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Dev Diary #42 - Cultural Secessions

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Welcome back to another chapter in this rundown of features that might tear your lovely nation apart! Last week we discussed Revolutions, which is where politically engaged members of your society rise up to change your country in favor of a certain Law. Today we will discuss another type of Civil War: Cultural Secessions, which is where Pops in your nation of a certain culture demand their right to self-determination and carve out their own country from yours. These types of Civil Wars have some similarity in mechanics but ultimately serve two very different purposes.

Just like revolutions can be seen as a failure to balance the economic and political needs of different classes against each other, secessions can be seen as a failure to see to the needs of Pops of certain cultures within your borders. Often this can come about as the result of aggressive expansion or systematic oppression of Pops of certain cultures (or indeed, the religions commonly associated with those cultures). Just like revolutions there are several paths to go down in order to deal with the problems secessionists might cause.

Back in the Migration dev diary we briefly mentioned a mechanic called Turmoil. Turmoil is the effect of having too many Radicals in your country, and has effects both on the state level and on entire cultures worldwide. To understand cultural secessions we have to understand Turmoil a bit better first.

Turmoil measures social friction and conflicts between Pops. This can include crime, violence, angry protests, and more. When a substantial part of a state’s total population are made up of Radicals, Turmoil is created and negative effects start to be applied: there’s a certain amount of Tax Waste, modeling all the different costs of the types of unrest Turmoil represents; and the state’s migration attraction decreases substantially, because nobody wants to move to an area where trouble is brewing

Louisiana appears to be going through some difficulties. Could that be a slave revolt brewing?
DD42 01.png

As you might recall from the Political Movements dev diary, Radicals can originate from a number of sources, including drops in material wealth, being below the minimum expected Standard of Living, or supporting a movement that’s not being listened to. But one additional major cause of radicalism tends to be Discrimination - particular discrimination of literate Pops.

Which begs the question, if discrimination creates radicals, and radicals lead to turmoil, and turmoil hurts your economy - why would any country discriminate against parts of their population in the first place?

First, discrimination is governed by Laws, and most countries start out with Laws that would cause certain cultures or religions to be discriminated against - even if such Pops aren’t even present in the country at game starts. You don’t pick and choose which cultures or religions to discriminate against, it’s all based on your Laws and how similar other cultures and religions are to your country’s primary culture(s) and religion. These Laws are supported by Interest Groups, so while you can try to put an end to your discriminatory practices by changing your Citizenship and Church & State Laws, certain groups might not be pleased with you if you do.

Second, discriminated Pops get paid less than their non-discriminated peers. This in turn makes ownership shareholders - and potentially all non-discriminated Pops in states where discriminated Pops live - richer, as they get a larger piece of the productivity pie. Therefore, putting an end to discrimination would hurt their personal finances, which causes them to Radicalize - and they have more Political Strength to hurt you with than the discriminated Pops do.

Third, discriminated Pops have considerably less Political Strength than their peers. If you’re worried about potential uprisings, getting rid of discriminatory practices could certainly help you in the long-term, but in the short-term it will empower the formerly discriminated to make stronger demands. It might be tempting to retain the status quo unless you’re prepared to take the fight with both the conservative elements of your society and the newly equal citizens who might want to see a few changes.

But since discrimination occurs on a cultural basis (and if not cultural then often religious, which often maps back to a certain cultures anyway), this means that even if Pops of a certain culture represents a small proportion of the population in your country, the proportion of Pops within that culture that are Radical could be very large indeed. So in addition to measuring Turmoil on the state level, we also measure it on a culture level, and on a culture-in-country level.

The Maghrebi culture might not have very high Turmoil overall because most of them live in Tunis and Morocco where they aren’t discriminated against, but within France the Turmoil among Maghrebi Pops could reach higher levels.
DD42 02.png

As we know from the Migration diary, if a whole culture has high Turmoil, this can result in the emergence of Mass Migration targets - states across the globe that temporarily gain the ability for Pops of those cultures to mass migrate there. This is the “peaceful” resolution to Discrimination - eventually, Pops who suffer systematic discrimination and see no improvement to their material conditions to compensate will simply pack up and move to someplace where they’re accepted.

