• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #41 - Revolutions

16_9.jpg

A glorious Thursday to you! Today we will finally get into details of what fate befalls the state that fails to deliver what its people demand - revolution!

Revolutions in Victoria 3 can be seen as a result of failure in the game’s economic and political core loops. When this happens it means you have failed to balance the material and ideological desires of the different segments of your population, resulting in one or several groups deciding to take matters in their own hands. The result is a tremendous upheaval which could go very wrong for you - but play your cards right, and there’s a chance you might bounce back from this crisis even stronger than before.

A design goal we have kept front and center is that outright armed uprisings should be rare but still feel threatening. There is a lot of foreshadowing and opportunity to course-correct or compensate if you want to avoid a revolution. Not all movements will actually be powerful or angry enough to pose a real threat to you, and if they aren’t, they won’t drag you into a pointless war with an obvious outcome but bide their time until they become relevant.

A revolution always starts with a Political Movement demanding some kind of change to the country’s Laws. The demand might be to enact something novel (perhaps Universal Suffrage or Workplace Safety), preserve something you’re about to change (maybe the Monarchy you’ve been trying to abolish), or restore something you used to have (Free Markets? Outlawed Dissent?). Any of these could end in a violent uprising if the movement is radical enough and you fail to meet its demands.

Political Movements have two major attributes to keep an eye on: their Support and their Radicalism. A movement’s Support affects how much help they would lend to enacting their desired change if you choose to go along with them, or how much resistance they put up in case of a movement to preserve a law you’re trying to change. It also determines how powerful a revolution they can muster, should it come down to that.

Meanwhile, Radicalism measures how likely they are to revolt if they don’t get their way. A movement with strong Support and high Radicalism is of course very dangerous. A movement with strong Support but low Radicalism can be a nuisance but is relatively harmless: they’ll work within the system, maybe raise a placard or two, but won’t take up arms. Finally, a movement with low Support but high Radicalism might not stand much of a chance to overthrow the government on their own, but the instability caused by their ideological fervor could be damaging to your country in the short-term and might even create geopolitical opportunities for your neighbors.

The movement to restore the Republic is not the most powerful one, but those who do support it care a great deal - and may even be willing to lay down their lives for it. It is supported by both the Armed Forces and the Intelligentsia - not the most likely of bedfellows typically, but united in this case for this particular cause.
DD41 01.png

A movement’s Radicalism originates from two sources: the number of Radicals among the Pops that support the movement, and the Clout of supporting Interest Groups with Approval low enough to be Angry. Since an Interest Group’s Approval originates both from the Laws of your country and also how Loyal vs Radical its supporters are, Radical Pops can potentially double their impact on a movement’s Radicalism. The major difference between these two factors is that when Pops act through their Interest Groups their impact is through Clout (the national share of their Political Strength) while direct Pop support makes a difference through sheer numbers. This means populist uprisings are possible even though the affected Pops don’t have any real representation in the halls of power, assuming they’re angry enough about their living conditions.

While a movement’s demands remain unmet, any Pops that belong to them will gradually gain Radicals. Once the Radicalism of a movement has exceeded a certain threshold it will begin organizing an armed uprising. You can monitor this progression in your outliner to see both how rapidly you’re moving along the road to revolution and how far you have already gone, both determined by Radicalism.

This means you can have a direct impact on revolutionary progression. Of course you can cave to the movement’s demands, which will placate them and eventually cause them to disband. But you can also address the problem by identifying the troublemakers and deal with them directly: either deradicalize them by improving their living conditions, or suppressing their contrarian ways by other means.

The ability to deal with insurgents by issuing Decrees to suppress Radicals can be a helpful tool in more authoritarian countries with concentrated populations, or where the insurgency is very localized. This is much more difficult in case of broadly supported populist movements in a large country.
DD41 02 v2.png

If you manage to get the movement’s Radicalism under control, you can make the revolution fizzle out on its own without giving an inch.

Another way of keeping revolutions in check is by establishing a Home Affairs Institution. By sinking Bureaucracy into Home Affairs you can more easily keep your troublesome elements in check, giving you more room to maneuver politically. As usual such an Institution can take several forms depending on what Law establishes it. A National Guard can require you to take more overt, proactive steps to keep law and order, while a Secret Police is able to operate more effectively in the background.

A minimal Home Affairs Institution under the Secret Police Law.
DD41 03.png

When radical movements are met with obstacles to their revolution for a long time, there’s an increasing chance that its revolutionary fervor burns out and the movement disbands.

But let’s say you don’t manage to placate or obstruct the political movement and the revolutionary progression boils over a required threshold. In this case an armed uprising will take a number of your states, proportional to the strength of the movement and localized roughly where its supporters are, to form a new revolutionary country. This country has the same technology as you but with some differences in laws, to reflect the ideological desires of the political movement’s leadership. Furthermore, the Interest Groups in this new country will become marginalized if they do not support the revolution, while the opposite is true in the loyalist part of the country.

Obviously, characters supporting revolutionary Interest Groups will join the revolution. This includes not only Interest Group leaders, but also those Generals and Admirals you may have carefully nurtured over many military campaigns and who may by now be in charge of most of your forces. Even if you win against them, they won’t be making it back to your country - alive, at least.

All other properties of this new country are dependent on the states they won over. If the revolution takes all your Barracks and Arms Industries, you might be in big trouble; if the revolutionary states consist mostly of Paper Mills and Art Academies, maybe you’re not so worried (until your Government Administrations start grinding to a halt and your aristocracy get mad about the lack of culture workers to patronize, that is). And of course, the loyalist part of the country retains all their hard-won diplomatic pacts and treaties, while the pretender has to start from scratch.

What follows is a Revolutionary [Diplomatic] Play where the stakes are very simple: the loyalist part of the country tries to crush the rebellion, while the revolutionary country tries to swarm the loyalists. Other countries with an Interest in the region can participate in this Play as usual. It is not uncommon for countries with good relations to the country before the revolution to support the loyalists in restoring order. It is also possible for a country whose government supports the ideals of the revolutionaries to back their side. As such, a revolution might not only result in you having to fight and kill your own people, but your nation might even become the ideological battleground of Great Powers.

A revolution in South Germany might prove a perfect opportunity for some old rivals to weaken each other and perhaps woo a potential Subject nation without having to take on any Infamy of their own.
DD41 04.png

If the prospect of winning against the revolutionaries doesn’t look good, like in all Diplomatic Plays you have the option of giving up. But rather than simply backing down and letting the revolutionaries have their way (which, to be frank, you could and should have done a long time ago if that was your intention), in Revolutionary Plays you only have an option to switch sides and take over the revolutionary part of the country in its fight against the loyalists. A daring player might decide to manufacture a powerful revolution on purpose in order to push some highly contentious laws through, though this strategy definitely straddles the line between brilliance and madness.

It’s important to note that there is no potential for a “white peace” in a revolution. Either side can capitulate, of course, but a peace cannot be signed without one party pressing their war goal and annexing the other side. By the end of the revolution, only one country will be left standing.

Needless to say, while all wars are expensive, civil wars are doubly so. A quick and decisive victory with minimal casualties is the best you can hope for - a long, drawn-out war amassing casualties and devastation on both sides might result in a country so broken it will take decades to rebuild. But once the war is over, the Interest Groups that lost the power struggle are defeated, for a time. Perhaps during this “golden age” you will have the opportunity to effect some much-needed political change and rise from the ashes?

Losing a revolutionary war means your country loses all its territory and Pops, in other words Game Over. This is something we’ve gone back and forth on during development, because while we do want you to be able to drastically transform your country through revolution, we don’t want to encourage you to just give up if things are looking bleak because resisting means a prolonged conflict leading to a more war-torn country in the end. So pick your side, but do it carefully! Should you end up losing after all, just like in any Game Over situation you can choose to continue playing as a different country, including the political faction that just took over yours. But to be clear, we still haven’t fully made our mind up on this and might well change our mind again! What do you think? Feel free to let us know in the comments!

Next week I’ll return with part two of civil wars: cultural secessions. Until then!
 
  • 216Like
  • 88Love
  • 16
  • 14
  • 5
Reactions:

DemonLord39

Recruit
12 Badges
Sep 28, 2019
1
2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
My question for the devs is pretty simplistic and please forgive me if this has already been showcased or asked by someone else in one of the other dev diaries as I haven't read through them all yet, but every screenshot of the game map I have seen so far has only show the Victoria 2 type terrain map mode when zoomed in and I was actually wondering if the more mainly used in Vicky 2 political map mode will be returning.

Also, first ever post on the forum here!
 
