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Dev Diary #24 - Fervor, Religious Hostility, and Doctrine Showcase

Hello everyone, and welcome back to our final Dev Diary on Religion in Crusader Kings 3! Today I will be talking about what the mysterious Fervor is, how that ties into Heresies and Heresy Outbreaks, as well as how Religious Hostility works and some of the ways that Doctrines can impact it. To wrap things up, I will show off some additional never-before seen Tenets and Doctrines!

Fervor
Every Faith has a Fervor score, which is a representation of how strongly adherents of that Faith believe in the righteousness of their religious and secular leaders. While Fervor has a slow ticking increase over time, it is primarily influenced by the virtuousness or sinfulness of that Faith’s leaders. Virtuous priests can inspire a populace and rally the people behind themselves, while sinful ones (especially religious heads) can cause massive scandals that damage the faithful’s trust in their religious institutions.

DD_WM_Scandal.png

[A screenshot of the Pope looking very guilty after being caught in flagrante]

Adherents of a Faith with high Fervor are willing to fight and die for their beliefs. They gain bonus resistance to attempts to convert them to another faith, and both secular and religious leaders can declare Holy Wars to spread their Faith across the world. However, while these Holy Wars are ostensibly waged in the name of the divine, in practice they often tend to be little more than opportunistic land-grabs — as a result, every Holy War declared will slightly damage a Faiths’ Fervor, while losing land to hostile Holy Wars will actually increase your Faith’s Fervor as the embattled faithful dig in and fight for their way of life!

When a Faith’s Fervor drops, adherents of that Faith become vulnerable to conversion. Characters are more willing to accept a Demand Conversion when their Faith’s Fervor is low, and the Court Chaplain’s ‘Convert County’ task gains a scaling bonus against Faiths whose Fervor is lower than their own. In addition, if Fervor drops low enough, a Faith becomes vulnerable to heresy outbreaks!

Heresy Outbreaks
A heresy outbreak is what happens when a ruler becomes disillusioned with their current Faith and is swayed to join a different one. If there is already a heretical Faith present nearby, they will convert to that one automatically. If no suitable heresies are around, they will become a heresiarch and start espousing the doctrines of a brand new Faith, which is typically (but not always), one from their Religion.

A ruler who converts to or founds a new heretical Faith will then attempt to convince nearby rulers of their old Faith to join them, with the success rate of this being dependent on how low their old Faith’s fervor has fallen. This means that while heresy outbreaks can vary wildly in size, converts to the new heresy will tend to remain clustered together in a specific region — this both protects the burgeoning Faith while simultaneously limiting its influence in distant lands.

DD_WM_Heresy.png

[A screenshot showing an outbreak of Lollardy, originating in southern England]

As you can imagine, heresy outbreaks are incredibly divisive events; nobody wants to sit on the fence when your immortal soul is on the line! As a result, after a heresy outbreak occurs both the old Faith and the new heretical Faith will gain a substantial increase to their Fervor score. As this is likely to encourage Holy Wars for both sides, it is not uncommon for a new period of religious violence to follow as the two Faiths fight for supremacy!

Ultimately, the flow from scandal to heresy to zealousness and back will cause Fervor to vary wildly over the course of a game of CK3. Unlike the relatively static Mortal Authority in CK2, this means that even the big dominant religions will have periods of weakness, making them vulnerable to fractures and religious violence.

Religious Hostility
Speaking of religious violence, how does that work? With so many different Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III, how do they view each other? What is the difference between how an Orthodox ruler views a Catholic, a Bogomil, and an Ash’ari?

In Crusader Kings III this is all handled by the Religious Hostility system. For characters of a given Faith, every other Faith in the game will receive one of the following rankings:
  1. Righteous
  2. Astray
  3. Hostile
  4. Evil
Righteous is how a Faith views itself and, in a few rare circumstances, other Faiths that have certain things in common with it. Righteous Faiths have no penalties at all with each other.

Astray is how a Faith views other Faiths that have similar goals and ideals but are just a little… wrong. For example, Orthodoxy and Catholicism consider each other to be Astray. Astray Faiths have only a minor opinion penalty with each other.

Hostile is how most Faiths view their heresies and other significantly divergent Faiths. Opinion penalties are more substantial at this level, and rulers gain the ability to declare Holy Wars against rulers of Hostile Faiths. However, intermarriage is still common when it is politically convenient, and alliances can still be forged between rulers of Hostile Faiths.

Evil Faiths are considered to be an anathema, and cannot be tolerated. Evil Faiths suffer the most severe opinion penalty possible, and Holy Wars against each other become commonplace. Rulers will almost never accept marriages with characters of an Evil Faith, making alliances all-but-impossible.

So how is Religious Hostility determined? The primary factor is what Religion Family both Faiths belong to:

DD_Hostility.png

[A screenshot of a spreadsheet showing how base Religious Hostility is calculated, with Abrahamic Faiths being the least tolerant and Eastern Faiths being the most tolerant]

But wait, if Abrahamic Faiths view other Faiths within the same Religion has Hostile, why do Catholicism and Orthodoxy only see each other as Astray? The answer to that, my friend, is Doctrines!

Doctrine & Tenet Showcase
Now we’re going to take some time to reveal a bunch of the various Doctrines and Tenets available for Faiths in Crusader Kings 3. For starters, the Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic, and Coptic Faiths all have the ‘Ecumenism’ Doctrine, which changes the Hostility of any other Faith with the same Doctrine to just ‘Astray’, thus allowing these Faiths to have cordial relations with each other.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Ecumenism.png

[A screenshot showing the Ecumenism doctrine, which reduces Hostility between certain Christian Faiths]

In a similar vein, the various Muslim Faiths all have a doctrine representing their belief in the true succession for Muhammad. The various Sunni Faiths all see each other as Astray, with the same being true for the collective Shia Faiths and the collective Muhakkima Faiths.

The embattled minority of Gnostic Faiths have an ever stronger version of this; having always struggled to have their beliefs accepted, they see all other Gnostic Faiths as being fully ‘Righteous’. This allows us to have coalitions of Faiths within or even outside of a Religion that see some Faiths as allies and others as enemies, completely changing the dynamic of how religious relations play out in Crusader Kings III.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Gnositism.png

[A screenshot showing the Gnosticism Tenet, which among other things eliminates Religious Hostility between Gnostic Faiths]

Finally there are other Tenets which can modify how your Faith sees, and is seen by, Faiths in other Religions.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Syncretism.png

[A screenshot showing various Syncretism Tenets, which reduce Religious Hostility across entire Religions]

Diplomacy not your thing? Try some warfare!

DD_WM_Tenets_Warfare.png

[A screenshot showing various warfare-focuses Doctrines and Tenets, including Armed Pilgrimages which enables Crusades]

Or is all of this just too secular for you? After all, isn’t religion supposed to be about spiritualism, a belief in otherworldly entities beyond our understanding? Well then maybe one of these tenets would suit you...

DD_WM_Tenets_Mysticism.png

[A screenshot showing various Tenets of a more spiritual nature: Astrology, Auspicious Birthright, Reincarnation, Sun Worship, Sky Burials, and Esotericism]

Of course, this is just a sample of the Tenets and Doctrines that we have in Crusader Kings 3. It would take too long to go into this level of detail for all of them, but here is a teaser of some available Tenets on the Faith Creation screen, showing both some previously revealed and unrevealed Tenets.

DD_WM_Tenets_List.png

[A snippet of a handful of available Tenets from the Faith Creation screen]

That’s all for now — hopefully this post has given you something to think about as you plan your first campaign of Crusader Kings III, and every one after that!
 
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The Astray-Hostile-Evil system seems very neat! Will it play a role in what rulers are able to offer to join a holy war? As in, Gnostics being able to help each other out since they're all considered Righteous, but Catholics helping Orthodox (and vice-versa) not so much, since they're only at "Astray" level.
 
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Great Dev Diary, Religion seems to be Ck3’s strongest selling point so far, but I have a few worries on something mentioned

What are the relations between Armenians and Coptics? It should be Righteous as described in the dev diary since they were the same religion with different local leaders, Coptic Pope over Egypt, Armenian Catholicos over Armenia. Actually I don’t think even that would represent how close they are as a single religion, but I think a Righteous status at the very least would be the most accurate description of their relationship... if not righteous then what is their relationship?

Otherwise great dev diary that continues to make the game more and more appealing.
 
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Elvenoob

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Does this

> , they will become a heresiarch and start espousing the doctrines of a brand new Faith, which is typically (but not always), one from their Religion.

Mean that, say, some heretic uprisings in, like, Greece for example will be Hellenic rather than christian? Like, where there is an associated dead faith, that joins the list of possible heresies in the area?
 
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If there are two gnostic faiths that would normally consider one another Astray, do they see each other as Righteous? I assume this is the case, but the tooltip makes this unclear
 
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vyshan

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Question: why are pagan faiths hostile to other pagan religions? Considering the nature of pagan religions wouldn't it be regarded as Astray instead. I don't think that the norse when settling in Russia / Ukraine were religiously hostile to the Slavic pagans.
 
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Question: why are pagan faiths hostile to other pagan religions? Considering the nature of pagan religions wouldn't it be regarded as Astray instead. I don't think that the norse when settling in Russia / Ukraine were religiously hostile to the Slavic pagans.

Maybe some faiths will be in the same religion : slavic, norse, baltic could be together ; magyar and tengri too ; same for african pagan faiths
 
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Bearnest

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as a result, every Holy War declared will slightly damage a Faiths’ Fervor,
As a mechanic, this is fine; it'll keep realms from exploiting Holy Wars for blobbing.
As a representation of RL, I think it misses the mark: I'd imagine people's fervor would spike after a calling for an Holy War that would retrieve land and righteous believers from heathens. And even more if it's successful.

When can we see the new units in detail, and is there going to be different types for the different culture groups?
 
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View attachment 571932
[A screenshot showing various Tenets of a more spiritual nature: Astrology, Auspicious Birthright, Reincarnation, Sun Worship, Sky Burials, and Esotericism]
Esotericism and Auspicious Birthright are very interesting indeed. I assume an Esoteric Education will give a high likelihood of making the child one of Wise Man, Mystic, or Miracle Worker, at the expense of not being able to control other childhood traits. When are we getting a childhood education dev diary? The system clearly has one big change at the very least!
 
Apr 8, 2020
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A very interesting DD, but still, I guess I still have some questions.

1. Will organized religions actually be organized? Is there a church panel where players could see, influence and nominate religious leaders?

2. Can adherents of the same faith have different religious heads? (I will expand on this idea some day; hopefully it is not impossible to mod, since it requires adding another level beneath faiths)

3. Is there a breaking point for bonuses in Fervor when you lose a holy war? It seems strange for a faith to repeatedly lose land ... yet be more and more self-justified.
 
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I think Holy Wars should give Fervor but only if you do not take the land for yourself. You should gain Fervor for giving the land to the pope.

I don't think that really happened though. Maybe you can avoid the fervor loss by setting up a new kingdom of the religion but you lose fervor if it really is just a land grab?

Each Holy War could have an associated candidate, similar to the current crusades mechanic in ck2
 
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chelvo

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Interesting indeed, a shame that the religious opinion system seems rather static instead of dynamic though.
 

Eltener

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It seems a really off to have astrology give naval speed implying a link to celestial navigation. Astronomy is a science and completely distinct from astrology. Sure many astronomers during the time period were also astrologers, but many other medieval astronomers thought such practices were heretical.
 
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SeekTruthFromFx

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Is "Insular" going to have Ecumenism as well? People have pointed out how so-called "Celtic" Christianity (which I think is what "Insular" is trying to represent) was considered pretty much like a bunch of problematic Catholics that were slightly resistant to Rome's authority and had a few differences on doctrines (mostly minor stuff that got smoothed over time). I reckon that there should be either a "Righteous" or "Astray" relation between Insular and Roman Catholics (unless Insular is meant to represent something else).

I think your understanding of the gameplay is mislead by the fact that the good Baron seems to have misread his own table: it says nothing about the relations between different Faiths of the same Religion. Insular and Catholicism will both be Faiths within the Christian Religion. So they're not in the table: I guess that means the default relationship between them is Astray?

But I wholeheartedly agree that it makes no sense to have Catholics considering Insular Christians as further away than the Greeks. The Insular should surely have the Ecumenism Doctrine too. After all, they were so committed to Ecunemism that they basically negotiated away their future in northern England at the Synod of Whitby....

I also hope that Insular also needs to drop the 'Armed Pilgrimages' Tenet that Catholicism has. To quote an Insular Christian from a few centuries before the CKII era:

Gildas said:
it has become a proverb far and wide, that the Britons are neither brave in war nor faithful in time of peace.

There were plenty of brave British/Welsh warriors, but they spent too much time fighting each other and arguably not enough time fighting the pagans....

Question: why are pagan faiths hostile to other pagan religions? Considering the nature of pagan religions wouldn't it be regarded as Astray instead. I don't think that the norse when settling in Russia / Ukraine were religiously hostile to the Slavic pagans.

Old Norse religion is really not my thing, but weren't they largely tribal gods rather than universal gods?
 
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vyshan

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Praise the sun! Zunists are confirmed, that is great news.
IIRC The Zun religion was more like the localized Hindu beliefs of the Zunbils. With the way CK3 is handling religion, which has broken up Hinduism itself, Zunism existing makes perfect sense. :)

So another question for @Baron von Shoes What religious group is Zunism in? Eastern or Pagan. I hope that they are in Eastern. :)
 
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Heresy Outbreaks
A heresy outbreak is what happens when a ruler becomes disillusioned with their current Faith and is swayed to join a different one.

Question, If i'm right fervor is global to everyone ?

If yes so every rulers from a religion can embrace a heresy outbreak when the fervor get too low ? So what's the difference between those who do and those who do not ?


And one another question :

Only righteous faiths call call each other to crusade and great holy war ?
 
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