But if Pops in a country suffer high Turmoil and live on one of their Cultural Homelands, they may instead start a Secession Movement. This could be the case for the Maghrebi population of Algiers, for example: they’re not only being oppressed, but they’re being oppressed on land they feel is theirs by right, and the obvious solution is to kick the French out of there. However, an Algerian that moves to Nice after their homeland was colonized and introduced to the French market will not try to start a secession movement for a Maghrebian sovereign state in southern France.

A Secession Movement functions a lot like a Revolutionary movement. It will gradually escalate in intensity until it reaches a threshold, after which point one or several states will break off from the country to form their own, then launch a Diplomatic Play. Much like Revolutionary and Political movements, you can deal with these by trying to fix the underlying issues - whether the discrimination or the lack of material comforts - or by suppressing the troublemakers using decrees or the Home Affairs institution. If you can get the situation back under control you can dodge the secession for this time, but the movement might of course return if conditions worsen.

You can also deal with it more permanently by simply ceding the land to secessionists. In this case you would release a nation, including all Homelands of that culture in your possession. One benefit of this approach is that you can release the nation as a Subject, permitting you to still meddle in their affairs and exploit their economy even while you grant them at least some degree of self-determination. With no Homelands now left in your possession, the secessionist movement will vanish immediately.

Another option when releasing a nation is to play as them, which immediately puts you in charge of that country instead!
DD42 03.png

But if you do not do any of these things, the secession will take place. This launches a Diplomatic Play where the country seceded from automatically gains the “Crush the Uprising” war goal, which if enforced will return the seceded states to their possession. The secessionists on the other hand only need to defend themselves! Unlike with Revolutions, a secession can (sort of by definition) result in a white peace where the seceding country is simply left to exist.

Just like in Revolutionary Plays, other countries with Interests or certain Pacts are able to intervene on behalf of either country. Most importantly, if the culture seceding is already a Primary Culture in another country - for Maghrebi, that would be Tunis - that country is automatically invited to join the Play on the defender’s side. Should they succeed to beat France, the seceding states would then become part of Tunis.

In addition, as soon as such a Secession Play has commenced, there is a chance that secessionist movements for this culture will break out in other countries, even if they don’t meet the Turmoil threshold! The classic example for this is Poland. Polish Pops live on Homelands across Prussia, Austria, and Russia. If any one of these countries mistreat the Poles to the point where they break away and form Poland, Polish pan-nationalist movements might break out in the other two countries as well. This potentially means having to fight all three countries for their independence!

Will the three Great Powers unite in crushing the Polish nationalist movement? Or perhaps one will graciously give up their parcel of land to Poland and start bankrolling them instead, hoping to weaken their rivals and maybe gain a new puppet state in the process?
DD42 04 v1.png

Cultural Secession and Turmoil is a pretty classic take on anti-blobbing mechanics - if you aggressively expand too quickly your new subjects will get angry, will become more of a liability than an asset to you, and may even try to take their land back. But with Victoria’s thematic focus on nation-states and pan-nationalism, these interact with the core mechanics of Pops, Cultures, Homelands, Radicals, Turmoil, and Diplomatic Plays to give you more tools to influence the situation than just pacing your conquests. Perhaps you will be a benevolent imperialist conqueror, who abhors Discrimination and Incorporates every new state to extend the benefit of your Institutions to them, convincing the newly conquered that they’re better off under your rule? Or perhaps you will exploit their natural resources but release them as a Subject nation integrated into your market as soon as they get rowdy? Or you build good relations with a neighboring power who's also oppressing this population so you have a natural ally in case you need to put down a rebellion together? Or you stay in your own lane while putting Interests all around you, so you can get involved in these conflicts when they happen to others in order to create buffer states aligned with you?

That’s all for me for a little while! Next week Ofaloaf will give us a peek at how we handle a very special butterfly of a civil war that’s not really a revolution, not really a cultural secession, but that includes elements from both: the American Civil War.
 
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Very interesting, looks like a great system overall! I'm wondering if there'll be potential for non-centralized responses to turmoil, I'm thinking along the lines of how the white population in the US South both before and after the Civil War put a lot of effort into organizing and maintaining discriminatory practices against the African American population, often against the wishes of the Federal Government. Empowering one cultural group against another may be an effective way to keep a lid on turmoil spilling into a secession movement, at the cost of getting less out of both groups, making it very hard to overturn the empowered group's privileges, and sowing the seeds for some very nasty violence if things ever get out of hand.
In the recent ottoman AAR the greeks are blamed for something and it seems there's a chance for the Sunni Muslims to take "the greek problem" into their own hands so its ossible
 

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If let's say I release Poland as my subject, what will happen to the other polish pops nearby in the other empires? Will the polish pops become more angry since it's their homelands or will they migrate to my new subject?
They might get more Radical as a new nation governed by the suppressed Pops now exists, under part of their homelands. Since most Pops then (and now) are poor or not well-off, migrating to the new nation might be out of the question. I would imagine revitalized secession movements in the nearby provinces to join the newly formed Polish state.
 

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It worries me that you use such mechanics as anti-blobbing because it will become like EUIV, where we have "Mandatory uprisings" every time you conquered a patch of land.
Which is upside down to how things happen in reality - newly aquired lands had next to no means of resistance and uprising. Yet long-established ethnic groups were prone to uprisings as they had established busines and community connections and links to foreign countries.
 
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I think this seems like a great system overall, but I wonder does it preclude some fairly plausible secessions that did or nearly happened, such as the Chita Republic, an independent California or Bavarian independence from Germany?
 

Victor Cortez

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Second, discriminated Pops get paid less than their non-discriminated peers. This in turn makes ownership shareholders - and potentially all non-discriminated Pops in states where discriminated Pops live - richer, as they get a larger piece of the productivity pie. Therefore, putting an end to discrimination would hurt their personal finances, which causes them to Radicalize - and they have more Political Strength to hurt you with than the discriminated Pops do.

Could you clarify this a bit?
If I understand correctly, a factory would actually prefer hiring discriminated pops because all else being equal, they'd need to pay them less so more profit for the capitalists. So it would actually be beneficial, for the economy, if you managed to attract discriminated pops. But that might create unemployment for your, non-discriminated pops?
 
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This caught my attention:

1649963077245.png


This is really important. In Vic2, one of the ways Prussia, Austria, and Russia can screw with each other is to back Polish independence in their rivals. But even if the Poles get independence via crisis or war, it's not like the other powers occupying Poland really pay a price for that.

"Yeah, Russia, we force you to give Poland independence."

"But what about Poles in Prussia?"

"Don't be silly. They shall remain content as they always have been."

Now, Prussia, Austria, and Russia might all hate each other, but the one thing none of them want is agitated Poles seceding. The bad precedent can make life miserable for all three powers.
 
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This caught my attention:

View attachment 829211

This is really important. In Vic2, one of the ways Prussia, Austria, and Russia can screw with each other is to back Polish independence in their rivals. But even if the Poles get independence via crisis or war, it's not like the other powers occupying Poland really pay a price for that.

"Yeah, Russia, we force you to give Poland independence."

"But what about Poles in Prussia?"

"Don't be silly. They shall remain content as they always have been."

Now, Prussia, Austria, and Russia might all hate each other, but the one thing none of them want is agitated Poles seceding. The bad precedent can make life miserable for all three powers.
Or, you liberate Poland as subject, giving some self-determination, and then help Polish of the world to unite under Greater Poland.
Leaving the rest of the game and mechanics aside, this might be a good play for a Russian Autocracy in getting a buffer state between Mother Russia and Germany and Austria, while at the same time, getting rid of literate Polish who could be part of an IG (say, Petite Burgeoise) who you want to weaken.
 
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Or, you liberate Poland as subject, giving some self-determination, and then help Polish of the world to unite under Greater Poland.
Leaving the rest of the game and mechanics aside, this might be a good play for a Russian Autocracy in getting a buffer state between Mother Russia and Germany and Austria, while at the same time, getting rid of literate Polish who could be part of an IG (say, Petite Burgeoise) who you want to weaken.
And then you launch a diplomatic play to annex your subject.
 
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What does a state being in your customs union do for you?
 
