• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #45 - Elections

16_9.jpg

Good evening and welcome once again to a Victoria 3 Development Diary! Today’s topic is elections. We’ll be covering the various laws that enable and affect voting, as well as the progression of Election Campaigns and how they affect political power in your country. We'll briefly be mentioning Political Parties in this dev diary, but they’re not the focus of this week - more on that next time! For now, I’ll just say that Political Parties in Victoria 3 exist in democracies and are made up of alliances of Interest Groups.

A country has Elections if it has any of the Distribution of Power laws that enable voting:
  • Landed Voting: Aristocrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, and Officers hold essentially all voting power, gaining a huge bonus to the Political Strength they contribute to their Interest Groups.
  • Wealth Voting: There is a Wealth Threshold that determines a pop’s eligibility to vote. Pops that can vote have more Political Strength.
  • Census Suffrage: The Wealth Threshold is significantly lower than in Wealth Voting. Literate pops contribute much more Political Strength to their Interest Groups.
  • Universal Suffrage: There is no Wealth Threshold for voting. Pop type and literacy do not grant additional Political Strength. Though of course a pop’s wealth will continue to contribute to their Political Strength, and Literacy will make pops more politically engaged.

Under the Wealth Voting Law, political power is held by the pops (and their Interest Groups) who can accumulate the most wealth, and largely denied entirely to the destitute. This naturally favors Aristocrats and the Landowners in more agricultural economies, while favoring Capitalists and the Industrialists in more industrialized economies.
votinglaws.png

All of these laws are compatible with any of the Governance Principles laws. A country with the Monarchy law for instance could be an absolute monarchy with no voting system at all, or it could have Universal Suffrage - likewise a Republic might very well be a presidential dictatorship. If you are so inclined, you could even create a Council Republic or Theocracy that uses Wealth Voting (though it would be bound to create some political conflict, to put it lightly).

There are three factors that, when applicable, will prevent pops from voting entirely:
  1. Discrimination. Discriminated pops cannot vote in Elections.
  2. Living in an Unincorporated State. Only pops living in Incorporated States can participate in Elections. Pops living in, for example, a growing colony cannot vote.
  3. Politically Inactive pops do not vote, regardless of whether they are “legally” eligible. These pops are not part of any Interest Group, and tend to have low Literacy and/or Standard of Living. Peasants working in Subsistence Farms, for instance, are almost always Politically Inactive.

In 1913, suffragette Emily Davison was killed by the king’s horse during a race. A passionate believer in her cause, she had been arrested repeatedly by the British government and force-fed while on hunger strikes.
suffrage.png

This is a good opportunity to talk about the women’s suffrage movement. In Victoria 3, passing the Women’s Suffrage Law will greatly increase both your Workforce Ratio and your Dependent Enfranchisement. This means that a greater proportion of pops will be eligible to work in Buildings, and a much greater proportion of Dependents will now count towards the voting power of their pop. There will be very little support among Interest Groups to pass this Law in 1836 however. After researching Feminism (or having the technology spread to your country), politicians will begin to appear with the Feminist ideology, which causes them to strongly approve of Women’s Suffrage and disapprove of less egalitarian laws. Once you research Political Agitation, the suffrage movement will begin in full force. The ‘Votes for Women’ Journal Entry will appear, and events will trigger from it that will give you the opportunity to grow or suppress the Political Movement. You can complete the Journal Entry by passing the Law and having your first Election Campaign with women eligible to vote; alternatively you can ignore or suppress the movement until it loses its momentum and withers away.

Why, you ask, would you want to suppress the suffrage movement? If you’re striving for an egalitarian society you certainly wouldn’t. But if instead you’re trying to preserve the aristocracy and maintain a conservative nation then not only will your ruling Interest Groups strongly disapprove of Women’s Suffrage but it will also be very harmful to their political power. Greater Dependent Enfranchisement inherently benefits larger pops more than smaller pops (especially under more egalitarian Laws like Universal Suffrage where wealth counts for less), and it is inevitable that there are vastly more Laborers, Machinists, and Farmers than there ever will be Aristocrats or Capitalists. Pops may begin to wonder why the Lower Strata, the largest class, does not simply eat the other two.

The Whigs took a catastrophic hit in the polls after I repeatedly fired a negative election event to test the system.
electioncampaign.png

Elections happen every 4 years in countries with voting laws. An Election Campaign begins 6 months prior to a country’s Election date. Each Political Party is assigned a Momentum value at the beginning of the Campaign, which is a measure of the success of their campaign and is a major factor in determining how many Votes they will garner on election day. During this campaign, Momentum will fluctuate for each of the running Political Parties and impact the final result. Since Parties, Leaders, and many other aspects of the political scene in your country are likely to have changed in the years since the previous election, the Momentum from previous elections does not carry over and is reset. Momentum can be affected by chance, events, and the Popularity of Interest Group Leaders.

The Tories’ success in the last election empowered the Landed Gentry, though the sheer wealth of their aristocratic supporters is still the largest contributor to their Political Strength under Great Britain’s Wealth Voting law.
electionvotespower.png

When the Election Campaign ends, the votes are in and the results are set in place until the next election. Interest Groups receive additional Political Strength from their party’s Votes, which will be a major factor determining your Legitimacy and therefore the effectiveness of your government. The actual makeup of your government is still up to you; just like the electoral systems of most modern countries, winning the popular vote does not automatically mean that a certain party or coalition of parties gets to form a government. But the post-election strength of your Interest Groups and their Party affiliations should be a major consideration, especially if you’re forming a minority government.

In Victoria 3, Elections can be a powerful force for political change but also a source of volatility. Dealing with (and if you’re so inclined, manipulating) Election results will be a major consideration when you form your governments. In this dev diary I’ve mentioned Political Parties, and we know you’re eager to hear more about them since the last time we communicated on the topic. You’ll be pleased to discover that in next week’s dev diary we’ll be covering our design for Political Parties in more detail, so watch this space!
 
  • 186Like
  • 48Love
  • 18
  • 7
  • 5
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

Random_player9

Recruit
Mar 10, 2022
6
27
1. Shouldn't suffrage requirements also include limitations from more liberal laws? So for example, under landed voting pops should not only have land, but also some wealth and be literate. This will both be more historic and prevent situations where de-jure franchise expansion actually decreases amount of voters, because most of country's aristocrats own subsistence farms and didn't make it into wealth census

2. Will wealth requirement scale as your pops average wealth becomes higher? This would help avoid the situations as OPM when you theoretically have restrictive voting system, but lower strata is just wealthy enough to get franchise
 

McGrey

Colonel
76 Badges
Dec 7, 2012
1.037
452
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Are there some of the more "specialised" election laws arround, e. g. the Prussian three class voting system?
 

Thure

Chartularius Hamburgensis
54 Badges
May 13, 2009
17.056
8.806
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
Yeah, it's bad enough that 2022 Britain exists right now.

Seriously though, Farmers need to count for Landed Votes for a number of countries. Or hell, let us customize it to some extent. The lack of modularity when it comes to certain things in this game is baffling, given its apparent design of "Literally everything is controlled by the player and not by the POPs" in so many aspects, like building construction and production methods.
Large farmers are represented as landowners/aristocrats tho. The US slaveholding farmers are in this categorie for exemple in Victoria 3.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:

UnenthusiasticClownJob

Boondocks Bodhisattva
27 Badges
Nov 8, 2014
145
1.598
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Large farmers are represented as landowners/aristocrats tho. The US slaveholding farmers are in this categorie for exemple in Victoria 3.
Sure, but in the US, pops categorized as the Farmer pop would be able to vote under landed voting. You don't have to be an Aristocrat pop to own land. It's already silly that other pop types are assumed to own no land at all, but most baffling of all is the Farmers, who by definition have to own land, otherwise they'd be a different pop type working on someone else's farm.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.443
38.817
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
You don't have to be an Aristocrat pop to own land.
Indeed. Farmers own land.

Just... not very much, in the scheme of things. And they participate in the processes of the farm, rather than acting as an extractive landlord.

The term "landowner" has connotations beyond merely owning land.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

UnenthusiasticClownJob

Boondocks Bodhisattva
27 Badges
Nov 8, 2014
145
1.598
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Indeed. Farmers own land.

Just... not very much, in the scheme of things. And they participate in the processes of the farm, rather than acting as an extractive landlord.

The term "landowner" has connotations beyond merely owning land.
Okay, friend, thank you for the injection of new information. But landed voting was not in any sense tied to "acting as an extractive landlord", so I don't know why you're bringing that insight up.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Markusw7

Slave to the Magyar
105 Badges
May 29, 2004
2.897
1.848
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Magicka
  • War of the Roses
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Dungeonland
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Under one of the more restrictive voting laws, if a pop demotes to a pop type that doesn't fall under that eligibility, will they lose their ability to vote or will they be "grandfathered" in?

Would they regain the vote if/when promoting back into the eligible pop types?

They'll lose the right to vote. Anything else is too complicated for very little gain
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

MatthieuG7

Second Lieutenant
55 Badges
Nov 28, 2014
110
301
24
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
It's also kind of strange. Imagine that you're playing the USA with the Slave Planters in Government. The Republicans win 51%of the vote and eek out a bare majority in both houses while also taking the presidency. The player notes that forming another slave planter government would now reduce their legitimacy by X, but that's still well above the rule of thumb threshold for legitimacy so the player ignores the Republican landslide and forms another slave planter government.

What does that say about the agency of the Republican party who just won government? Abe Lincoln sighs "I'm powerless to stop the formation of another pro slavery government. I'm just the Chief Executive of the Federal Government with a double majority to pass laws governing these United States. Utterly powerless. I'll just sit quietly for the next four years because...
The spirit of the nation demands it?"
I mean the mechanics are all very abstracted, but I would interpret your example situation as follows: the republicans indeed win 51% of votes in the presidential race and the House of Representatives but because of gerrymandering and the electoral college, the president and a majority of congress is still pro-slavery. The player « picking » the winning coalition is representing all the unsimulated factors that may prevent a party winning a majority of votes from governing. And IRL those situations actually do happen sometimes at the cost of the legitimacy of the government and the political system, like in the game.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Malarious

Sergeant
154 Badges
Sep 15, 2011
53
75
  • Rome Gold
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • King Arthur II
  • Lead and Gold
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
In terms of suffrage and work, this seems… almost entirely backwards? Women (and indeed, children) were mass employed (in agriculture, in textiles, and more) long before they gained the right to vote. In fact, logically, women working should drive increased suffrage demands, not voting increasing how many people work. That said, in most of the industrializing nations of this time period, pretty much everyone worked. They were sending nine year olds to mine coal and sweep chimneys. So if anything, workforce participation should decline with progress, not increase.
Bumping this, because it's pretty important. Tying women's suffrage to a direct economic boost is incredibly strange, backwards, and gamey. If you pass women's suffrage, it should be because you're feeling pressured to (whether due to strikes, unrest, demonstrations, etc, or because it will make it easier to placate an interest group and achieve your political goals) rather than because you want your GDP to go up.
 
  • 10Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Tomray94

Keeper of The Flame
46 Badges
Jul 2, 2015
386
2.010
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
It's also kind of strange. Imagine that you're playing the USA with the Slave Planters in Government. The Republicans win 51%of the vote and eek out a bare majority in both houses while also taking the presidency. The player notes that forming another slave planter government would now reduce their legitimacy by X, but that's still well above the rule of thumb threshold for legitimacy so the player ignores the Republican landslide and forms another slave planter government.

What does that say about the agency of the Republican party who just won government? Abe Lincoln sighs "I'm powerless to stop the formation of another pro slavery government. I'm just the Chief Executive of the Federal Government with a double majority to pass laws governing these United States. Utterly powerless. I'll just sit quietly for the next four years because...
The spirit of the nation demands it?"

Unless I'm missing something this could be easily explained by the fact that the US president is not elected by the elections happening in the game, those being the legislative ones. To add to this, the US is especially notable for not electing its president by majority vote, but by the states. Both of these could easily explain this as the Republicans grabbing congress but the Slave-owner candidate getting barely enough states and votes to win the presidency.

Then you also have electors going against the popular view of their state and supporting the opposite candidate, which is rare and controversial but still something that can occur.

Besides that, the interest groups making up different parties and government coalitions also represent something, the leader of the country belongs to one of them and it is very possible that a really mild or moderate Republican ends up being made president in order to not shake things up too much.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Taniwha

Sergeant
85 Badges
Feb 5, 2011
77
414
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
Why does woman's suffrage hurt conservative interests, when in many democracies the newly enfranchised women became bastions of the right-wing vote? It's one of the big reasons why supposedly egalitarian parties in France fought against woman's suffrage right up until the thirties!
 
  • 1
Reactions:

_karl_

Captain
51 Badges
Sep 11, 2013
454
242
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
A country has Elections if it has any of the Distribution of Power laws that enable voting:
  • Landed Voting: Aristocrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, and Officers hold essentially all voting power, gaining a huge bonus to the Political Strength they contribute to their Interest Groups.
  • Wealth Voting: There is a Wealth Threshold that determines a pop’s eligibility to vote. Pops that can vote have more Political Strength.
  • Census Suffrage: The Wealth Threshold is significantly lower than in Wealth Voting. Literate pops contribute much more Political Strength to their Interest Groups.
  • Universal Suffrage: There is no Wealth Threshold for voting. Pop type and literacy do not grant additional Political Strength. Though of course a pop’s wealth will continue to contribute to their Political Strength, and Literacy will make pops more politically engaged.
What about, as a last item, allowing "Soviet suffrage"?
In Soviet Russia (before Stalinism and the suppression of Soviets), there was some kind of weighting of the votes: the vote of factory workers had the strongest impact on the decisions of the soviet republics, then the vote of peasant soviets had some impact, and finally the bourgeoisie and aristocracy were just not supposed to have a say.
If the game allows for Socialist revolutions to happen, we should probably have something like that, instead of jumping immediately to Stalin's Constitution of 1936.

If you decide it's not worth having, I hope that at least those categories can be fully modded.
 

Baikal

Actually a Wah
114 Badges
Jan 9, 2009
554
530
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities in Motion
But that was the German Empire, not a democracy though it had some democratic elements.
Well, the United kingdom is a Kingdom and not a democracy. Same goes for Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands.

The amount of real/true liberal democracies in the game's timeframe is rather limited. So basing the elections and gouvernment formation systems on a group of countries which pose a minority among all nations in the game would not be very fitting. At least from my perspective.
 
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Arizal

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Aug 9, 2006
5.302
4.761
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
In the US examples above, what I’m uncomfortable with is that the proposition to justify the stay in power of those who « lost » the elections by the player amounts to rewriting history after the facts, basically choosing that the great electors in the end were swinging more towards one candidate instead of the other.

This seems to be a poor way to circumvent a very simple mechanic.

I would also prefer a better modelization of the different possibilities there were at the time at the cost of less agency for the player, but I’m glad political parties made it at all, since it wasn’t clear they would be present at the beginning.

It’s true legislatures and presidencies should be in the game. Again, the current framework can and should be improved. The player agency should be to make coalitions work and maybe to make electors swing in a limited way on election day.
 
  • 6
Reactions:

luxfelix

Colonel
53 Badges
Sep 21, 2014
1.184
1.700
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
Bumping this, because it's pretty important. Tying women's suffrage to a direct economic boost is incredibly strange, backwards, and gamey. If you pass women's suffrage, it should be because you're feeling pressured to (whether due to strikes, unrest, demonstrations, etc, or because it will make it easier to placate an interest group and achieve your political goals) rather than because you want your GDP to go up.

Maybe it represents the increase in the number of taxable pops?

Historically, wasn't that one of the ways governments were convinced to agree with women's suffrage?
 

crowdemon

Lt. General
47 Badges
May 13, 2013
1.329
1.236
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Good dev diary.
 

DominusNovus

Field Marshal
86 Badges
Oct 2, 2007
7.624
7.053
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Just for the record, I do want to thank the devs for listening to our concerns about political parties from the very beginning. I know we’ll hear more next week, but I’m happy they’ve been responsive on this.

And I’m looking forward to future expansions that flesh out the political system even more.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions: