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Dev Diary #47 - Conversion and Assimilation

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Happy Thursday! Today our topic returns to Pop mechanics, with a discussion around some of the finer details on how Pops may change their religion and culture over time depending on your nation’s legal system. The mechanics themselves are quite straightforward, but as always in Victoria 3, the applications of them can have quite different outcomes in different situations.

Let’s begin by reviewing the mechanics around Discrimination, since this will be important later in the discussion. We’ve already talked about most of this in other dev diaries but some details here may be new.
dakotaculture.png

Discriminated Pops have barely any Political Strength and cannot vote. This means the only way they can impact your country’s politics is by agitating for change through Political Movements, or by starting a civil war for self-rule through a Cultural Secession. In addition to being hamstrung politically, they also get paid substantially less than their non-discriminated counterparts, have a harder time developing Qualifications for certain Professions, and their presence in your country is a potential source of radicalism and Turmoil.

Whether a Pop is discriminated against or accepted depends on who they are, the national identity of the country they live in, and the laws of that country. Both culture and religion are potential reasons for discrimination, and these are controlled by different laws. Your Citizenship laws determine which Pops are discriminated against on the basis of their culture, while your Church and State laws determine which forms of worship are considered acceptable in your country. To be considered non-discriminated by these laws, Pops must pass a more or less stringent selection criteria based on how much they differ from the primary culture(s) and state religion in the country.

For example, under the Racial Segregation Citizenship law, only Pops whose culture’s heritage trait matches that of their primary cultures heritage trait will be accepted. The heritage trait indicates which region of the world the culture originates from (e.g. European, African, Indigenous American), and under this law that is the only thing that matters - whether the Pops speak the same language, or are both transplants in the New World, is unimportant in determining their status. By contrast, under Cultural Exclusion, any similarity between a Pop’s culture and one of the primary ones qualifies them as equal under the law.

The total set of options are:

Ethnostate: only Pops of primary cultures are accepted
National Supremacy: Pops whose cultures share both heritage and another trait are accepted
Racial Segregation: Pops of the same heritage are accepted
Cultural Exclusion: Pops whose cultures share any similarities are accepted
Multiculturalism: no cultures are discriminated against

State Religion: only Pops who adhere to the state religion are accepted
Freedom of Conscience: Pops who adhere to a religion in the same family as the state religion are accepted (e.g. any branch of Christianity, any form of Buddhist)
Total Separation: no religions are discriminated against

citizenshiplawsus.png

The practical impact of these laws therefore depends on what the state religion and primary cultures of your country are, as well as who actually lives in your country. An Ethnostate operates no differently in practice than a Multicultural state if only Pops of primary cultures live there. Since Pops are unlikely to mass migrate to your country if they’d be oppressed there once they arrived, until you expand your borders and populace by force you may not see a practical difference (except for a curious lack of immigrants). But if you were to form a Customs Union with a poorer neighbor, resulting in a lot of economic migration within the market to your country, you might have to deal with substantial political strife until you take steps to loosen up your Citizenship laws. If the option exists for you, as an alternative you might consider attempting to unify your nations instead (which we’ll learn more about next week) in order to accept both cultures as “primary”.

Alright, now that we’ve cleared up how countries can adapt to the Pops, we will consider how Pops might adapt to their country.

culturesus.png

First let’s tackle Religious Conversion. Pops who are discriminated against on the basis of their religion will always be in the process of converting to an accepted religion. The religion they convert to is not necessarily the state religion, though - it could be any accepted religion that is dominant in the state where they live. An Indigenous American following an Animist religion in a United States with Freedom of Conscience instead of Total Separation is eventually going to convert to some form of Christianity to avoid religious persecution, but if they live in a Nebraska that has been settled by predominantly Catholic rather than Protestant Pops, they would convert to Catholicism even though Protestantism is the dominant religion in the nation as a whole.

Pops convert at a percentage-based rate, currently set to a base of 0.2% / month (as usual, numbers such as these are subject to balancing and change before release, and are always moddable). A percentage-based conversion rate naturally means a diminishing number of actual converts over time, so at this rate it would take almost 30 years for ½ of your discriminated population to convert. If you find this rate too ponderous for your strategic goals, you have two primary tools at your disposal to speed it up.

The Religious School System law + institution combination increases this rate by +20% per investment level, up to a potential maximum of +100% (i.e. twice the speed). It also increases the Education Access of Pops overall and increases the Clout of the Devout Interest Group.

The other method is the Promote National Values decree. Like all decrees, it is issued in a certain state and costs Authority for each state it is issued in, so in a larger country you will have to focus your efforts. Promote National Values doubles the rate of both conversion and assimilation.

berbersunniconversion.png

Using a combination of both methods, you could speed up religious conversion such that ½ of a minority population can be converted to an accepted religion within the span of a 10 years. Of course, your school system only extends to incorporated states, so if you’re trying to mass convert Pops in conquered land or colonies you will have to do so by decree - or embark on the often lengthy and painstaking process of incorporating a part of the world that’s culturally alien to your country.

This leads us to cultural assimilation. The conditions for assimilation are a little more complex than conversion, and in some ways operate by the reverse logic. In order to start assimilating, a Pop must already be culturally accepted. After all, if they can’t get citizenship, can’t vote, can’t participate in politics, can’t get paid a fair wage on the basis of who they are, there simply is no way for them to assimilate - by which we mean, integrate themselves into a primary culture such that they are both accepted as such by others and genuinely consider themselves part of that culture. Renouncing one’s religious beliefs and practices can be a very practical and concrete choice, but adopting and being adopted by a different culture is not a utilitarian decision.

In addition, Pops will never change culture if they live in a state they consider their Homeland. A Franco-Canadian in Ontario might over time adopt the ways and tongue of their Anglo-Canadian neighbors, but a Franco-Canadian who resides in Quebec?! Plutôt mourir!

(And of course, if a confederated Canada has been created with both Anglo- and Franco-Canadian as primary cultures, none of those types of Pops would be changing cultures in the first place.)

If a Pop should be assimilating, the culture they will be assimilating into will always be a primary culture. This is because, again, this is not a practical decision that’s just up to the Pop in question, but a two-way-street of assimilation into the dominant national identity. In the case of countries with multiple primary cultures, the one selected will be the Homeland of the state the Pop lives in, or in case none or several apply, the dominant one among Pops who already live there. A Czech Pop living in a unified Germany (North + South German) in the state of Silesia (North German and Polish Homelands) will assimilate into the North German culture; if they lived in Bavaria they would be assimilating into the South German culture; and if they lived in Bohemia they would not assimilate at all, since Bohemia is a not only a South German but also a Czech Homeland. If this Pop instead lived in Transylvania (with both Hungarian and Romanian primary cultures and Homelands), they would be assimilating into whichever of those cultures is more dominant in the part of Transylvania where they live.

The rate of assimilation is the same as for religion, 0.2% per month. As mentioned, the Promote National Values decree can be used to double this rate on a per-state basis. In addition, a Public School System will provide an increased assimilation rate of +12.5% per investment level, representing perhaps a less overt approach to indoctrination than their religious counterparts. With maximum effort, this means you can assimilate half of a minority population in about 18 years.

northgermanprotestantassimilation.png

I’ll end on a small design note. While our primary motivation while developing these mechanics was to provide a logical and believable simulation, a nice side effect of the asymmetry between conversion and assimilation is that there’s no way to benefit from both without an asymmetry in your laws as well. An inclusive, accepting, discrimination-free society won’t also become religiously homogeneous over time, nor will an oppressive, xenophobic country be able to assimilate their cultural minorities just by waiting them out while throwing resources at integrating them. Culture-wise, Pops need to be either accepted or harshly dealt with, now or in the future. Being accepting of all faiths today means there will be problems if you backtrack in the future. There is no one-size-fits-all strategy for dealing with heterogeneous populations.

There are of course a few good examples of countries that already start out with asymmetrical Citizenship and Church and State laws. The Ottoman Empire, home to a lot of cultural and religious minorities, has fairly lenient Citizenship Laws but zero separation of Church and State. As a result they will initially have a lot of both assimilation and conversion, and increasing the rate of those further might be one way for them to try to minimize Turmoil due to discrimination long-term. Meanwhile, the United States has total separation of Church and State (zero religious conversion, but no religious discrimination either) but Racial Segregation laws that cause considerable population segments to be discriminated against, particularly Indigenous- and African-American. Since none of these populations will ever be assimilating unless the Citizenship policy changes, this problem will not just go away on its own. Either the United States changes course legally, or they will have to continue dealing with trouble caused by the oppression of these minorities for the following century.

That’s all for this week! Like I hinted above, next week Martin will get into how Unifications work in Victoria 3, which I for one am very excited about!
 
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For the US, WW1 began in 1918. So, 5 years. The law in question was passed in 1919, Meyer was charged in 1920.

Anyway, as I’ve said repeatedly in this thread: I strongly support the game being able to represent the federal nature of the US, and situations such as this are a major reason.
A system that could represent federal US, could also represent the autonomy of provinces under the Qing and allow for Ottoman and Daunbe federal proposals to exist, and if germany forms via republicianism not Prussia allow it to be federal too.
It could also allow provinces of the British and French empires to have different policies that would spread and be influenced by central government too, while not beign different tags.

How do you think a mechanic for federal countries could work?
Like if federal=yes then states/regions can have their own policies from X set of policies?
 
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A system that could represent federal US, could also represent the autonomy of provinces under the Qing and allow for Ottoman and Daunbe federal proposals to exist, and if germany forms via republicianism not Prussia allow it to be federal too.
It could also allow provinces of the British and French empires to have different policies that would spread and be influenced by central government too, while not beign different tags.

How do you think a mechanic for federal countries could work?
Like if federal=yes then states/regions can have their own policies from X set of policies?
Something like that sounds good. Maybe there could be a continuum of unitary states to confederations, with unitary states allowing absolutely no local policies, and confederations allowing any local policies, with federal states allowing a restricted range of policies. Just off the top of my head.
 
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A system that could represent federal US, could also represent the autonomy of provinces under the Qing and allow for Ottoman and Daunbe federal proposals to exist, and if germany forms via republicianism not Prussia allow it to be federal too.
It could also allow provinces of the British and French empires to have different policies that would spread and be influenced by central government too, while not beign different tags.

How do you think a mechanic for federal countries could work?
Like if federal=yes then states/regions can have their own policies from X set of policies?
Even Prussian Germany was federal.
 
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Orinsul

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Even Prussian Germany was federal.
I was thinking more, very federal rather than just federal.
Australia is federal, but it's states don't really have independent primary culture and religion settings that'd counter national policy? Given I was approaching this from the assimilation perspective, while Prussian germany was federal, it's cultural laws, with the kulturekamf (I know I havent spelt this right.) and policies to assimilate the germans into a single, prussian defined, german identity was top down so if you were having federal mechanics to represent how assimilation works in federal states, german federation style state is more relevant to the discussion than the historical empire.
 

Anna_Gein

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So if I understand correctly, pop will always change their religion toward state religion if there is one but will keep their culture if they live in their homeland tag ?

So let's say the game followed history, by 1910 Algerian pops in French occupied Algeria will be in the process of full catholic conversion but will keep their Algerian culture. Meaning when the process is ended, Algerian culture will be de-facto a Catholic culture ?

This should be changed ? Like introduced a system of carrot and stick to convert population rather than just stick. So requires some costs from the dominant state.

Or maybe religious conversion should be limited to Pagan religions alone. I don't know if there are actual example of large scale conversions among Christians and Muslims communities during this period.
 
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So if I understand correctly, pop will always change their religion toward state religion if there is one but will keep their culture if they live in their homeland tag ?

So let's say the game followed history, by 1910 Algerian pops in French occupied Algeria will be in the process of full catholic conversion but will keep their Algerian culture. Meaning when the process is ended, Algerian culture will be de-facto a Catholic culture ?

This should be changed ? Like introduced a system of carrot and stick to convert population rather than just stick. So requires some costs from the dominant state.

Or maybe religious conversion should be limited to Pagan religions alone. I don't know if there are actual example of large scale conversions among Christians and Muslims communities during this period.
west africa, had large scale missionary work within muslim populations, as did indonesia and malaysia.
Not every colony got treated the same.
 

Anna_Gein

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west africa, had large scale missionary work within muslim populations, as did indonesia and malaysia.
Not every colony got treated the same.
Yet theses regions remains nearly in majority Muslims up to this date. I mean Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country in the world.

In West Africa, up to nearly 100% save for the South coastal countries where Muslims are still around 1/2 of the populations and frequently more.
 

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Yet theses regions remains nearly in majority Muslims up to this date. I mean Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country in the world.

In West Africa, up to nearly 100% save for the South coastal countries where Muslims are still around 1/2 of the populations and frequently more.
they will not convert that quickly, frist it has been stated that all effects from laws and edicst, are reduced in colonies, second unless the player deliberately works for it's unlikely that the majority will convert and thirdly total separation of church and state disables religious conversion, France more than many other countries will most likely start with this law
 
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GUIIIP

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Since heritage partly plays the role of races, why not model a universal cultural abruption and only cultures with the same heritage can be assimilated to another. For example, when Africans arrived in the US, some of them become African-American if cultures sharing the same traits are accepted. This will also enrich the culture system.
 
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Darsara

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How does this model cases like the Magyar elite in Austria, who were opposed to giving rights and privileges to other non-Germans like the Croats? Switching away from nation supremacy will make all Catholics equal in Austria, if that law actually effects non-Germans at all. Will the only way that works be to cause the Austro-Hungarian compromise? And will the Magyar elite get angry if you later improve conditions for Croats or others?
 

Anna_Gein

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they will not convert that quickly, frist it has been stated that all effects from laws and edicst, are reduced in colonies, second unless the player deliberately works for it's unlikely that the majority will convert and thirdly total separation of church and state disables religious conversion, France more than many other countries will most likely start with this law
That is not how France worked in real life. Actually right until the end of its colonial empire, France usually registered and discriminated colonised people on their religions rather than their ethnics as a mean to negate the nationals identities. So keeping the example of Algeria, the administrative and legal discrimination in the country divided the population among French citizens and Muslims. Up until 1945 (Algerians) Muslims could potentially get access to full French citizenship rights but on the condition they renounced their Muslim faith. While in order to booster the colonial elite, Algerians Jews were given full French Citizen rights in 1870 (Crémieux Decree).

Even in administrative registers, the distinction was made between Muslims or indigènes musulmans and French citizens.

France more than other states used heavily Faith discrimination in its colonial possession. In Lebanon pushed Maronite over others religious communities, In Syria, Alawite, etc.

Kind of off topic but I rather make sure it is clear for everyone.

France will not start with this law anyway as the law for separation between state and church was promulgated on 1905.

I had not seen edicts and laws are reduced in oversee possession in the dev diary. Rather the diaries shows the example of Algier where among a population of 13 600 Algerians Muslims, 55 are converted months which equal 0.40 conversions by month (the base line 0.20 value * 2 due to the promote national value decree).

this definitively does not show a reduced of conversion in oversee possession nor a reduce effectiveness of decree. More so, the devs explained in will take roughly 30 years to convert half the population before a negative return rate of conversion kick in. Which is still an insane speed imho.

I think religious and cultural conversion is super important to get right considering how many non-Christians religions had most of not all of their population colonised by European (Christians) power. Meaning if it is no done right, it will give an immersion breaking situation where most of the world turned Christian and most of the religions including the famous one disappeared before the end game date.
 
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Not sure if this has been asked, but will nations be able to change their state religions? I.e. Ireland changing to a Protestant nation.
In the Japan AAR the dev switched state religion from Buddhist to Shinto. He mentioned that he had to switch the religious acceptance laws before doing so to not suddenly discriminate half the population.
What I still don't know is what exactly is the point of switching state religion.
 

Anna_Gein

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In the Japan AAR the dev switched state religion from Buddhist to Shinto. He mentioned that he had to switch the religious acceptance laws before doing so to not suddenly discriminate half the population.
What I still don't know is what exactly is the point of switching state religion.
I guess he did so for roleplay value. The Meji restoration was followed by a top down enforcement of Shinto faith while Buddhism became discriminated afaik.
 

Nitan17

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In the Japan AAR the dev switched state religion from Buddhist to Shinto. He mentioned that he had to switch the religious acceptance laws before doing so to not suddenly discriminate half the population.
What I still don't know is what exactly is the point of switching state religion.
He did it through a Japan-specific Journal Entry, there's no generic mechanic for changing State Religion.
 

wilcoxchar

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Not sure if this has been asked, but will nations be able to change their state religions? I.e. Ireland changing to a Protestant nation.
It's possible in very specific circumstances where events and journal entries exist to do so. Japan has a journal entry to embrace Shinto as the state religion, for example, but it's not something you can do any time as any country.
 
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Daurien

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Proof that I am a slightly horrible person: While looking at the discussions on the nature of cultural homelands, I realized that a good solution to the problem would be allowing the forced emigration of pops away from their cultural homelands while being replaced by pops of primary cultures, so that those pops who were forced to emigrate can convert into a new culture. I know that this actually happened in some real life cases, but it is still slightly terrifying that my brain came up with it so fast.
 

Duarte

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That is not how France worked in real life. Actually right until the end of its colonial empire, France usually registered and discriminated colonised people on their religions rather than their ethnics as a mean to negate the nationals identities. So keeping the example of Algeria, the administrative and legal discrimination in the country divided the population among French citizens and Muslims. Up until 1945 (Algerians) Muslims could potentially get access to full French citizenship rights but on the condition they renounced their Muslim faith. While in order to booster the colonial elite, Algerians Jews were given full French Citizen rights in 1870 (Crémieux Decree).

Even in administrative registers, the distinction was made between Muslims or indigènes musulmans and French citizens.

France more than other states used heavily Faith discrimination in its colonial possession. In Lebanon pushed Maronite over others religious communities, In Syria, Alawite, etc.

Kind of off topic but I rather make sure it is clear for everyone.

France will not start with this law anyway as the law for separation between state and church was promulgated on 1905.

I had not seen edicts and laws are reduced in oversee possession in the dev diary. Rather the diaries shows the example of Algier where among a population of 13 600 Algerians Muslims, 55 are converted months which equal 0.40 conversions by month (the base line 0.20 value * 2 due to the promote national value decree).

this definitively does not show a reduced of conversion in oversee possession nor a reduce effectiveness of decree. More so, the devs explained in will take roughly 30 years to convert half the population before a negative return rate of conversion kick in. Which is still an insane speed imho.

I think religious and cultural conversion is super important to get right considering how many non-Christians religions had most of not all of their population colonised by European (Christians) power. Meaning if it is no done right, it will give an immersion breaking situation where most of the world turned Christian and most of the religions including the famous one disappeared before the end game date.
you argument falls short somewhat once we take into consideration two thing, first the colonial policy it set at for all colonies and not colony by colony, meaning the kind of nuance you desire is simply not in, hopefully it will be added at a latter date, second doesn't this contradict your own point? you have just made a case that maybe France shouldn't have total separation of church and state, the next best one then, which would then result in a small percentage of Muslims converting to Christianity, this dynamic seems to be represented well(ish) by the current system, sure the 0.20 value might be high, but then again few of the number shown thus far have been final

I have re-read the dev diary, and it is only laws that apply at reduced rates in colonies, edicts as you well pointed out, do not.

A thing i feel the need to point out, is that most of the effective conversions in Africa only came in later in the games timeframe, and more to the point as you well said many of them converted, for the most part the reason why Muslim regions in Africa remained such, is in good part because there where no realistic attempts at converting them, besides at best individual missions, I do not think it unreasonable or unrealistic that had the colonial powers actually truly wanted to convert them they would have, but they didn't, so to me the issue is not that we can convert everything, it's that we will convert everything whether we want to or not.
I think a compromise that make sense is by tieing passive conversion (both religious and cultural) to the tipe of colonialism practiced, in settler colonialism it's active and in exploitation based colonialism it's in active
 
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