?
I decide I want to build fifty new corvettes, then I need to click fifty times on the same button to do so. I unlock a new capitol building tier, then I need to remember to go back and build the upgrades that it unlocks after it finishes building. Both involve "mindless" clicks, but the delay can often mean I forget what I had planned to do, especially if I start the build in one session and come back later. It could end up easy to simply forget to backfill for a while, as you wait for Influence to build up. I wonder if letting people queue up systems to get outposts even if they don't have the Influence would negate some of the concern, like how you can order fleets to upgrade if you don't have enough minerals, and they only start upgrading when you have enough.
 

Vorpcoi

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This is awesome! Especially the feature civilian ships can repair at the planet. This sets a good base for extra civilian ships for a civilian fleet overhaul in a later DLC (trade ships, transport ships, comms ships, etc ...).
 

Zergor

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The micro question essentially boil down to one question :

-Does the order and/or choice of clicks has a real interest ? If yes the micro is useful. If no it's just tedious for no reason.

Example one : Taking system. The order you take them has a strategic purpose and I feel pretty ok spending time clicking because it's an interesting thing.

Example 2 : Managing slave vs free in caste system. People will always chose to have slaves on tiles they have a bonus given the opportunity (mineral, food). So it was automated.

There are of course areas that are a bit grey like the mining stations you basically end up building all in the late game and the order is not very important. But it's important in the early game where having a +2 in mineral or energy makes a big difference.
 

IndoorHunter

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@Wiz,

I for one welcome the new ideas and deff would try it firstly prior to jugging, however, I just need to put this out there as this will have huge impact on one of my fav builds. As a purifier you currently get the nice bonus of the +30% border extrusion which allowed you to get those extra minerals. My first accention pic is always interstellar dominion getting more and more goodness.

With the changes I've viewed so far and with all the teases, my fav build by the sound of it is going to get some major play changes. - No more nice big borders, and by the sounds of it maybe even smaller fleet.

I'm confident that you wont screw me and my fellow fanatic's here, but I just want... no no no I need you to say, buddy, I've got you covered with some sweet awesomeness.

But seriously this is going to change the meta for them quite a bit, I just feel they are going to need TLC with these changes.
 

Riftwalker

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It was something unique in Stellaris,

it really wasn't, border push shows up a lot, it's not really fun though losing stations arbitrarily. I once had to rebuild an entire bulwark system of defense stations because of losing the planet due to the enemy getting a border tech. not fun.