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Dev Diary #42 - Cultural Secessions

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Welcome back to another chapter in this rundown of features that might tear your lovely nation apart! Last week we discussed Revolutions, which is where politically engaged members of your society rise up to change your country in favor of a certain Law. Today we will discuss another type of Civil War: Cultural Secessions, which is where Pops in your nation of a certain culture demand their right to self-determination and carve out their own country from yours. These types of Civil Wars have some similarity in mechanics but ultimately serve two very different purposes.

Just like revolutions can be seen as a failure to balance the economic and political needs of different classes against each other, secessions can be seen as a failure to see to the needs of Pops of certain cultures within your borders. Often this can come about as the result of aggressive expansion or systematic oppression of Pops of certain cultures (or indeed, the religions commonly associated with those cultures). Just like revolutions there are several paths to go down in order to deal with the problems secessionists might cause.

Back in the Migration dev diary we briefly mentioned a mechanic called Turmoil. Turmoil is the effect of having too many Radicals in your country, and has effects both on the state level and on entire cultures worldwide. To understand cultural secessions we have to understand Turmoil a bit better first.

Turmoil measures social friction and conflicts between Pops. This can include crime, violence, angry protests, and more. When a substantial part of a state’s total population are made up of Radicals, Turmoil is created and negative effects start to be applied: there’s a certain amount of Tax Waste, modeling all the different costs of the types of unrest Turmoil represents; and the state’s migration attraction decreases substantially, because nobody wants to move to an area where trouble is brewing

Louisiana appears to be going through some difficulties. Could that be a slave revolt brewing?
DD42 01.png

As you might recall from the Political Movements dev diary, Radicals can originate from a number of sources, including drops in material wealth, being below the minimum expected Standard of Living, or supporting a movement that’s not being listened to. But one additional major cause of radicalism tends to be Discrimination - particular discrimination of literate Pops.

Which begs the question, if discrimination creates radicals, and radicals lead to turmoil, and turmoil hurts your economy - why would any country discriminate against parts of their population in the first place?

First, discrimination is governed by Laws, and most countries start out with Laws that would cause certain cultures or religions to be discriminated against - even if such Pops aren’t even present in the country at game starts. You don’t pick and choose which cultures or religions to discriminate against, it’s all based on your Laws and how similar other cultures and religions are to your country’s primary culture(s) and religion. These Laws are supported by Interest Groups, so while you can try to put an end to your discriminatory practices by changing your Citizenship and Church & State Laws, certain groups might not be pleased with you if you do.

Second, discriminated Pops get paid less than their non-discriminated peers. This in turn makes ownership shareholders - and potentially all non-discriminated Pops in states where discriminated Pops live - richer, as they get a larger piece of the productivity pie. Therefore, putting an end to discrimination would hurt their personal finances, which causes them to Radicalize - and they have more Political Strength to hurt you with than the discriminated Pops do.

Third, discriminated Pops have considerably less Political Strength than their peers. If you’re worried about potential uprisings, getting rid of discriminatory practices could certainly help you in the long-term, but in the short-term it will empower the formerly discriminated to make stronger demands. It might be tempting to retain the status quo unless you’re prepared to take the fight with both the conservative elements of your society and the newly equal citizens who might want to see a few changes.

But since discrimination occurs on a cultural basis (and if not cultural then often religious, which often maps back to a certain cultures anyway), this means that even if Pops of a certain culture represents a small proportion of the population in your country, the proportion of Pops within that culture that are Radical could be very large indeed. So in addition to measuring Turmoil on the state level, we also measure it on a culture level, and on a culture-in-country level.

The Maghrebi culture might not have very high Turmoil overall because most of them live in Tunis and Morocco where they aren’t discriminated against, but within France the Turmoil among Maghrebi Pops could reach higher levels.
DD42 02.png

As we know from the Migration diary, if a whole culture has high Turmoil, this can result in the emergence of Mass Migration targets - states across the globe that temporarily gain the ability for Pops of those cultures to mass migrate there. This is the “peaceful” resolution to Discrimination - eventually, Pops who suffer systematic discrimination and see no improvement to their material conditions to compensate will simply pack up and move to someplace where they’re accepted.

But if Pops in a country suffer high Turmoil and live on one of their Cultural Homelands, they may instead start a Secession Movement. This could be the case for the Maghrebi population of Algiers, for example: they’re not only being oppressed, but they’re being oppressed on land they feel is theirs by right, and the obvious solution is to kick the French out of there. However, an Algerian that moves to Nice after their homeland was colonized and introduced to the French market will not try to start a secession movement for a Maghrebian sovereign state in southern France.

A Secession Movement functions a lot like a Revolutionary movement. It will gradually escalate in intensity until it reaches a threshold, after which point one or several states will break off from the country to form their own, then launch a Diplomatic Play. Much like Revolutionary and Political movements, you can deal with these by trying to fix the underlying issues - whether the discrimination or the lack of material comforts - or by suppressing the troublemakers using decrees or the Home Affairs institution. If you can get the situation back under control you can dodge the secession for this time, but the movement might of course return if conditions worsen.

You can also deal with it more permanently by simply ceding the land to secessionists. In this case you would release a nation, including all Homelands of that culture in your possession. One benefit of this approach is that you can release the nation as a Subject, permitting you to still meddle in their affairs and exploit their economy even while you grant them at least some degree of self-determination. With no Homelands now left in your possession, the secessionist movement will vanish immediately.

Another option when releasing a nation is to play as them, which immediately puts you in charge of that country instead!
DD42 03.png

But if you do not do any of these things, the secession will take place. This launches a Diplomatic Play where the country seceded from automatically gains the “Crush the Uprising” war goal, which if enforced will return the seceded states to their possession. The secessionists on the other hand only need to defend themselves! Unlike with Revolutions, a secession can (sort of by definition) result in a white peace where the seceding country is simply left to exist.

Just like in Revolutionary Plays, other countries with Interests or certain Pacts are able to intervene on behalf of either country. Most importantly, if the culture seceding is already a Primary Culture in another country - for Maghrebi, that would be Tunis - that country is automatically invited to join the Play on the defender’s side. Should they succeed to beat France, the seceding states would then become part of Tunis.

In addition, as soon as such a Secession Play has commenced, there is a chance that secessionist movements for this culture will break out in other countries, even if they don’t meet the Turmoil threshold! The classic example for this is Poland. Polish Pops live on Homelands across Prussia, Austria, and Russia. If any one of these countries mistreat the Poles to the point where they break away and form Poland, Polish pan-nationalist movements might break out in the other two countries as well. This potentially means having to fight all three countries for their independence!

Will the three Great Powers unite in crushing the Polish nationalist movement? Or perhaps one will graciously give up their parcel of land to Poland and start bankrolling them instead, hoping to weaken their rivals and maybe gain a new puppet state in the process?
DD42 04 v1.png

Cultural Secession and Turmoil is a pretty classic take on anti-blobbing mechanics - if you aggressively expand too quickly your new subjects will get angry, will become more of a liability than an asset to you, and may even try to take their land back. But with Victoria’s thematic focus on nation-states and pan-nationalism, these interact with the core mechanics of Pops, Cultures, Homelands, Radicals, Turmoil, and Diplomatic Plays to give you more tools to influence the situation than just pacing your conquests. Perhaps you will be a benevolent imperialist conqueror, who abhors Discrimination and Incorporates every new state to extend the benefit of your Institutions to them, convincing the newly conquered that they’re better off under your rule? Or perhaps you will exploit their natural resources but release them as a Subject nation integrated into your market as soon as they get rowdy? Or you build good relations with a neighboring power who's also oppressing this population so you have a natural ally in case you need to put down a rebellion together? Or you stay in your own lane while putting Interests all around you, so you can get involved in these conflicts when they happen to others in order to create buffer states aligned with you?

That’s all for me for a little while! Next week Ofaloaf will give us a peek at how we handle a very special butterfly of a civil war that’s not really a revolution, not really a cultural secession, but that includes elements from both: the American Civil War.
 
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Nikolai II

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Shouldn't trying to release a country have to pass as a decision or law? (So that the aristocrats oppressing Poland, Ireland or w/e can have a chance at getting properly upset?)
 
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Freger

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What are the factors that determine if likeminded secessions happen like Poland in Austria, Germany and Russia?
And can the inverse happen? E.g. Estonians and secedding and suddenly, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Crimeans and Belarussians are also on the independence train?
 

hazard151

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Do pops of the same culture that live outside the cultural homelands send money home, and do they migrate to their homelands when a secessionist war is on to serve as as soldiers? A culture that has been rather fruitful and well spread out could have a major impact on a secession movement if that is possible, and that is if there is no culture based IG pressuring a government to take a specific stance.

Shouldn't trying to release a country have to pass as a decision or law? (So that the aristocrats oppressing Poland, Ireland or w/e can have a chance at getting properly upset?)

Also, I like this idea, that making foreign policy decisions impact the opinion of pops.
 
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NinjaDrop0ut

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The classic example for this is Poland. Polish Pops live on Homelands across Prussia, Austria, and Russia. If any one of these countries mistreat the Poles to the point where they break away and form Poland, Polish pan-nationalist movements might break out in the other two countries as well. This potentially means having to fight all three countries for their independence!

If the Poles win the war (or 3 wars) do they keep all their territory claims automatically or rather just what they control at the end? What happens if that scenario happens, Germany and Austria recapture their territory but Russia can't?
 

Kyoumen

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This all looks good! I particularly love the variety of options to deal with cultural secession movements, either opposing or supporting or coopting to your own advantage.

Regarding next week's dev diary, while a focus on the ACW is expected, I hope the team has also looked into a creating a much better Taiping Rebellion experience than Vicky 1 or 2 had. It too is an unusual setup (since it involves a novel religion, at the very least), and in scope and body count it absolutely dwarfs the ACW (or indeed any other civil war in history, with twenty to seventy million dead depending on source material) and is arguably more globally important.
 

ryan404000

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Please sirs... when will we get a beta launch or anything I want to play this so bad

EDIT: I'd like to add in I made this well before I knew of any leak and this was not a reference to the leak
 
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Can other cultures also get involved in a Cultural secession? For example in case if Poles rise up against Russia can the Jewish population, which also faced repression in Russia, similarly could align with the Poles and join their revolution in exchange for autonomy/increased rights in a new Polish state?

Also as the Russian Empire was overthrown at the end of World War 1 there was a string of nationalist revolutions across the Russian, not only working together to mutually establish their independence but also, in case of the Poles against Lithuanians and Ukrainians, fighting three-way wars to capture as much land from other nations seeking their freedom during their own independence war. Will this be represented in any way? (simultaneous independence wars over the same territory resulting in wars between different revolting states)
 
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IndigoRage

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Very interesting! Will Afro-American cultures experience Cultural Secessions, given that the entire culture is very distant from its place of origin? Will they have homelands in the first place? Or will there perhaps be Mass Migrations to countries like Liberia?

Also, I'm surprised by the lack of comment on the issues of having different culture puppets. Do you plan to explain what was happening in the Norwegian revolution teaser in a future Dev Diary?
We saw a "Republic of New Afrika" in screenshots already.
 
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wilcoxchar

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Will Homelands adhere perfectly to cores or will nations (as in the people) and independent states not necessarily always have the same boundaries, as in real life. I feel like it'd be pretty silly if you take central Asia as Russia and Tajik independence means they also get northern Afghanistan.
Cores don't exist anymore.
 
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So, the stupid hypothetical I've created is actually what would happen, in other words. Every country has to be a nation-state.
No. You can have multiculturalism as a law and have no discrimination against non-primary culture POPs if you can get the interest groups in power to pass it. We saw this in the Canada AAR.
 
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No. You can have multiculturalism as a law and have no discrimination against non-primary culture POPs if you can get the interest groups in power to pass it. We saw this in the Canada AAR.
I'm talking about new countries created by secession, obviously. Not the ones in place at game start.

Thought about it and I realize the next DD will have to address this. I'll save my concern for then if it's appropriate.
 
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Haresus

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Very good to see that nationalist uprisings will spread across borders, with Poles in Russia and Prussia being inspired by an uprising in Austria. This was one of those things that felt extremely lacking in Victoria 2.

Honestly I'd love to see even more of a domino effect with nationalism: If the Poles in Austria gain independence (regardless of whether it's Austria releasing them as a subject or a successful war), why wouldn't the Czechs and Romanians also be inspired? Still, this is definitely a solid improvement.
 
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Cheers for the DD Iacheck, and those cultural secession/homeland mechanics sound excellent :) One thing that might be cool (and, indeed, might already be a thing) is if new ideas or technology lead to an increase in the push for secession, as was taking place toward the end of the game's time period?

For a maritime-themed cultural secession pic, here are some torpedo boats that were transferred to the navy of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (arguably formed from a cultural secession, although it had cultural secession in its future as well) after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

1649980041803.png
 
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Sounds interesting.
One detail: I noticed that the Maghrebi culture has the "Arab-speaking" cultural trait. It reminds me of the way things now work in CK3, separating "culture" and language, contrary to the traditional choice of earlier Paradox games. Is there a hope that we could eventually get some kind of "Royal Court" DLC with cultural hybridation and divergences? Or maybe even something doable in a mod.
The era of nationalism of the 19th century is not just a period where preexisting nations strive for independence, it's also about redefining nations (e.g. is Català a kind of Occitan?), or redefining itself as a nation (e.g. Yiddishland or Zionism), and converting whole (regional) cultures instead of just individuals (e.g. considering that Piemontese is now an Italian dialect).
Plus, it's maybe another question but there could be something interesting to do about the diglossia of colonial states: you could for instance end up having your intellectual elites in Morocco becoming French-speaking while still remaining culturally Maghrebi (or joining some kind of French-speaking hybrid culture, but without becoming fully French). Or shift between Creole and French in the islands.
 

Bigsoulja9

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Sigh... Of course, American Civil War is "special", and needs unique mechanics with its own Dev Diary, but Russian Civil War we can cast aside, despite the current oversimplified system not being able to even closely represent what an absolute mess it was. Well, I guess, it was not really that important of a historical event after all - definitely haven't defined the rest of the century, or something...
It's worth remembering that mechanic overviews centered on particular events are as they are moreso because those events are good ways to demonstrate how mechanics work than because those mechanics are only for those events. One would assume at least some of the mechanics that will be explored in the American Civil War dev diary will be experienced by people playing the game in other areas in the world, with those more "similar" to America in some ways getting more of those mechanics.
 
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Solid looking system, although I imagine that some tuning will eventually be required to deal with the weird edge-cases that will surely pop up once people play the game for long enough.
 

mikhail321

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Sorry if at has been asked before, but can there be popular independence uprisings in colonial subjects. That is, not an independence play started be government, but a popular movement, forcing the government declare independence or starting uprising against both overlord and loyalist government? There are many historic examples, and also an important mechanic not to let subject-focused play style get too powerful.
 
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Sigh... Of course, American Civil War is "special", and needs unique mechanics with its own Dev Diary, but Russian Civil War we can cast aside, despite the current oversimplified system not being able to even closely represent what an absolute mess it was. Well, I guess, it was not really that important of a historical event after all - definitely haven't defined the rest of the century, or something...

Given the current geopolitical situation, I imagine fleshing out the ACW is probably looking to be a more profitable exercise than a fleshed out RCW. Both Americans and Russians are notoriously nationalistic and likely to respond well to their own nations being fleshed out, but one of them is the worlds largest market, and the other has recently been all but removed from the worlds market.
 
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