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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

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Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:

Creamu

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Expanding should be rewarded when going wide. But if you want to expand "tall", why are there so many limits on improving a certain planet/system? In victoria 2 you can improve a state almost infinitely or at least for the course of the game. As long as you have enough people you can build or expand your factories and thus expand the economic power. Improving a system stops in stellaris when planets are full and all resources are mined. The only thing that still helps you improve are the repeatable techs for energy/minerals/food. I do like these changes though because it forces the player to specialize some of their systems.
Agreed. I dislike the idea not being able to develop planets more and more. Buildings should be be able to be upgraded not just through tech but by investing more resources into them. A highly developed planet shouldn't just be having a building on every tile.
 

iniudan

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I still don't understand if planet occupation is still a thing or not. And if it is, do we have to occupy the starbase AND all the planets to ask for the system?

Can I have an answer about it? I'm not asking for details about wargoals, only a clarification about this...

Will have to wait for a future dev diary, I would guess, since that pertain to warfare.
 

romothecus

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Sounds like a UI rework for one would work for the other.

It's not the concept of one outpost per system I'm objecting to - I don't love it but I don't hate it either - but the process of building them...

I think this is the thing everyone is missing. There's nothing inherently wrong with one outpost per system for ownership.

The problem is that Paradox consistently makes systems without any regard to how the player will interact with the system. It is *sometimes* fixed in a later DLC (for example EU4 army builder) but the process sometimes takes *years* (for example CK2 rally points).

People complaining about building outposts is "mindless micro" is almost the same as saying building mining/research stations is "mindless micro"

which... it... is...
 

EntropyAvatar

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@Wiz Sorry for summoning you, but please confirm this, so we can make a meme/defaultanswer out of your post to ward of all the countless people who will keep spamming the forum mid-December for a Christmas release.
(Because, obviously the release will not be before January, more likely Feb-Aprl)

Just to be clear, I'm not expecting 2017 at all. I'm kind of hoping Wiz could set a "definitely not before X" date, but I can see that even saying that much might turn in people's minds into "You promised this by X!".
 

Calvax

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C'mon. This is a game about building a star empire, which mechanically and (mostly) thematically requires constant economic expansion. There is no such thing as a star system that doesn't "interest" me, especially when you just told us that there won't be any more empty star systems. Every source of minerals/energy/research is going to be exploited.

Huh, I feel the complete opposite. For me it completely makes sense that borders in space would be system focused and I'm excited to play a game in which empires aren't just giant blobs of systems that realistically they have little claim to. Why should an empire arbitrarily get a system they don't have a single asset in just because it's near them?
 

Fjolsvid

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Neo trek reference to be exact.


*drools*


Would be cool if they got integrated into these considering they are both indestructible.


The worm in waiting is most displeased.


Would be cool if some of the mega structures that are built orbiting a star became unique upgrades for the citadel.



Again, please add a small chance for Venus to be the terraforning candidate instead.


I have no problem with that, but perhaps black holes could be a bit rarer.


I can very much support this move, I have done something similar in my mod and it makes things much better. I have also cut down on emergency ftl time and the danger of using emergency ftl.


Well stellaris started out pretty bare bones but they keep adding things all the time so I have no doubt it will cover all these things.


I hope we can order construction ships to queue mining stations after a outpost.


The latter should have a chance to lead to some kind of conflict.


Eh the border extrusion system is the one used by almost all 4x games. And it works well for games like civ where you are on a continent filled with things but in space the distance between the stars is extremely large and empty, if you like to you can pretend that the game is a HUD which only shows systems of significance, esepcially now that every system has a significance.


Why should they? It's totally not suited for a space game to start with.


Haha I'm guessing not but there could be an event.


Yeah very much seconded. They should slowly start to repair when at peace. Perhaps a construction ship could also be ordered to repair stations in system at any time.


Maybee you could have a future update when developing a system becomes more of an offhands thing with initiatives in the system developing resources, perhaps evne finding some more (or even additional annomalies if you're lucky) could sort of be like the capitalists in Vic2.