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Revolution 11

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Or, you liberate Poland as subject, giving some self-determination, and then help Polish of the world to unite under Greater Poland.
Leaving the rest of the game and mechanics aside, this might be a good play for a Russian Autocracy in getting a buffer state between Mother Russia and Germany and Austria, while at the same time, getting rid of literate Polish who could be part of an IG (say, Petite Burgeoise) who you want to weaken.
Do any of these 3 Great Powers really want a buffer state? All three believe the other two are beatable in a future war, all three probably want the direct tax revenues/manpower/industry output, and all three wanted to be multi-national empires so the idea of a free ethnostate in Poland is very destabilizing to the 3 empires here (especially Austria and Russia).
 
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$ilent_$trider

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Do any of these 3 Great Powers really want a buffer state? All three believe the other two are beatable in a future war, all three probably want the direct tax revenues/manpower/industry output, and all three wanted to be multi-national empires so the idea of a free ethnostate in Poland is very destabilizing to the 3 empires here (especially Austria and Russia).
Having the benefit of hindsight, we know Russia might have an awful time dealing with too many different IGs trying to pull Russia into different directions until eventually we get GLORIOUS REVOLUTION FOR THE WORKERS OF THE WORLD!
Getting rid of one of these groups (like I said, without not having full knowledge of the starting status of the game), getting rid of literate Poles who might back and give considerable clout to a Petite-Burgeoise IG might prove a good move in the long run. Specially if you want to modernize Russian army and industry but keep an Absolute Monarchism, or at least an Oligarchic Monarchy.
 
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Papar

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Do any of these 3 Great Powers really want a buffer state? All three believe the other two are beatable in a future war, all three probably want the direct tax revenues/manpower/industry output, and all three wanted to be multi-national empires so the idea of a free ethnostate in Poland is very destabilizing to the 3 empires here (especially Austria and Russia).
Actually as far as i know Austria supported complete polish independence in Congress of Vienna, going as far as to claiming that they are willing to give up their own polish territory.
Also neither Prussia nor Russia wanted to be multi-national empires. Both went out of their way to suppress poles and/or catholics and both promised poles 'independent Poland' during WW1, so yeah there are reasons to believe that given chance they could make buffer state.
 
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lacedemonian

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Will there be a dynamic Zionist movement? Should significant turmoil rise for the Jewish religion and associated cultures, is there a point, similar to the Balfour Declaration in the previous game, where they’ll be able to choose to migrate to the Palestine state and secede from Britain or the Ottomans?
 
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VineFynn

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..why is the ACW special? Couldn't you just have coded a system which accomodated all three scenarios?
 
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This is probably more pertinent to revolutions than secession movements, but in general how do these civil wars work for small countries the size of a single region or smaller? E.g. Luxembourg, Albania, Wallachia, etc. Can a state be split to generate a frontline?
 
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Ivashanko

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One of my favourite DDs so far! The Polish example is exactly the one I picked when I advocating for something very similar to Interest Groups for a hypothetical EU5 (I made that thread several months before Victoria 3 was even announced!). This is wonderful, simply wonderful. I especially like that same-culture nations will be instantly called into the struggle, and that if they win they inherit the new nations. There's a ton of risk-reward there, and it creates a strong incentive for colonising powers to support/conquer similar culture nations.

I hope that being benevolent is suitably difficult and that local colonising elites resist it tooth and nail. I, personally, don't think colonisation during this era could have possibly been done ethically, but I'm glad the players has the opportunity to try. I just hope it isn't too easy. And, heck, I especially hope it isn't always the optimal play!
 

Ivashanko

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Sigh... Of course, American Civil War is "special", and needs unique mechanics with its own Dev Diary, but Russian Civil War we can cast aside, despite the current oversimplified system not being able to even closely represent what an absolute mess it was. Well, I guess, it was not really that important of a historical event after all - definitely haven't defined the rest of the century, or something...

The Russian Civil War absolutely does not need bespoke mechanics. It happensed way too late in the era, could have been avoided in a million different ways, and is almost completely dependent on how the Great War shakes out.

I'm not sure the American's Civil War needs special mechanics. A better candidate for special mechanics might be the 1848 Revolutions. But, eh, with the diary system maybe we will be special mechanics for a lot of the bigger states.
 
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