  • 2
Reactions:

CrackingShow

Captain
62 Badges
Apr 6, 2011
383
902
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
"So pick your side, but do it carefully! Should you end up losing after all, just like in any Game Over situation you can choose to continue playing as a different country, including the political faction that just took over yours. But to be clear, we still haven’t fully made our mind up on this and might well change our mind again! What do you think? Feel free to let us know in the comments!"

Maybe if you select Ironman mode, if you lose the revolutionary war you lose the game. In non-ironman you can keep playing. Or tie it to a difficulty setting.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

BrotherJonathan

Petty King of Washington
49 Badges
Jun 15, 2015
949
2.055
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Knights of Honor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
I generally like this system; it seems like a good alternative to the infamous whack-a-mole revolts that plagued early versions of VicII. However, I'm not sure that the whole "lose the game if you lose the revolution" thing isn't just a tad too harsh.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Oglesby

General
57 Badges
Jun 18, 2015
2.183
4.318
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
This is one of the great debates of gamers - how much RNG can you put in a game before player skill ceases to exist? I regard hedging the risks of AI diplomacy with tens of relevant tags to be part of player skill. There is much room to debate whether it's fair to expect that skill in the average player, but it does not sit well with me to imply grand strategy diplomacy is a pure luck game where skill does not exist outside managing your own internal affairs.

Now, regardless of where we individually stand on the above question, from a commercial perspective there's a sizable player population that would be unhappy getting a game over due the RNG getting the better of them in the revolutionary play. Not issuing a game over would make a different player segment disgruntled, but likely not as much as the former segment. I could see the commercially sensible decision to be embracing the risk-average player segment.
Couldn't the same be said about a diplomatic play leading to war with an external source? Which would either mean that we should remove all game overs and/or all RNG to embrace the risk averse player segment?
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Sbrubbles

Colonel
17 Badges
Jan 6, 2014
1.020
2.303
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
This whole "game over" seems a bit moot to me, since you can just tag switch. Tag switching is possible in pretty much every paradox game (not sure about Stelaris). Some require console commands, but often you can do it in the game loading screen.

As for game over with Ironman enabled (which would disable tag switching probably), I really don't know.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

MfgLuckbot

Major
Mar 21, 2022
579
2.147
Couldn't the same be said about a diplomatic play leading to war with an external source? Which would either mean that we should remove all game overs and/or all RNG to embrace the risk averse player segment?
I think it's a huge difference if a RNG risk is a flat risk, or if the player can influence the odds.

Random unavoidable disasters always feel terrible for everyone, but going for a high risk high reward situation and losing seems fine in my opinion.

What matters is agency, risk averse players need a way to minimize their risks, at the cost of not being able to progress as quickly. Then RNG even becomes desirable for the "did I spend enough of ressource X to avoid bad thing Y?" tension.

Guaranteed outcomes are boring, completely random outcomes are boring, you want something inbetween that the player can lean in either direction.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
Reactions:

CityDisk

Sergeant
16 Badges
Dec 20, 2021
79
192
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
This whole "game over" seems a bit moot to me, since you can just tag switch. Tag switching is possible in pretty much every paradox game (not sure about Stelaris). Some require console commands, but often you can do it in the game loading screen.

As for game over with Ironman enabled (which would disable tag switching probably), I really don't know.
I think for Ironman it makes sense - seem as though that's supposed to be the "achievements and show of your skill"
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Oglesby

General
57 Badges
Jun 18, 2015
2.183
4.318
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
I think it's a huge difference if a RNG risk is a flat risk, or if the player can influence the odds.

Random unavoidable disasters always feel terrible for everyone, but going for a high risk high reward situation and losing seems fine in my opinion.

What matters is agency, risk averse players need a way to minimize their risks, at the cost of not being able to progress as quickly. Then RNG even becomes desirable for the "did I spend enough of ressource X to avoid bad thing Y?" tension.

Guaranteed outcomes are boring, completely random outcomes are boring, you want something inbetween that the player can lean in either direction.
How 'losing a revolution' a random unavoidable disaster?

What I was trying to see is if I take this quote and replacing the "revolutionary play" with anything else would/should the result change.
Now, regardless of where we individually stand on the above question, from a commercial perspective there's a sizable player population that would be unhappy getting a game over due the RNG getting the better of them in the revolutionary play. Not issuing a game over would make a different player segment disgruntled, but likely not as much as the former segment. I could see the commercially sensible decision to be embracing the risk-average player segment.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

ItThatAltersSanity

Sergeant
68 Badges
Oct 26, 2017
89
248
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Empire of Sin
  • Island Bound
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Couldn't the same be said about a diplomatic play leading to war with an external source?
MfgLuckbot answered this along the lines I would:
I think it's a huge difference if a RNG risk is a flat risk, or if the player can influence the odds.

Guaranteed outcomes are boring, completely random outcomes are boring, you want something inbetween that the player can lean in either direction.
The competent risk-averse player will either start as or very quickly become a big state that won't wipe from a single war going bad: a big risk when you're 30 minutes into a campaign is very different to a similar sized risk taken 30 hours in. After becoming stable in the earlygame, the risk-averse player will then read the map and manipulate the AI into not focussing aggro on the player nation. If the player has to occasionally give some concession to an untimely hostile diplomatic play, it's worth it to avoid a bad risk. Thus from mid-game onwards every diplomatic play the risk-averse player enters is one they are 99% sure they can win cost-effectively. If the competent, risk-averse player is caught off-guard by a disadvantageous war, then the game isn't delivering information clearly or the player had a lapse in attention.

Compare with the Revolution war: a risk-averse player will stop the revolution from going off at all. The DD describes a system with ample warning bells and guidance on how to prevent it at some cost or another. So if the Revolution even gets to the diplomatic play stage, the player wants it to happen. A competent player will have made sure the odds (including what other countries will do) are stacked in their favour and that the benefits are well worth taking the risk.

To tie it to the "game over" question: is this level of 'competence' a fair bar to judge players by? As the game hasn't been released yet, only the devs can take a stab at answering that.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.561
19.770
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
2) we didn't want to have to deal with a map full of countries named things like "Radical Revolutionary Rebellious Saxony" after 100 years of ever-fragmenting micro-states

Probably for the best.

1649797114898.png


Splitters, the lot of 'em. ;)
 
  • 8Haha
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

SingularityHRT3

Second Lieutenant
Sep 1, 2020
101
217
Someone in Steam mention this idea. How about a Government in Exile after a Revolution. Portugal Empire had it's Monarchy in Exile in Brazil until it took over the Mainland Portugal back under control from the Revolutionaries. I may be wrong with the exact facts but something in this line happened.
It has already talked about but I do want to add My support for this. I would also like to see a revolution ending in a white peace if the conflict didn't reach a resolution after a set amount of time or if both parties are exhausted. In that case there will be two Nations (may be the territories can change depending on who controls what when the unsigned white peace occurs) and both Nations can get into another armed conflict in the future, even for a very vague reason. This would play out like in CK games where when a kingdom is fractured into 2 or more by the old King's children, all of Them usually have a claim on the other parts of the old kingdom to take it for Themselves. Add Vic flavour to this and it would be nice to see 2 US, 2 Germany, 6 Chinese states and a Small Nation out of the Indian subcontinent that broke out and survived a rebellion against the British which was involved in another war elsewhere.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

BrotherJonathan

Petty King of Washington
49 Badges
Jun 15, 2015
949
2.055
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Knights of Honor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
Someone in Steam mention this idea. How about a Government in Exile after a Revolution. Portugal Empire had it's Monarchy in Exile in Brazil until it took over the Mainland Portugal back under control from the Revolutionaries. I may be wrong with the exact facts but something in this line happened.
It has already talked about but I do want to add My support for this. I would also like to see a revolution ending in a white peace if the conflict didn't reach a resolution after a set amount of time or if both parties are exhausted. In that case there will be two Nations (may be the territories can change depending on who controls what when the unsigned white peace occurs) and both Nations can get into another armed conflict in the future, even for a very vague reason. This would play out like in CK games where when a kingdom is fractured into 2 or more by the old King's children, all of Them usually have a claim on the other parts of the old kingdom to take it for Themselves. Add Vic flavour to this and it would be nice to see 2 US, 2 Germany, 6 Chinese states and a Small Nation out of the Indian subcontinent that broke out and survived a rebellion against the British which was involved in another war elsewhere.
That is definitely an interesting idea, but I don't think it should be in the game at launch. From my perspective, we need to see that the revolution system works properly first. Otherwise we could end up with the situation @lachek talked about where every country ends up becoming hopelessly Balkanized by constant uprisings.
 
  • 6
Reactions:

luxfelix

Colonel
53 Badges
Sep 21, 2014
1.184
1.700
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
Someone in Steam mention this idea. How about a Government in Exile after a Revolution. Portugal Empire had it's Monarchy in Exile in Brazil until it took over the Mainland Portugal back under control from the Revolutionaries. I may be wrong with the exact facts but something in this line happened.
It has already talked about but I do want to add My support for this. I would also like to see a revolution ending in a white peace if the conflict didn't reach a resolution after a set amount of time or if both parties are exhausted. In that case there will be two Nations (may be the territories can change depending on who controls what when the unsigned white peace occurs) and both Nations can get into another armed conflict in the future, even for a very vague reason. This would play out like in CK games where when a kingdom is fractured into 2 or more by the old King's children, all of Them usually have a claim on the other parts of the old kingdom to take it for Themselves. Add Vic flavour to this and it would be nice to see 2 US, 2 Germany, 6 Chinese states and a Small Nation out of the Indian subcontinent that broke out and survived a rebellion against the British which was involved in another war elsewhere.

Government in Exile interest group. ;)
 
  • 3Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

FryFroFella

First Lieutenant
66 Badges
May 30, 2015
251
1.228
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
I would really prefer if on losing the revolution, you kept playing as them, not have the option of switching by just continuing as nation as that would feel different that the game continuing. Vicky has always been a serious about revolutions and covering the revolutionary period. The same should stress a continuity of nation through revolution, not a game over with an option.
Losing to a revolution should never feel the same as losing to another nation, or have the same consequences. This is a Victoria game.
Agreed, one of the constants of revolutions is continuity, and the tension between continuity of institutional/social precedent, economic necessity, and the revolution itself. France, US, Haiti, USSR, Mexico, Bolivarian republics, even the US civil war if you take it as a quasi-social revolution all had something very important in common. Once the immediate military struggle was resolved, and the sectors of the old institutions which were captured and leveraged against counter-revolutionary forces no longer relied on/were threatened by the social base mobilized to win the military conflict and secure power, they had to contend with the fact that military, bureaucracy, and industry, the pillars of functional governance, could not be so simply undone and reshaped. When the desperate situation that led to revolution quiets down is when the revolution faces its largest challenge to try and actually reshape society instead of just being a change of political leadership implementing some necessary reforms onto the old system.

One of the many worrying things about the seamless transition to a council republic in the Canada AAR (raised my other issues in the AAR thread) is that simply changing the people and ideology in charge leads to Industrialists immediately becoming powerless, on the path to either being exiled or demoting to other pops. The AAR notes that there was no revolutionary war due to a bug where Industrialist opposition didnt fire, which would have caused a war between the councilists and the industrialists faction. This is not reassuring at all, since it seems to suggest that in a game where warfare has been extremely simplified in the name of focusing on politics, pops, and development (a decision I was initially very optimistic about), revolution basically boils down to a war that happens when you go forward with reforms you cant get support for and theres sufficient discontent. That would be a reasonable abstraction in games like EU4 or HOI4, but in Vicky3 there is no justification for what should be one of the most engaging and thematically significant parts of gameplay being straightforward at all, let alone redirecting to the one system we know for sure has been heavily stripped down and simplified.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

FryFroFella

First Lieutenant
66 Badges
May 30, 2015
251
1.228
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
That would be really cool if IGs had interests in foreign policies.
They absolutely should. When a subject state or member of a customs union starts pursuing policies sidelining Industrialists, Industrialists in Britain should have a ton of power to influence not only the British government but other Industrialist IGs around the world to start pushing their own governments for intervention.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

OurLordMonty

Sergeant
91 Badges
Jan 10, 2014
71
14
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
Really not a fan of the Game Over Option. I'm definitely more on the simulationist end of the player spectrum and prefer to be able to keep going even after mistakes have been made.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

VineFynn

Custom Title
79 Badges
Mar 10, 2012
1.635
1.753
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Magicka
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Cities in Motion
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Honor
  • Age of Wonders III
Sadly no, there's no support for that at present and things tend to be chaotic enough without simultaneous counter-revolutions. Something I'd love to explore in the future but right now it would conflict with some fundamental rules around Diplomatic Plays.
You can't have multiple civil wars *of any kind* at once? Isn't that a bit exploitable (and unrealistic)?
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions: