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Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
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Massinissa

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Oh for sure.

This game though definitely makes me more interested in Islam. I was never that into it's game mechanics in CK2 (and hated decadence) but I want to play as it now just so I can tinker around with things like this and the different set of laws the sects will have.
I hope in the CK3 equivalent of secret societies, they had sufi brotherhoods and other organizations, muslims unfortunately really lack flavor in CK2
 

schwarherz

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Aren't the Forn Sith a racist mysoginist cult from Denmark? Pretty sure ancient viking people had more pressing concerns than being all about preserving white people and making sure women knew their place.
I'm not aware of Forn Sithr being racist or misogynistic . There may be some members of the organization that are, but the organization as a whole is not. If I were aware of such a thing I would not have suggested it. I would appreciate it if you did not spread such hateful and unfounded rumors.
 
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Spaninq

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Since we now know that there are 99 faiths, I can definitely see why societies weren't implemented yet. Imagine having 5 or 6 secret cults each leaving you a different holy text at night every few months. It would get out of hand very quickly.
 

velles

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You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
I hope that means Manicheanism won't be a Zoroastrian heresy anymore like it was in CK2. That idea was dumb as hell.

I'm also kinda bummed that Hellenism or Celtic paganism won't be normally availible in game - it isn't "nonsense" they should be availible in 867 bookmark, as these religions were still practiced in a few isolated areas and while Holy Fury went too unhistorical with the Hellenic restoration, there still should be option to convert, at least for count-tier characters that rule over that particular province (because I do agree king or emperor converting to a niche religion that is existing only in one province without any reason is unrealistic) and certain flavour mechanics could've been ported from CK2:HF.
That's also problem with pagan religions in general - paganism in game bookmarks dies out way too quickly than in real life (for example all provinces of Poland in CK2 were Catholic in 1066 bookmark - I mean come on, that was just 25-30 years after pagan reaction and while nobility was probably almost completely christianized, the provinces represent faith of the common folk and these were still practicing paganism for another few hundreds of years). Same thing with EU4 Lithuania which was for some reason completely Christian even though in real life most people were still pagan.

Also what about pre-schizm Christianity? Are Catholic & Orthodox still seperate in 867 bookmark?


Aside from the loss of Horde Mechanics, Merchant Republic Mechanics, and Empire mechanics, I haven't seen much that's even confirmed to be gone. I'm confused why people are so desperate to call this barebones when in the state of what we've seen already it already includes content that was like half of CK2's life-cycle+ in terms of DLC so far.
Well, CK3 should include most of CK2 features (maybe except the unpopular ones), especially since some things in CK2 (like Merchant Republics or Byzantine Imperial system) were oversimplified or historically inaccurate due to hardcoded limitations, so many people hoped that a new game will be a chance to change game groundworks. And yet not only they did not improve any of that, they also thrown many aspects of CK2 development (like Republic DLC or Byzantine Imperial system that was added in Holy Fury) out of the window. CK3 and its DLC should expand things that were not expanded in CK2 DLC, not selling same things once again in DLC. These aren't some "niche features" - Byzantine Empire was one of the most important medieval states and republics such as Venice also played huge role in crusades. So I think the backlash is quite understandable.
 
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treb

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I'm not aware of Forn Sithr being racist or misogynistic . There may be some members of the organization that are, but the organization as a whole is not. If I were aware of such a thing I would not have suggested it. I would appreciate it if you did not spread such hateful and unfounded rumors.
As far as I looked into them they appeared apolitical, not neo nonos.
 

TheGrinningMan

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Adding my "aye" to the CK3 team making a "dead", features-bare Celtic placeholder so modders have a base to work off of. Just makes coordinating different mods easier.

Also really looking forward to more complex divisions of the various faiths. And lazily musing what a theoretical After the End II could do with this system.
 

theKing1988

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Please, for the love of the gods, do NOT call Norse "Asatru". That term completely ignores the Vanir and is not really representative of what the people of the time believed (among a few other issues including the literal translation of the term). Might I suggest "Forn Siðr" (Forn Sidr or Forn Sithr if you must anglicize it) or The Troth if you want to call it something other than Nordic or Germanic Paganism? Those two terms are far more universal.

Forn Sidr is a MODERN-DAY term, invented by MODERN-DAY people, for a MODERN-DAY revival of Norse Paganism. Shouldn't we stay within what we have to work with from the time period, rather than making CK3 a messy mish-mash of Modern and Medieval
 

IndigoRage

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Disregarding any modern political or social issues, I would prefer to at least avoid neologisms as much as possible. Neo-Paganism is not accurately representative of its ancient counterparts.
 

SovereignGrave

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Forn Sidr is a MODERN-DAY term, invented by MODERN-DAY people, for a MODERN-DAY revival of Norse Paganism. Shouldn't we stay within what we have to work with from the time period, rather than making CK3 a messy mish-mash of Modern and Medieval

I'm pretty sure Asatru is also a modern term for the modern revival of Norse paganism.
 

theKing1988

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I'm pretty sure Asatru is also a modern term for the modern revival of Norse paganism.

I am aware of that. Norse Pagans didn't really need to classify their faith with a term, their faith permeated every part of every day life, kind of like Hinduism in India. Which incidentally also lacked a proper term until far after what later came to be known as Hinduism emerged in India.

That doesn't make Forn Sidr preferable though, that makes both terms less than desirable
 

treb

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Disregarding any modern political or social issues, I would prefer to at least avoid neologisms as much as possible. Neo-Paganism is not accurately representative of its ancient counterparts.

I'm pretty sure Asatru is also a modern term for the modern revival of Norse paganism.

Forn Sidr is a MODERN-DAY term, invented by MODERN-DAY people, for a MODERN-DAY revival of Norse Paganism. Shouldn't we stay within what we have to work with from the time period, rather than making CK3 a messy mish-mash of Modern and Medieval

There are no extant records of what the Norse or Germanic peoples called there religion. As far as ck3 goes Norse paganism will have to to have a neologism.
 

schwarherz

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Forn Sidr is a MODERN term, invented by MODERN-DAY people, for a MODERN revival of Norse Paganism. Shouldn't we stay within what we have to work with from the time period, rather than making CK3 a messy mish-mash of Modern and Medieval
I tend to agree. However, there is no term for the religion from the time period. Trust me, I've looked.

The main contenders are: Asatru, Vanatru, Forn Sithr, The Troth, and Heathenry. All of which are, as you said, modern words for the neo-pagan movements. But, if Paradox wants to move away from using "Germanic Paganism" these are their options. Asatru and Vanatru are both less than ideal (unless they include both of them separately which, I admit, would be really cool). Heathenry is vague and doesn't only apply to the Germanic religion but is more of a group of religions. Which leaves the two I suggested, The Troth and Forn Sithr.


EDIT:
There are no extant records of what the Norse or Germanic peoples called there religion. As far as ck3 goes Norse paganism will have to to have a neologism.
What they said.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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I'm not aware of Forn Sithr being racist or misogynistic . There may be some members of the organization that are, but the organization as a whole is not. If I were aware of such a thing I would not have suggested it. I would appreciate it if you did not spread such hateful and unfounded rumors.

This, taken from something claiming to be the **official** site representing the faith is not promising:

Forn Siðr ("Old Customs") is not a religion or faith to us. It is our truth, our ancestors, our culture, our identity, our knowledge, our spirit, our masculinity. Forn Siðr is what makes us men and our own man, taking our own decisions, and taking our own responsibilities. Forn Siðr is a warrior belief system that embraces the fundamental evolutionary traits of males.

We do not pray to the Norse Æsir, Ásynjur, Vanir, Jötnar, Aðrir, Kindir, or Kynja (Old Norse terms do not translate to "gods"), nor do we expect them to tell us what to do or how to behave. They are our ancestors, they are ideals we strive to achieve, they are ourselves, they are us.

A fundamental aspect of Forn Siðr is that it has no dogma. No centralized structure, organization, or power. No one to tell you what to think or believe, how to behave, or how to live your life. As a result, we provide very limited guidance. Instead, we give you actual knowledge, so you can be a wolf among all the Abrahamic (including Asatru and Vanatru) sheep.

They claim it's about "men and masculinity"; they claim it makes you "a wolf among other religions" and explicitly places them in opposition to the Asatru/Vanatru faiths.
 
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treb

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This, taken from something claiming to be the **official** site representing the faith is not promising:



They claim it's about "men and masculinity"; they claim it makes you "a wolf among other religions" and explicitly places them in opposition to the Asatru/Vanatru faiths.

That's strange looking up the exact same term in google brings up an entirely different organization officially recognized by Denmark as a religion
https://www.fornsidr.dk/
 
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schwarherz

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This, taken from something claiming to be the **official** site representing the faith is not promising:



They claim it's about "men and masculinity"; they claim it makes you "a wolf among other religions" and explicitly places them in opposition to the Asatru/Vanatru faiths.
Had to look up your quote to find the site. Looks like some racist idiot in Norway bought the domain and parked garbage on it, calling it official. The actual site for the actual group is at a .dk domain and is in Danish.


EDIT:
That's strange looking up the exact same term in google brings up an entirely different organization officially recognized by Denmark as a religion
https://www.fornsidr.dk/
Again, this.
 

wilcoxchar

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This is the best dev diary yet! I'm extremely excited for CK3 now.
 

IndigoRage

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Well, the assassins were not all ismailis from birth, weren't a lot of them converted from another current ?
Couldn't that simply be represented by a character becoming Isma'ili?

here are no extant records of what the Norse or Germanic peoples called there religion. As far as ck3 goes Norse paganism will have to to have a neologism.
I just don't understand what was wrong with calling it "Norse" to begin with. No slap-fighting about modern neo-pagan groups, and with 99 faiths, it's possible the continental Germanics have their own slightly distinct faith as well.