If the enemy having Yang means I get Reinhard Von Lohengramm, Sigfried Kircheis, Wolfgang Mittermeyer and Oskar von Reunthal I could live with it...
There's reason the alliance lost the war


You assume not having played the patch.
Could you like add a preface to that list of responses with what you intended to mean? Presenting something and hoping for me to figure it out provides a superb opportunity to misinterpret it.
 

Adantigus

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Wiz, any plans to change how leaders work, or at least how much they cost? Getting an early admiral or any extra surveying science ships going now seems like a bad move, if it's going to cost as much influence as an entire star system, or more. The opportunity cost is so high.

Influence is already the strangest resource in the game, in terms of the sheer variety of ways to spend / obtain it. I've come to think of it as "the resource that prevents unlimited rapid expansion," and in that context, a lot of the uses for it make sense (outposts, colonization in the current version, and even moving pops to other planets.) Other uses of influence fit less well with that notion, such as the couple of buildings that still cost influence, election tampering, and faction management. Leader recruitment is, I guess, somewhere in between, and I'm not sure what to make of the fact that some treaties cost influence, while others (protectorates?) grant it.

But isn't it a bit odd, especially with leaders? Right now, with the relevant traditions, it costs 50 influence to colonize a new system, which is also the base cost of a leader. Isn't it a bit odd that finding a qualified candidate to be in charge of CERN is as difficult as convincing a billion people to move to a new planet?
 

Mouthwash

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As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.

Yep, that's what makes games fun. If Civilization had allowed players to spawn in food-starved tundra or not have marble nearby, thereby forcing them to use different strategies based on circumstances, players would have just quit in disgust.
 
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Alblaka

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Just to be clear, I'm not expecting 2017 at all. I'm kind of hoping Wiz could set a "definitely not before X" date, but I can see that even saying that much might turn in people's minds into "You promised this by X!".
Yes, I got you. I was just picking up the idea because, if Wiz does not respond to 'I assume it won't be 2017', people will turn that into 'He did not deny it being in 2017, so it could totally come out in late 2017'. It's bothersome to tell people to f...ind other activities to engage in, having a screenshot of Wiz saying 'Final number: Not 2017' would be a nice hammer to swing around.
 

LordMune

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C'mon. This is a game about building a star empire, which mechanically and (mostly) thematically requires constant economic expansion. There is no such thing as a star system that doesn't "interest" me, especially when you just told us that there won't be any more empty star systems. Every source of minerals/energy/research is going to be exploited.
There's still a cost associated with taking these systems. If a player is interested enough in a system to pay the cost (resources, build time, opportunity cost), I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they'd also be willing to click a mouse button one to three times to acquire it.
You have to select the construction ship first, no?
Three clicks for something you don't do very frequently did not seem like something to get up in arms about, so I thought you were talking about queuing starbase construction across a number of systems at once, which would only require two clicks per system in the current iteration.
Wouldn't this be the best time to worry about it? Once you've implemented it, it's not going to change much for a while, right? Seems like the logical time to get all uppity about a system is *exactly* when it's in an early iteration.
Basic functionality is already implemented. Luckily, iteration speed actually tends to pick up massively as a feature approaches completion. The fundamentals are unlikely to change in this case, but we are playing the game and feeling it out.
 

swanderfeild

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Huh, I feel the complete opposite. For me it completely makes sense that borders in space would be system focused and I'm excited to play a game in which empires aren't just giant blobs of systems that realistically they have little claim to. Why should an empire arbitrarily get a system they don't have a single asset in just because it's near them?
For same reason countries got claims to waters close-ish to them before modern treaties (and even now some try to go beyond treaties) - cos they said so and no one contested it. What is missing is way for others to go "nuh-uh" and ignore the claimed borders thus potentially triggering war.
 

romothecus

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Huh, I feel the complete opposite. For me it completely makes sense that borders in space would be system focused and I'm excited to play a game in which empires aren't just giant blobs of systems that realistically they have little claim to. Why should an empire arbitrarily get a system they don't have a single asset in just because it's near them?

Nobody is arguing that.
 

DMFan

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Just an observation from a PM that works for an insurance company: we always try to minimize the number of clicks to perform an action. This is a base rule for every GUI that wants to be successful and appreciated.

I believe this also applies to games...

My two cents.