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Dev Diary #24 - Fervor, Religious Hostility, and Doctrine Showcase

Hello everyone, and welcome back to our final Dev Diary on Religion in Crusader Kings 3! Today I will be talking about what the mysterious Fervor is, how that ties into Heresies and Heresy Outbreaks, as well as how Religious Hostility works and some of the ways that Doctrines can impact it. To wrap things up, I will show off some additional never-before seen Tenets and Doctrines!

Fervor
Every Faith has a Fervor score, which is a representation of how strongly adherents of that Faith believe in the righteousness of their religious and secular leaders. While Fervor has a slow ticking increase over time, it is primarily influenced by the virtuousness or sinfulness of that Faith’s leaders. Virtuous priests can inspire a populace and rally the people behind themselves, while sinful ones (especially religious heads) can cause massive scandals that damage the faithful’s trust in their religious institutions.

DD_WM_Scandal.png

[A screenshot of the Pope looking very guilty after being caught in flagrante]

Adherents of a Faith with high Fervor are willing to fight and die for their beliefs. They gain bonus resistance to attempts to convert them to another faith, and both secular and religious leaders can declare Holy Wars to spread their Faith across the world. However, while these Holy Wars are ostensibly waged in the name of the divine, in practice they often tend to be little more than opportunistic land-grabs — as a result, every Holy War declared will slightly damage a Faiths’ Fervor, while losing land to hostile Holy Wars will actually increase your Faith’s Fervor as the embattled faithful dig in and fight for their way of life!

When a Faith’s Fervor drops, adherents of that Faith become vulnerable to conversion. Characters are more willing to accept a Demand Conversion when their Faith’s Fervor is low, and the Court Chaplain’s ‘Convert County’ task gains a scaling bonus against Faiths whose Fervor is lower than their own. In addition, if Fervor drops low enough, a Faith becomes vulnerable to heresy outbreaks!

Heresy Outbreaks
A heresy outbreak is what happens when a ruler becomes disillusioned with their current Faith and is swayed to join a different one. If there is already a heretical Faith present nearby, they will convert to that one automatically. If no suitable heresies are around, they will become a heresiarch and start espousing the doctrines of a brand new Faith, which is typically (but not always), one from their Religion.

A ruler who converts to or founds a new heretical Faith will then attempt to convince nearby rulers of their old Faith to join them, with the success rate of this being dependent on how low their old Faith’s fervor has fallen. This means that while heresy outbreaks can vary wildly in size, converts to the new heresy will tend to remain clustered together in a specific region — this both protects the burgeoning Faith while simultaneously limiting its influence in distant lands.

DD_WM_Heresy.png

[A screenshot showing an outbreak of Lollardy, originating in southern England]

As you can imagine, heresy outbreaks are incredibly divisive events; nobody wants to sit on the fence when your immortal soul is on the line! As a result, after a heresy outbreak occurs both the old Faith and the new heretical Faith will gain a substantial increase to their Fervor score. As this is likely to encourage Holy Wars for both sides, it is not uncommon for a new period of religious violence to follow as the two Faiths fight for supremacy!

Ultimately, the flow from scandal to heresy to zealousness and back will cause Fervor to vary wildly over the course of a game of CK3. Unlike the relatively static Mortal Authority in CK2, this means that even the big dominant religions will have periods of weakness, making them vulnerable to fractures and religious violence.

Religious Hostility
Speaking of religious violence, how does that work? With so many different Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III, how do they view each other? What is the difference between how an Orthodox ruler views a Catholic, a Bogomil, and an Ash’ari?

In Crusader Kings III this is all handled by the Religious Hostility system. For characters of a given Faith, every other Faith in the game will receive one of the following rankings:
  1. Righteous
  2. Astray
  3. Hostile
  4. Evil
Righteous is how a Faith views itself and, in a few rare circumstances, other Faiths that have certain things in common with it. Righteous Faiths have no penalties at all with each other.

Astray is how a Faith views other Faiths that have similar goals and ideals but are just a little… wrong. For example, Orthodoxy and Catholicism consider each other to be Astray. Astray Faiths have only a minor opinion penalty with each other.

Hostile is how most Faiths view their heresies and other significantly divergent Faiths. Opinion penalties are more substantial at this level, and rulers gain the ability to declare Holy Wars against rulers of Hostile Faiths. However, intermarriage is still common when it is politically convenient, and alliances can still be forged between rulers of Hostile Faiths.

Evil Faiths are considered to be an anathema, and cannot be tolerated. Evil Faiths suffer the most severe opinion penalty possible, and Holy Wars against each other become commonplace. Rulers will almost never accept marriages with characters of an Evil Faith, making alliances all-but-impossible.

So how is Religious Hostility determined? The primary factor is what Religion Family both Faiths belong to:

DD_Hostility.png

[A screenshot of a spreadsheet showing how base Religious Hostility is calculated, with Abrahamic Faiths being the least tolerant and Eastern Faiths being the most tolerant]

But wait, if Abrahamic Faiths view other Faiths within the same Religion has Hostile, why do Catholicism and Orthodoxy only see each other as Astray? The answer to that, my friend, is Doctrines!

Doctrine & Tenet Showcase
Now we’re going to take some time to reveal a bunch of the various Doctrines and Tenets available for Faiths in Crusader Kings 3. For starters, the Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic, and Coptic Faiths all have the ‘Ecumenism’ Doctrine, which changes the Hostility of any other Faith with the same Doctrine to just ‘Astray’, thus allowing these Faiths to have cordial relations with each other.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Ecumenism.png

[A screenshot showing the Ecumenism doctrine, which reduces Hostility between certain Christian Faiths]

In a similar vein, the various Muslim Faiths all have a doctrine representing their belief in the true succession for Muhammad. The various Sunni Faiths all see each other as Astray, with the same being true for the collective Shia Faiths and the collective Muhakkima Faiths.

The embattled minority of Gnostic Faiths have an ever stronger version of this; having always struggled to have their beliefs accepted, they see all other Gnostic Faiths as being fully ‘Righteous’. This allows us to have coalitions of Faiths within or even outside of a Religion that see some Faiths as allies and others as enemies, completely changing the dynamic of how religious relations play out in Crusader Kings III.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Gnositism.png

[A screenshot showing the Gnosticism Tenet, which among other things eliminates Religious Hostility between Gnostic Faiths]

Finally there are other Tenets which can modify how your Faith sees, and is seen by, Faiths in other Religions.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Syncretism.png

[A screenshot showing various Syncretism Tenets, which reduce Religious Hostility across entire Religions]

Diplomacy not your thing? Try some warfare!

DD_WM_Tenets_Warfare.png

[A screenshot showing various warfare-focuses Doctrines and Tenets, including Armed Pilgrimages which enables Crusades]

Or is all of this just too secular for you? After all, isn’t religion supposed to be about spiritualism, a belief in otherworldly entities beyond our understanding? Well then maybe one of these tenets would suit you...

DD_WM_Tenets_Mysticism.png

[A screenshot showing various Tenets of a more spiritual nature: Astrology, Auspicious Birthright, Reincarnation, Sun Worship, Sky Burials, and Esotericism]

Of course, this is just a sample of the Tenets and Doctrines that we have in Crusader Kings 3. It would take too long to go into this level of detail for all of them, but here is a teaser of some available Tenets on the Faith Creation screen, showing both some previously revealed and unrevealed Tenets.

DD_WM_Tenets_List.png

[A snippet of a handful of available Tenets from the Faith Creation screen]

That’s all for now — hopefully this post has given you something to think about as you plan your first campaign of Crusader Kings III, and every one after that!
 
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I spy Stonehenge and the Tower of London on the map. I wonder what other landmarks we will see and how they will function in the game. CKII's Stonehenge was a little silly.
 
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Choorus

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Interesting. In the final screenshot why are some tenets hatched out?
Are these already chosen, or somehow unavailable?

Is there any way to change the religious hostility value in game without changing tenets?
Could you in some fashion manage to make Catholics and Orthodox consider each other "Righteous", and thus co-valid paths to salvation? (Maybe as a first step in an eventual "mend the schism" pathway for future use?)

I've asked question about the tenets being changeable for the same religion during the game. It won't be in the base game, but is planned to be added later on, so things like e.g. councils can reshape the doctrines. I suppose that's enough to make gradual drift apart or reconciliation between the Western and Eastern Christianity possible.
 

Danir

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I like the concept of fervor and I absolutely see the reasoning behind the holy wars change, however, does fervor lost this way have a cap of sorts ?
In case of the absence of one I could imagine a situation where the Catholics reconquering the Mediterranean from the Muslims creates a great turmoil inside the Catholic world, leading people to doubt the church to be right and just, although the Christian God supposedly has just helped them in recovering long lost territories from their arguably biggest rivals. Which frankly doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
Love the Dev Diary though.

EDIT: And the faster the conquests the greater the turmoil which would be a bit counter-intuitive. People getting tired from constant "crusading" makes sense, but not people abandoning their religion for being too succesful.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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I think your understanding of the gameplay is mislead by the fact that the good Baron seems to have misread his own table: it says nothing about the relations between different Faiths of the same Religion. Insular and Catholicism will both be Faiths within the Christian Religion. So they're not in the table: I guess that means the default relationship between them is Astray?

DD_Hostility.png


So, if you are Abrahamic (as Christians will be), and both same family/same religion (as different Christian faiths will be), you are looking at different faiths being "hostile" by default.

Same family/same religion implies "Different faith" here.
 
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If Catholic has the "ecumenic" trait, then an heresy having the ecumenic trait will be considered "just" astray?

Also, it would be great if the tolérance of the religion groups was dynamic, too... But I guess that would be overcomplicated to implement, and I would not even know how it could be implemented...
 
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IIRC The Zun religion was more like the localized Hindu beliefs of the Zunbils. With the way CK3 is handling religion, which has broken up Hinduism itself, Zunism existing makes perfect sense. :)

So another question for @Baron von Shoes What religious group is Zunism in? Eastern or Pagan. I hope that they are in Eastern. :)
Well, I was not really worried about them being unable to create Zunism, so much as Zunism not being included since 867 seems to be the earliest start date they are going to have. I know Zunists were still around during 867, but not for much longer, so I was not sure if they would make the cut.
 
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If Catholic has the "ecumenic" trait, then an heresy having the ecumenic trait will be considered "just" astray?

Also, it would be great if the tolérance of the religion groups was dynamic, too... But I guess that would be overcomplicated to implement, and I would not even know how it could be implemented...
Remember, heresies are simply different faiths of the same religion now. Catholicism and Orthodox are different faiths of the same religion, Chrisitanity, and do not get heresies specific to their faith, like they did in CK2.
 

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IIRC The Zun religion was more like the localized Hindu beliefs of the Zunbils. With the way CK3 is handling religion, which has broken up Hinduism itself, Zunism existing makes perfect sense. :)

So another question for @Baron von Shoes What religious group is Zunism in? Eastern or Pagan. I hope that they are in Eastern. :)

Technically speaking, Zunism isn't simply a localized variant of Hinduism. The worship of Zun has its roots in Hepthalite paganism, but Zunism was heavily influenced by Shaivist and Suryanite Hinduism, and to a lesser extent by other surrounding religions like Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and local Indo-Iranian polytheistic traditions.
 

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If Catholic has the "ecumenic" trait, then an heresy having the ecumenic trait will be considered "just" astray?

Also, it would be great if the tolérance of the religion groups was dynamic, too... But I guess that would be overcomplicated to implement, and I would not even know how it could be implemented...

It could eventually be done by having a "base" value for relations between faiths, with relations outside of the base value decaying towards the base, with ecumenicism and gnosticism (and similar traits) changing the base. You could then have numbers of similar/identical traits affect the decay rate or provide a boost/penalty to the value you trend towards.

So : if you'd consider the other faith "evil", the base might be -100. If you consider them "hostile" it might be 0, If you consider them astray it might be +100, if you consider them righteous it might be +200. You then have various things alter this, much like the relationship counter between empires/characters in other games. However it'd be based on the faiths' attitudes and similarities rather than any one character's traits.

This would be *somewhat* more complicated, admittedly, and would be worth being the core of a later mechanical change.
 
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vandevere

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Only one question. Will Popes who wrongfully Excommunicate good Catholic Rulers-either on their own, or at the behest of other Rulers-still get free passes like they do in CK2?
 
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DeinonychusTaco

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This looks like such a great system. Really excited for this. I was skeptical about whether CK3 would really be much of an improvement over CK2, but this is the first game system where I legitimately feel like continuing to play 2 will be unrewarding now that I know how 3 works (I'll still play 2 for a long time though, I'm sure).
 

Darkspysrival

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The Pope is cought with his pants down, what do you do?
Option 4: Abolish the Papacy and begin the Renaissance centuries earlier. (Suicidally difficult, savescum for best results)
Option 5: Abolish the Papacy and restore the Pentarchy (You kids like to be OP too much)
 
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Tschobo

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Well, I like this dev diary more than the last one (which in my mind created more questions than solved). I like the 4 opinions with the faiths, but I would love a more dynamic approach to that (and maybe a fifth one between astray and hostile).

The build up of frevor is so much better than the moral authority of CK2. Either catholicism or the muslim religions had an enormous downfall after losing some holy wars through heresies and this changes the picture.
 
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PedroLuiz

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It seems a really off to have astrology give naval speed implying a link to celestial navigation. Astronomy is a science and completely distinct from astrology. Sure many astronomers during the time period were also astrologers, but many other medieval astronomers thought such practices were heretical.
Was the astrology-astronomy dichotomy even a thing at this point?
 
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