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Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
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TheDungen

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Hopefully not while remaining the same faith because I don’t want to see something stupid like sunni gay marriage or pagan communion
I think it should be possible but it should be hard.
Feel like fervor could be something similar to morale authority, it is quite important according to the Learning Lifestyle DD.
I hope it's the opposite of
The Hellenistic period may be seen to end either with the final conquest of the Greek heartlands by Rome in 146BC following the Achaean War, with the final defeat of the Ptolemaic Kingdom at the Battle of Actium in 31 BC, or even the move by Roman emperor Constantine the Great of the capital of the Roman Empire to Constantinople in AD 330.
867 is the earlier date you can start in Crusader Kings 3 so it doesn't make a lot of sense for it to be playable within the game's time frame.
Technically, you could play it. It's there so you can potentially play as it. It's not really meant to be playable though.
Does this imply that Roman and Hellenic paganism have been split?
For the Glory of Jupiter I guess.
I'd really like to see at least a token celtic pagan religion; surely it'd be useful for dead british characters? It doesn't have to be fleshed out, much like hellenism isn't, modders can do that, but it would be so so nice to just have it baked in officially rather than having to be added. Awesome to see all the rest of this, though, I'm really happy that the main change to religion from CK2 is "let's have more of them".
Isn't that what they did to Hellenic and then ot swamped in people who wanted it properly implemented.
What is the rationale for separating the Copts from the Armenians? This is considering they are both part of the Oriental Orthodoxy. This would be the equivalent of splitting the Eastern Orthodoxy into Greeks, Georgians, and Russians.
So they get separate religion heads and separate "religious authority".
I'd argue given that Zoroastrianism will be under the Oriental family as a non-Abrahamic Asian faith, Yazidi likely will be too.
Zoroastrian should go with the Abrahamic ones.
NIce DD!

But...

Sacred Lies as tenet? I think it's a little bit ridiculous, i mean, is there really a religion that encourage lies?

I really can't think the connection between lie and spirituality
You'd be wrong, deceitfulness as seen as good in the early persecuted Christianity. In fact all the major abrahamic religions have a concept where lies are permitted to protect ones life, one's faith or ones brethren.
Sure, they still are on good terms with each other, but my point is that they did not operate as one body at the time they split from the other christian groups. I'd rather see them represented as two groups who have special opinion bonuses with each other for that reason, rather than trying to cram both into the same group.
Problem is what happens should they border one another, will the copts be mad because the Armenians hold Jerusalem?
Nope I mean if I walked out of my house as a Coptic Christian Right now and entered an Armenian Church I could take Communion no problem. A Greek Orthodox? I wouldn’t even be allowed into the building. And they certainly did operate as one body. Admittedly the Coptic Church operates more with the Syrian Orthodox who were closer but the Armenian church stood in Defence of Dioscorus during the Council of Chalcedon and chose to refuse the results of the Council and join up with the Coptics. Both churches are close, and have near identical theology. Literally the only differences being cultural and linguistic, none theological. And again I’m fine if they can be two religions but still treat each other as one religion and share Holy Sites. I mean even you can’t deny that if one controls Jerusalem the other should get a moral authority boost from that for sure, plus if you have a zealous character it shouldn’t create a strange negative opinion boost for people your literally in communion with. Finally what about province religion? That’s the biggest question, if an Armenian controls Coptic territory or vice versa will they convert it? No, they will not; and for obvious reasons, for the same reasons Russian Orthodox would have to be completely insane to proselytize a Greek Orthodox
Yiu should probably not speak in present day terms because I know you can take communion in a catholic church as a protestant no problem.
Curious if there is any good article or anything on Kush religion? I'm thinking that might be my first game now since I wasn't expecting that and I just wanted to get a good read.
It's the old Egyptian one, praying to ptah or Isis or so on.
I just don't understand what was wrong with calling it "Norse" to begin with. No slap-fighting about modern neo-pagan groups, and with 99 faiths, it's possible the continental Germanics have their own slightly distinct faith as well.
NO Absolutly no! The contintental Germanics have exactly the same faith to to point that the telling of the Sigurd/Siegfried story is the same. The reason for this is that a lot of prominent pagan fled to denmarks when Saxony fell to Charlemagne. They considered the danes members of the same faith just as much as the danes considered the Swedish or Norwegians as such.
Does satanism, or some flavor of it, have any representation in the faiths? Or is that something you'd have to do via custom faith?

I personally would favour the term Asatruz as Asatru Fellowship is the name of the officially registered religion in Iceland, with some 1, something % registered.

Plus it sounds flavored
What have the Icelanders got against the Vanir?
Is it possible male and female homosexuality were historically treated differently? (probably depending on what faith we are talking about).
Atleast they should have diffrent traits, female homosexuality should matter a lot less for fertility, because of skewed gender dynamics.
I'd suggest that there be an Iranian religion group that includes Zorastrianism Manichaeism, and Yazidism.

I'd also suggest making a Dharmic religious group for Hinduism, Janism, and Buddhism (this might make conversion between Buddhism and Confusionism harder, but that probably better solved by a doctrine or tennet).

It just feels wrong that the Abrihamic faiths are the only ones to get a proper religious group and everything else is kinda lumped together (I know the rest are put into two piles, but it still feels lumped). Especially since given all the exchanges between the Abrahamic and the Iranian religions, the Iranian religions should be lumped in with the Abrihamic religions instead of the oriental religions if they are going to be lumped in at all (could call the group Occidental). Zorastrians were even recognized as people of the book by Muslim rulers (though I believe this also got extended to Hindus).
I like this idea. The non pagan religions broken up in Oriental and Occidental.
 

WatershockPlayz

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Yiu should probably not speak in present day terms because I know you can take communion in a catholic church as a protestant no problem.
Not in a Coptic Church for sure though, don’t know about Catholicism but taking communion is pretty strict around here lol. Besides actually being of the faith you can’t eat 8 hours before taking communion, can’t spit or take something out of your mouth for 10 hours etc. A Coptic can only take Communion in a non Oriental church or vise versa in the rare case their is no Oriental Church in the area but their is an Eastern Orthodox one, and even then you need permission from the Bishop.
 

Gurkhal

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Does this imply that Roman and Hellenic paganism have been split?
For the Glory of Jupiter I guess.

If this is true then I'll be the first to say, Awesome!

Perhaps this could allow us to diversify these religions and explore aspects such as parts for the common people in more depth rather than getting stuck with the twelve Olympians who while very important was not the whole range of powers active in peoples' lives. Not to mention oracles, the shifting use of magic, mystery cults and so on and on.
 

nogluten

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Celtic paganism is not in. Egyptian paganism is... kind of in? Kushitism (shown in the DD's screenshot) draws many elements and influences from it, including the inclusion of various Egyptian gods as part of its pantheon. However, it is not immediately recognizable as the Egyptian paganism that was popularized after Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign, since it focuses more on Upper Egypt/Nubia than Lower Egypt.

Gnostic Christianity is in. Several varieties, in fact. They all have special relationships with each other (and manicheanism).

Pantheons are also represented for all polytheistic Faiths, as well. Not all of them have the 'pick a god' mechanics that existed in CK2, but when a character goes to war they'll pray to their Faith's war deity, when they pray for a bountiful harvest they'll pray to their harvest/wealth deity, when lamenting a misfortune your character might curse their Faith's fate deity, etc.

Does this mean that Manicheanism won't just be a Zoroastrian heresy like in CK2?

Also, with all these extra religions and such, will Celtic Christianity be added in? I know that by the 800's it was mostly gone, but even just having it in the history files or in Iona (or whatever the equivalent county is in CK3), would be useful.
 

elvain

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My question was about westward expansion of the map. Specifically the land between modern day Mali aka Ghana in ck2 and the Atlantic ocean. There were dozens of kingdoms and cultures in that vast area, but the senegambian religion of this dev diary was not present on the ck2 game map at all. Hence my question regarding religion for the area of West Africa we are used to from ck2, and further question how far the map extends west and south west of Wagadou aka ghana in ck2.

There's a lot of west Africa missing from ck2. Extending the map southwards towards modern day Nigeria and Ghana is great, though I doubt the map is going all the way to coast there (which is fine), so no, not 'all' of West Africa is confirmed, West Africa is a huge area.
It has been confirmed that the map will include the coast of Nigeria. With this in mind, it seems like they don't want to cut any relevant parts of West Africa off. Just assuming.
And another assumption is based on looking at the east of Africa, where now we have 2 unique pagan faiths. Which makes me assume that there will be also few and not just one in the West.
Despite the great improvement of Holy Fury's Africa's paganism, there is still a lot what can be done... and I hope this is what will happen in CK3

I bet CK3's West Africa will look nowhere near CK2's
 

NarcomancerPL

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Does this mean that Manicheanism won't just be a Zoroastrian heresy like in CK2?

Also, with all these extra religions and such, will Celtic Christianity be added in? I know that by the 800's it was mostly gone, but even just having it in the history files or in Iona (or whatever the equivalent county is in CK3), would be useful.
I really wanted Celtic Christianity to be included in normal CK2, but there are some problems with it. As far as I remember Celtic Christians were accepting Pope in Rome and doctrinally they were really close to the Orthodox Church. Correct me if I'm wrong :)

But I want different branch of christianity. I'd love to play Papars in Iceland ^^ I'm not sure what was their attitude towards Pope tho
 

nogluten

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I really wanted Celtic Christianity to be included in normal CK2, but there are some problems with it. As far as I remember Celtic Christians were accepting Pope in Rome and doctrinally they were really close to the Orthodox Church. Correct me if I'm wrong :)

But I want different branch of christianity. I'd love to play Papars in Iceland ^^ I'm not sure what was their attitude towards Pope tho

Yeah, Celtic Christians were very similar to Catholics, but with a different dating of Easter, and they were much more focused on monasticism, learning, and pilgrimage. They accepted the Pope in Rome, but they viewed the head of the local abbey/monastery as their ecclesiastical head rather than the Pope, for the most part. There were several other differences, but those are the main ones.
 

StoneWolf

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So it seems that there will be at least two more Dev Diaries dealing with religion: One focused on Heresies and Custom Religions and the other focused on the Crusades, Jihads, holy wars and armed pilgrimages in general.

I hope we get one on Holy Orders, or that Holy Orders are included into one of the Dev Diaries above.
The same for, if possible, Ecumenical Councils for Catholicism/Orthodox/Apostolic etc

Since they have been speaking a bit about religious fervor and religious hostility, I think it would be a good guess that those two things are combined into a dev diary further down the road.

Expected religious dev diaries:
  1. Religion and faith (already shown in DD 20)
  2. Custom religions and faiths (confirmed for DD 21)
  3. Religious fervor and hostility
  4. Crusades, Jihads and other great holy wars
  5. Holy orders (perhaps in a dev diary coming with some other religious mechanic)
 

Katana500

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I really wanted Celtic Christianity to be included in normal CK2, but there are some problems with it. As far as I remember Celtic Christians were accepting Pope in Rome and doctrinally they were really close to the Orthodox Church. Correct me if I'm wrong :)

But I want different branch of christianity. I'd love to play Papars in Iceland ^^ I'm not sure what was their attitude towards Pope tho

Can different faiths not have different relationships with each other. So you could have Catholicism and Celtic Christianity start as friendly, allowing the Cetlic World to have its own doctrines. In most games like historically Celtic Christianity would become more similiar to Catholicism and dissapear by the 1100s, but perhaps a player could have it develop away from mainstream catholicism which would make both faiths hostile with the other.
 

Pomeranian

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How will county/populace conversion work? Will it be still tied to Moral Authority (or a similar mechanic)? One thing that used to make playing alternative history with faith in CK2 annoying was that a lot of religions were no go areas because it was near impossible to convert your counties to them. For example, playing a Monophysite England or a Italian Manichean as both those faiths have Holy Sites almost at the other side of the map and you could have very little impact on the MA of your faith.
 

Erendir

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Homosexuality being represented on the crime section of tenants implies different religions will have different relationships to it.
my point is maybe there should be separate traits and tenants for female and male homosexuality, with f.e., former "only" shunned and latter being criminal.
 

Caliburn

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Until now I've given you guys a lot of flag for the game going in the wrong direction, and it being absolutely ignorable for at least the next 3 years. But this DD...
This DD...! Oh my god, this looks just friggin' amazing. The possibilities I see! A ruler, who beats the pope over and over, until he lets women become clerics, or allows multi marriage...!
THE REFORMATION OF CELTIC FAITH!! Oh my various gods, I am so sold on this one DD. If things like the 2 or 3 traits per person, baronies and the like get an reevaluation and get pushed to this level, I'd gladly fork over a 100 bucks for the basegame and a pass for the next updates already.
 

NarcomancerPL

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Yeah, Celtic Christians were very similar to Catholics, but with a different dating of Easter, and they were much more focused on monasticism, learning, and pilgrimage. They accepted the Pope in Rome, but they viewed the head of the local abbey/monastery as their ecclesiastical head rather than the Pope, for the most part. There were several other differences, but those are the main ones.
Does it mean this religion should be autocephalous?

Until now I've given you guys a lot of flag for the game going in the wrong direction, and it being absolutely ignorable for at least the next 3 years. But this DD...
This DD...! Oh my god, this looks just friggin' amazing. The possibilities I see! A ruler, who beats the pope over and over, until he lets women become clerics, or allows multi marriage...!
THE REFORMATION OF CELTIC FAITH!! Oh my various gods, I am so sold on this one DD. If things like the 2 or 3 traits per person, baronies and the like get an reevaluation and get pushed to this level, I'd gladly fork over a 100 bucks for the basegame and a pass for the next updates already.
They already said Celtic Paganism is not going to be in the game. Although it graves me deeply :( Yet you'll still have ability to create your own religion so nothing is lost I guess :)
 

Comintern1919

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