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Dev Diary #119 - Tours and Travel

Dev Diary #119 – Tours and Travel


Hello! My name is Chad and this is my premiere here on the forums. We’re really excited to kick off a series of dev diaries showing off all the work we have put into Tours and Tournaments. To briefly reiterate a bit of what was covered in @rageair ’s last dev diary, the Tours & Tournaments Expansion will provide a comprehensive rework of the Activity system. Not only have we reworked Feasts, Hunts, and Pilgrimages, but we have added brand spanking new Grand Activities: Tours (also in this dev diary), Tournaments, and Grand Weddings! Along with this rework comes the new Travel System (which I’ll be talking about in more detail today) and the long-awaited Regencies feature–both free additions. You can expect to hear more about all these additions in subsequent dev diaries!

Please note the standard disclaimer that all images are of things currently in development and are subject to change before release.

Travel​


As we said in last week’s dev diary, we want to reinforce the connection between the character and the map. And what’s the best way to do that? Travel.

Every character in the game now has a bonafide Location. With the new Travel Mechanic in place, every character travels to activities that aren’t held in their current location (including the AI). Whenever you plan a Grand Tournament or accept an invitation to your vassal’s Feast, you now also have decisions to make about how you get there. Will you be daring and choose a dangerous route or play it safe? Who will you hire as your Caravan Master to ensure the journey goes smoothly?

The Basics: Speed, Safety, Danger​

Every Travel Plan has two basic stats: Speed and Safety. Speed is represented by a percentage, where 100% is standard (roughly similar to army movement speed). To no one’s surprise, this affects how fast a character moves from province to province. Safety is a value ranging from 1 to 100 and counteracts Danger.

You can expect to encounter a dazzling array of situations as you travel across the map. Perhaps you will encounter a hermit living among the wilderness…

Travel_1_Event_Hermit.png

[Image: Event where you encounter a hermit]

Or perhaps you’ll meet someone from a different culture who can speak your native tongue…
Travel_2_Event_Culture.png

[Image: Event where you encounter someone from faraway who can speak your native language]

Or maybe you will even chance upon a knight-errant and convince them to join your entourage?
Travel_3_Event_Knight_Errant.png

[Image: Event where you encounter a knight-errant]

Danger lurks in every corner of the map. Every province has a Danger score based on a variety of factors like terrain, county control, owner, et cetera. Traveling through the mountains might expose you to treacherous cliffs, while sailing the seas presents its own, unique hazards, for example.

Travel_4_Event_Danger_Mountains.png

[Image: Event where one of your entourage members falls from a cliff in mountainous terrain]

Travel_5_Event_Danger_Sea.png

[Image: Event where you encounter a squall destroys your sails while traveling at sea]

There are also several dynamic factors that affect how dangerous provinces are. For example, Holdings decrease Danger while any army activity (sieges, battle, raiding) greatly increase danger. While there is always a possibility of encountering Danger, a well-prepared traveler who invests in their Safety will encounter dangerous events far less frequently.

So how do I prepare to set out on the open road? Glad you asked, let’s take a look at the brand new Travel Planner.

Travel_6_Planner.png

[Image: Example of planning to travel for a Pilgrimage]

Caravan Master​

Along with the Travel System, we introduce the Caravan Master as a new Court Position. The Caravan Master is the face of your journey and handles all the banal, practical aspects to traveling. Hiring a skilled character will increase both your Speed and Safety while providing some passive bonuses to Army Movement Speed, Supply Limit, and Court Grandeur.

Travel_7_Caravan_Master.png

[Image: Selection window for choosing a Caravan Master court position]

Travel Options​

Every time you set out on a journey, you have the chance to pick 2 Travel Options. These additional features provide a range of possible bonuses when added to your travel.

Travel_8_Options.png

[Image: Selection screen for choosing Travel Options]

Most Travel Options have an associated cost for the benefits they provide. Hiring Experienced Sea Captains will add a salty sea dog to your Entourage, thus making your journey across open water safer. Some are unlocked by Buildings in your domain or your character’s Traits. To illustrate, if you have built Stables or Camelries up to level 4 or higher, you can unlock the Superior Mounts Travel Option and get a nice boost to Speed. It costs nothing, of course, since you own the Stables already.

Travel_9_Options_Mounts.png

[Image: Superior Mounts Travel Option]

Another example is the Train Knights Travel Option, which is unlocked by having Military Academies built in your domain. When selected, 3 of your least-skilled Knights are added to your Entourage. It increases your Safety and there is a chance for each Knight to increase their skills along the journey.

Travel_10_Options_Train_Knights.png

[Image: Train Knights Travel Option]

While it’s not required to select Travel Options (especially for short journeys), they can prove quite useful when setting out on a longer journey, such as a Pilgrimage. This is also a way to affect which characters join your Entourage, the group of characters who travel at your side. Some characters, such as your Court Physician and Bodyguard, will automatically join your Entourage if you employ those Court Positions. Otherwise, your Entourage is primarily composed of characters relevant to the Activity to which you are traveling. Your Knights will join you for Tournaments, for example.

Custom Route Editor​

When planning a journey, you will always be presented with the shortest path towards your destination. But perhaps you really don’t want to travel through your Rival’s lands or maybe you’ve always wanted to see the splendor of Rome? Well fear not, for we have included a Custom Route Editor!

Travel_11_Custom_Route_Editor.png

[Image: Example of adding waypoints to a journey via the Custom Route Editor]

We allow you to customize your route by adding waypoints along your path. If employed cunningly, you may be able to avoid assassins hired by your Nemesis or gaze up at Caesar’s Needle from the hallowed streets of Rome.

Additional Notes​

Since Travel inevitably touches nearly every aspect of the game, I figured I’d spend some time here at the end attempting to answer a few questions that are sure to arise.

The focus for this expansion has been to create a Travel System that will specifically work for getting characters to and from Activities. With that said, we’ve endeavored to make this system as flexible as possible for future work and iterations–which is why it’s a free feature. The Travel Mechanic has also been integrated into smaller activities such as Meet Peers, Grand Blot, and Grand Rite. We are currently working on integrating the mechanic into more game systems.

Some Schemes are still completable while you or your Target is traveling. For example, you can still sway a character or attempt to learn their language while either of you are traveling. You cannot, however, attempt to seduce someone who is not in your location. (The power of letters only goes so far…) These Schemes will be frozen until both characters are no longer traveling.

I know you’re all eager for things like trade routes–so are we! That won’t be coming in this expansion, but it is something we have our eye on for the future.

Tours​

Hello hello hello, I am Meka66 and it has been a while since I was last able to write a dev diary, way back in my Hearts of Iron days. Today I'm here to talk to you about Grand Tours!

What is a tour? Well, more broadly a Grand Tour is your opportunity to use the travel system to hold royal visits across your realm; bringing you closer to your direct vassals and giving you the opportunity to get closer to sub-realms usually in your periphery, yielding powerful rewards to help you manage your unruly subjects; both noble and lowborn.
placeholder-art.png

The art in this screen is placeholder until we get our more complete gorgeous art.

Primarily, you will be visiting vassals, choosing from one of three things to do on your visit: Tour the Grounds, Attend a Dinner, or Attend a Cultural Festival. Each of these will yield different rewards both for the realm you're visiting and for yourself personally. Let's start with Tour the Grounds.
route-planning.png

Here you can plan your route around your kingdom

Stops​

Tour the Grounds​

tour-arrival.png

Arrival at a Tour of the Grounds, the layout of this window is still being worked on.

When Touring the Grounds of your vassal's holding, you're having a look around at daily life in your vassal's capital; visiting the village, hanging around their holding, and exploring their hunting grounds. Overall this results in a boost in Control in counties within your vassal's realm, since it is difficult to ignore the authority of the King when he's right on your doorstep.
vassal-control.png

One of many opportunities to raise control in your vassal's holdings

You'll also have opportunities to boost your prestige and renown, by flexing your hunting skills on your dear vassals.
hunting-skills.png

An opportunity here to show off your hunting skills

Hosted Dinner​

dinner-arrival.png

Arriving at a dinner

Next up we have the Hosted Dinner. The dinner is much like a feast, but far more intimate. The dinner will give you opportunities to not only share some time with your vassal and form friendships and gain hooks, but it is also an opportunity to interfere with their court; offering their courtiers a better life in the capital, becoming the guardian for your vassal's heir, and discovering secrets at your vassal's court.
hook-opportunity.png

One of many opportunities you have to make friends, learn secrets, and gain hooks.

Cultural Festival​

culture-festival.png

Arriving at a Cultural Festival in Sweden. A true oxymoron if ever there was one.

Lastly we have my personal favorite, the Cultural Festival. A realm is typically made up of all sorts of people belonging to different faiths and cultures, and what better way to demonstrate the magnanimousness of your rule than to experience the strange traditions of your subjects? If you're a highly diverse realm like Khazaria or a stranger in a strange land like a Norman invader, this is an excellent opportunity to get some powerful bonuses to cultural acceptance.
cultural-acceptance.png

Spreading cultural acceptance around your realm by showing your subjects you embrace their traditions. Here we have the Emperor visiting a Bulgarian nativity play.

But no culture is a monolith of course, and Cultural Festivals can still yield powerful rewards even if you're visiting a county of your own culture. Showing your respect for the customs of folks outside of the capital will result in potent popular opinion gains, allowing you to bring your unruly subjects in line.
culture-festival-rewards.png

Same-culture festivals still yield powerful rewards.

The Tour Planner​

Your tour consists of several stops across your realm, with one of the above activities taking place at each location. Here we have our beloved Byzantine Emperor planning a tour of his realm; having dinners with his powerful vassals, touring the grounds of his distant subjects, and observing the local culture of his Armenian and Bulgarian subjects.
byzantine-route.png

A roundabout route of the Byzantine Empire

A Travelling Court​

But visiting nobles isn't the only thing you're doing on your tour, of course. You are traveling with your court! On your journey, you'll get a chance to meet with your lowliest of subjects, and what you do with them exactly is up to you! You may encounter drunkards muttering of rebellion in a tavern, or be accosted by highwaymen on the road. While most travel events are just about things that happen on your journey, a tour travel event is an opportunity to remind the commoners that their liege is ever present.

To this effect, we have several Intents. Intents in Tours determine what exactly it is you hope to do with commoners while on the road; do you want to show charity, assert your authority, or just drink and visit brothels on your merry way across your realm?
intent-selection.png

Here we have the intent selection screen, which can be changed at any time before or during your tour!

We'll start with the more stone-faced intents: Altruism and Justice.

The Altruism intent is inspired much by the concept of both charity and the Royal Touch; the belief that Kings had the power to heal the sick just with their touch. On an Altruistic route across your realm, you will show your piousness and generosity to your realm; giving piety, popular opinion, and stress loss with the right traits (compassionate, zealous, etc).
altruistic-opportunity.png

An altruistic opportunity to show you are not disgusted by your subjects… or not

Justice is your chance to remind commoners that the crown is ever-present, and you can show justice, whatever it may mean to you. This can include judging local trials, meeting with peasant leaders, and sending in your men to clear out bandits. Justice results in stress loss for the appropriate traits, and some chances to fill your dungeon and increase control along your route.
crowns-justice.png

A chance to bring the Crown's justice to the countryside

Lustful characters can also benefit from the Lechery intent, giving them the opportunity to seek out new paramours on the road and pay visits to local brothels to reduce their stress and find new lovers. If you're a player who enjoys lustful content, this intent is for you; otherwise, the lechery intent is entirely opt-in. What you want to get out of your tour is up to you!
violet-woods.png

This intent can be particularly useful if your spouse is unable to give you an heir

Lastly we have the Relax intent, which is the default. In this intent, you just want to use your time on the road to visit taverns and take it easy on your tour, giving you large gains in stress reduction.
sin-den.png

There are all manner of ways to reduce stress on your Tour.

Tour Type​

But there is more! What primarily motivates your tour is determined by your Tour Type, of which we have three: Majesty, Taxation, and Intimidation. These options will determine what exactly it is you demand from your vassals when you stop by for a visit, is it just to show how much of a great ruler you are? Or is it to extract taxes? To strike fear into your unruly subjects?

A Majesty Tour is all about vassal opinion and prestige. During your visits, you will show your grace and magnificence to all.
majesty.png


A Taxation Tour is all about finding those little loopholes and oversights your vassals have been taking advantage of and tying them up, and taking what is rightfully yours. You may cause some upset, but it's all worth it to fill the treasury, right?
taxation.png


Intimidation Tours are all about showing how much your vassals should fear you. You'll get chances to do all manner of things to unsettle your subject. Direct confrontation can be a powerful tool, and can even motivate some vassals to leave their hostile factions against you.
intimidation.png


Which Tour type are you most interested in trying first? We would love to hear your thoughts!

Each time you perform an action which corresponds with your selected tour type, it will increase this tour success bar here. The rewards you get at the end of your tour will scale and change depending on just how successful you've been in achieving your goals, and if done right, it can be a powerful tool for strengthening and stabilizing your realm.
majesty-success.png

Here we have the Majesty success bar

Tours are a big investment in both time and money, but they also yield powerful and long lasting rewards; everything from cultural acceptance to control to dread to prestige, a tour is an all-encompassing realm management tool, taking your court on the road and bringing the presence of the crown wherever it is needed.

That's all for now, we'll be around to answer questions as always. See you next week where we'll talk about some of the smaller-but-broader systemic changes we've made to vassals, buildings, men-at-arms, and more!
 
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I think someone mentioned that some options would have a net negative. But that would probably based on your character's stats and personality. (Some options are "duels")

If we're afraid of this Free Update and DLC making the game too easy, (in addition to choosing difficult game rules) we could lean towards roleplaying and away from mechanically optimal play.
 
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I think it's much healthier for all of us in the forums to petition the modders your vision for how the travel system should work. If we are this heated, the devs will quite rightfully start ignoring us.

Feel free to disagree with me on this one.
  1. You can’t play mods without achievements, so either function is lost. So no, mods are not an option for everyone. Also modders are not magicians. They work in their free time to make something for free. This is presented as a mechanic from the devs. To say “Eh, just let the free workers make the dlc better” is absolute toxic nonsense.
  2. They ask €30 for this dlc. Even if you include the free patch in that price, we can at least expect the mechanics to build upon each other, and be intertwined with existing content in an engaging and challenging way.
  3. Holding Court is already lackluster, having yet another “you can use this content, or not idc” type of event machine is not desirable. This will only clutter the game, instead of making it more intricate and creative (and I think tours and especially travel are amazing ideas and concepts by the hard-working devs, I just wish they own their content. They are being very tame with it, almost as if they know we won’t use it anyways)
 
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Someone pitched a very good “Neglect” mechanic a few pages back (quoting is a little difficult on mobile, can anyone point it out, please?). That would be perfect for simulating all kinds of vassal and realm neglect.
Neglect is a a negative opinion modifier that builds up over time, the rate of increase proportional to distance from the liege's capital. If it builds up enough, combined with other opinion modifiers, a vassal is likely to be in an independence or dissolution faction. Also reduces tax and levies, because a vassal can get away with it if the liege can't be bothered to check on things.

Tours can reset it, although that can be modified by the interaction with the vassal, making things better or worse.

This gives an incentive to do a tour, but doesn't make it a necessity. A popular ruler can get away without them, also use things like Sway, Gifts, etc. Bit awkward when that ruler dies, and the heir finds a whole lot of trouble brewing because of the previous ruler's neglect.
Here ^
 
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Sound like a fun new DLC - a couple of questions though.
- Will there be any negative consequences in the capital depending on the lenght of your tour, so we dont get a Richard the Lionheart-effect, where our evil brother takes the throne in our absense?
- What if war suddenly breaks out in the middle of our tour, can we then rush back to the capital and end the tour before time (would seem logical that way) and can we at least change the planned tour, so if something bad occurs, we can alter the route or the reason for visiting a certain province?
From the previous Dev Diary:

"As some of you managed to cleverly figure out, there’s also a brand-new regency system where we’ve made sure that it’s both interesting to have and to be a regent. Loyal regents help you by dutifully fulfilling their Mandates, and being the regent of your liege gives you opportunities to (with varying degrees of bloodshed) seize the throne for yourself, should you be doing a “good” job. [emphasis added]"

So while they don't mention the length of the tour directly playing a part, it looks like if you become more popular in your liege's absence it is possible for you to launch a coup. I'm not sure who the loyalists will rally behind if your liege (or you - if you are the ruler) is away. I would hope that you can cancel your tour and return home but that sounds pretty dangerous too since I imagine the enemy will be looking to capture you to quickly end the war. It also just occurred to me that I will no longer be able to spawn an army and immediately elect my ruler as commander when the castle they are in is in danger of falling. I'll either have to take flight (with my spouse and children as part of the entourage?) or hope my army can arrive in time to life the siege.
 
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For each vassal, the game will track a measure of tax enforcement, which determines how much of that vassal's tax obligation they actually pay. Vassals with high enforcement levels pay their full share (perhaps even a little extra, similar to the Absolute Control mechanic). Vassals with low enforcement pay less. As enforcement gets very low, vassals pay next to nothing.

One way to raise tax enforcement (there could certainly be others - but they're not relevant here) would be to visit the vassal on your tour. Doing so would restore them to a high enforcement level, and perhaps even recoup some amount of the previously missed taxes. Thus, rarely visited vassals would slowly become nearly worthless, while frequently visited vassals would be more lucrative.
Vassals have different traits, different religions and cultures, different opinions towards their liege. Greedy and generous, honest and deceitful, any other traits affecting ai effects like honor and greed, good and bad relationships (including friendships and rivalries) should be taken into account, otherwise that enforcement is just the second adultery.
 
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Right now, it is proposed that the only encouragement is: “iT’S fUn tO dO, sO tHaT’s WhY yOu Do It”
I mean, yeah? It’s a video game it’s supposed to be fun, and compulsion in a sandbox game can quickly become annoying and tedious.

The neglect concept is less annoying because it can be solved different ways, but it also feels like adding a watch you have to remember to rewind every once and awhile.
 
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Right now, it is proposed that the only encouragement is: “iT’S fUn tO dO, sO tHaT’s WhY yOu Do It”
Well, no. This is just wrong. There's at least a few encouragements to use the mechanic even if there aren't any specific modifiers that create downsides to not using it.

1) Yes, it being a fun mechanic to use is part of the encouragement. Because this is a game and like in any game, you do things in the game because they're fun.
2) The roleplaying aspect. Because the Crusader Kings franchise has always been a roleplaying and storytelling game, and part of any roleplaying game is the player putting in some effort of engaging with their own imagination to do certain things in the game and not others.
3) The opportunity cost of not using the mechanic. Just as with anything that gives benefits, you take an inherent cost by not taking the benefit. At the same time, the chance of bad things happening on the tours creates a risk/reward system within the mechanic itself without having to impost an extra penalty for not using the mechanic.
 
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Well, no. This is just wrong. There's at least a few encouragements to use the mechanic even if there aren't any specific modifiers that create downsides to not using it.

1) Yes, it being a fun mechanic to use is part of the encouragement. Because this is a game and like in any game, you do things in the game because they're fun.
2) The roleplaying aspect. Because the Crusader Kings franchise has always been a roleplaying and storytelling game, and part of any roleplaying game is the player putting in some effort of engaging with their own imagination to do certain things in the game and not others.
3) The opportunity cost of not using the mechanic. Just as with anything that gives benefits, you take an inherent cost by not taking the benefit. At the same time, the chance of bad things happening on the tours creates a risk/reward system within the mechanic itself without having to impost an extra penalty for not using the mechanic.

Im afraid of how this will be balanced. it being "fun" is not enough incentive imo. The suggestion of neglect & other maluses for huge empires need to be implemented.
They talked about vassal management so hopefully there is something there or i fear for this dlc. (i honestly think this looks really cool)

And the touring system could be a great way to offset those. Having humongus empires atm is too easy & boring. Just as traits can be roleplayed, but most people dont.

the last one is the most dangerous or hard to do i believe. royal court as someone said created problems and if you dont interact with it you dont have any problems. so you dont use it. This might be the case here for tours & tourneys. if im correct pilgrimages/hunts etc will use this system so that is good. but rewards must be rebalanced as well. The rewards whether it be fun or buffs or resources needs to be really good to bother going on tours, Byz paid 2300 gold for one, if im going to pay 2300 gold to let my regent plot to overthrow me i better get something insane out of it or i just wont bother. Not doing it might be more beneficial for your realm stability if there are no "neglect" maluses.

Can you declare wars while on tour? you certainly cant lead them. Looks to be a feudal duke/vassal gameplay improvement to me. Would've been a great mid/lategame improvement if there are changes to how easy it is to maintain empires/big realms with tours being able to offer bonuses to stability.

Perhaps strong vassals should get the neglect bonus amplified for ways to show the strong vassals they are important to the realm/crown despite not being on the counsel.
 
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I mean, yeah? It’s a video game it’s supposed to be fun, and compulsion in a sandbox game can quickly become annoying and tedious.

The neglect concept is less annoying because it can be solved different ways, but it also feels like adding a watch you have to remember to rewind every once and awhile.
I have said it before, but I’ll repeat it one more time: Fun for fun’s sake is not fun. If something is fun to use, AND you have to think about when to use it among other options, and it’s because you used it as the right option to solve a problem, then it stays fun in repetition.

I don’t understand your reasoning at all. Those kind of ‘watches’ are present throughout the game. Truces, age, lifestyle, opinion, control, decisions, dynasty traits, culture shifting, council tasks, etc.

Even if you leave tours as is, the watch ticks for when you can tour again. The opinion/control gain/whatever modifier also has ‘watches’ telling you how long they last.

Watching watches is the whole game… What’s your point?

I am repeating myself at this point. I get the feeling a portion of this playerbase just wants an easy game without any grand strategy elements. A consequence of attracting a broader audience, I suppose.

I wish everyone enjoyment playing this game, and content should be for everyone. Though why the game should be simplified for it, and not just have an “easy mode” for those who want a more chill game, is something I do not understand. It still is a ‘grand strategy game’ (a bit of an arrogant term anyways). There is a way to cater to both camps, but then we circle back to creating more game rules compatible with Ironman.
 
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Having participated in this discussion across a couple of threads, I think the concern with tours is as below.

This is a genuine, good-faith attempt to understand the argument - so, if it's not correct, I'm happy to fix.


1. A new optional feature will either be net advantageous to use or net disadvantageous to use - either generally or in specific situations.​
2. If the optional feature is advantageous, it will be farmed by players to increase their power.​
3. All things being equal, a new, advantageous optional mechanic will therefore result in players acquiring more power, making the game easier.​
4. This reduction in game difficulty can be countered either by (a) making the game more difficult in other areas (resulting in no net decrease in game difficulty) or (b) a specific counter mechanic that causes the player problems unless they use the optional advantageous feature to offset it (i.e it "soaks up" the additional power gained from the new mechanic).​
5. If the optional feature is disadvantageous, it will either (a) not be used by the player or (b) requires the game to incentivise or force it's use.​
So, applying the above to tours specifically, I think the concern is that:


1. Tours are set up to exchange upfront gold for a higher amount of gold, stress reduction or vassal opinion buffs and so will either be net advantageous to use (if they provide a better return on gold investment in gold/stress reduction/vassal opinion than using existing mechanics) or net disadvantageous to use (if they provide a worse return on gold investment in gold/stress reduction/vassal opinion than using existing mechanics) - either generally or in specific situations.​
2. If they provide a better return on gold investment in gold/stress reduction/vassal opinion than using existing mechanics they'll be used/farmed.​
3. All things being equal, this will mean player characters acquiring more gold, having less stress and having happier vassals than prior to tours being added to the game - making the game easier.​
4. This reduction of game difficulty seems unlikely to be countered by (a) making the game more difficult in other areas (as that would either make the game harder for non-DLC owners or would require Paradox to maintain two different underlying balances (one for those who own the DLC and one for those who don't) and they won't be countered by (b) a specific counter mechanic as devs have stated that the use of tours in optional, implying that no such counter mechanic exists.​
5. If the tours are disadvantageous, they will either (a) not be used by players unless (b) incentivised or forced to - and, since devs have stated that tours are optional, we can assume there's no incentive or "forcing" mechanic.​
Hopefully the above is a decent, honest approximation of the concerns. Certainly none of it is a ridiculous argument. However, I think there are few underconsidered things that could paint a rosier picture:

  • Non-quantifiable aspect of tours compared to other mechanics could interfere with (1): Since tours appear to come with risks (of kidnapping, of death on the road, of leaving a regent in charge etc.), it may not be so straightforward to quantify whether tours are a more advantageous or less advantageous way of aquiring gold/stress reduction/vassal opinion boosts than other mechanics. i.e. while it's easy to compare a mechanic that costs x gold for y stress reduction vs one that costs x gold for 10y stress reduction - it's less straightforward to compare a mechanic that costs x gold and a 5% chance of death for y stress reduction vs one that costs 10x gold and a 0% chance of death for y stress reduction. The risk introduces player choice without necessarily making the game easier. Of course, whether it does make the game easier or not would be down to balancing those values - but, in principle, it's certainly possible and wouldn't require two different balances for DLC owners vs non-DLC owners.

  • Paradox's willingness to balance across DLC owners vs non-DLC owners and the ease of doing so (4a) may be higher than assumed: There may be relatively straightforward DLC-owner-specific balance adjustments that are relatively self-contained and offset the extra gold/stress relief/vassal happiness gained from the use of tours. Some examples could be adjustments to hunt and feast cooldowns, flat vassal opinion modifiers, changes to the piety cost of getting money from the pope etc. This could allow tours to not result in the game becoming easier while also not making the game harder for non-DLC owners.

  • There may be new mechanics contained in the DLC that incentivise the use of tours (4b): We know that players won't be forced to use tours, but there may be mechanics in the DLC that incentivise their use, even when it's not to the advantage of the player in other areas.

  • There may be new mechanics contained in the DLC that offset the net benefits of tours (5): The DLC could contain mechanics that act as gold-sinks or cause additional stress or vassal unhappiness, offsetting the additional gold, stress reduction or vassal happiness delivered by tours.

  • The patch could contain long-asked-for additonal difficulty settings and game rules: CK3's difficulty settings - and the ease of the game itself - have always been a bit weird and it's a regular ask on the forums for that to be addressed. Devs have mentioned in the past that it's something they've considered. Perhaps they'll be contained in the free patch, allowing players to offset any tour-driven changes to default game difficulty to match their own preferences.

I'm certainly not saying the above will happen. It's absolutely possible that tours make the game easier - and that'd be really disappointing, as I'd like to see the opposite happen.

This is just my view on why, given how much we know about the DLC and patch right now, I certainly don't believe that "Tours [are] already confirmed to be meaningless" or a nailed-on disaster for game balance.

(crossposted from the "Tours already confirmed to be meaningless" thread because I think it's relevant to both).
 
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The Devs may have something up their sleeves. They may use regents if you travel too much. (or if you appoint the wrong regent)

Perhaps they would indirectly punish the player for not travelling by the way of FOMO or having the AI (depending on personality) take advantage of the feature. (Suddenly the AI ruler has a modifier you never seen before which may or may not throw a wrench on your plans with them)

ETA: On the topic of tours having a net positive in the long run, they could still make it more of a gamble. (Yes, it's net positive but you will be penalized this one time due to RNG)
 
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Having participated in this discussion across a couple of threads, I think the concern with tours is as below.

This is a genuine, good-faith attempt to understand the argument - so, if it's not correct, I'm happy to fix.


<snip>​
I think this is a really good summary of the concerns that some of us "mechanical friction" folks have, but I would add one area that I think you kinda touch on but is probably the main source of my concern, and I'll use Royal Court a bit as an example because that's where some of this concern comes from.

Royal Court introduced a new mechanic, holding court. (some may disagree with it being a "mechanic" and more of a new kind of window for events, but I'm not going to make that argument here). With that mechanic, every few years you have the opportunity to hold court and get some events related to it.

But the thing is, there's no real compelling reason to hold court. You might get some positive events, some negative events, but in my experience I'm never compelled to do it; if anything, I usually do it to make the notification go away, and even then only if I have a few hundred gold in the bank in case I get one of the treasury-draining events like the hole in the floor. So, for the most part, I ignore it because the mechanic isn't meaningfully connected to the other mechanics of the game. And there's also the fact that the court events never really seem to affect much; you might get some small modifiers, you might lose some money, you might settle an argument between courtiers, but the interactions to me have never felt impactful.

So how do you make a mechanic like that more compelling to the player, both from an RP perspective and a mechanical integration perspective? Here's a few things I would suggest:
  • The ruler should be expected to hold court fairly regularly. After all, they're a monarch and they have to deal with their subjects if they want to stay the monarch. If you've been able to hold court for several years but have refused to do it for whatever reason, it makes logical sense that your vassals wouldn't terribly appreciate having their pleas for their monarch's ear ignored for so long, and they start getting restless. If you don't hold court, maybe you start taking a prestige or diplomacy hit.
  • At least for me, I crave some form of hard choices in the game; if my treasury is pretty empty, I probably won't hold court with the way it works right now. But if my vassals are angry with me right now because I haven't listened to them in a while and holding court might appease them enough to not revolt? I might risk it, because there's a clear benefit to doing it, even if the ultimate results of holding court aren't positive (maybe I stave off the rebellion but because of the events I'm now in a bit of debt, a new issue to deal with but it's at least making me make that trade off, instead of just losing money for pushing a button).
  • And on that note, other than losing money there isn't really much substantial negative or positive stuff that can happen when holding court; like I said, typically worst case scenario I lose some gold or prestige, or make a courtier happy/mad, or something, but it doesn't feel memorable or substantial. One event currently in that I like is the vassals or faction members approaching you and effectively trying to negotiate with you, that's neat, and that's the kind of event I like; one tied to other parts of the game. Imagine if you could be assassinated at court if you've got an active scheme against you; maybe you die, maybe your bodyguard dies, maybe your food taster dies, maybe your wife dies, maybe no one dies, but it would at least be something memorable. Imagine holding court while you're with an army, and your wife or chancellor hears the petitions and might choose differently from how your character would. I feel like if some of the consequences of court events were magnified, the mechanic would work much better because it would feel impactful.
That last word, impactful, is I think my biggest point of concern with RC, as it is with TT; from an old grizzled player's perspective (the OG Crusader Kings was my first PDX game, I adore this series despite my grumpiness), it feels like the design decisions that are being made lead to the telling of stories, but they're reluctant to let those stories have a significant impact on the character, the campaign, or the player, for fear of making the game too complicated or too difficult. And that leads to people like me being concerned that the game is getting "dumbed down", for lack of a better word; when I played CK2, there were some mechanics and events that could completely throw a curveball at your campaign; half your family dying from the plague and leaving a sickly 5 year old on the throne of a half-dead kingdom, the Aztecs invading (yeah I know that's controversial but I'll be a Sunset Invasion defender till I die), your treacherous chancellor pocketing the money you've been spending to try to get a claim. I found all of that fun because of the challenge, whereas in CK3 I feel more often to not I have to go out of my way to make dumb decisions (sometimes I can RP it, but sometimes I can't) to keep the game challenging, and it gets harder and harder to do each campaign.

So that's the mindset I'm in when I look at this DD; I see them adding something similar to RC; even though the mechanic itself is technically connected to other parts (I love the danger system and transitioning the different activities to this), the purpose of the mechanic itself doesn't seem to have much bite. If there's nothing mechanically encouraging you to use it besides "this can help bolster my treasury or increase my vassal opinions" with no real downside to not doing it, I start feeling like it's Royal Court II: Electric Boogaloo. I guess I feel like both holding court and traveling are great, essential mechanics, but the way they're implemented (or appear to be implemented) makes them feel both disconnected from the rest of the game and with the rest of the gameplay loop.

Tl;dr: I've had too many carrots and I'd appreciate some sticks.
 
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A couple of questions:
1) If I am a King, and my powerful duke both decide to tour our respective realms simultaneously, how does the game handle that the Duke may not be at home when I, the King, come for my visit? (Roles could be reversed)

2) For the cultural event choice, what determines the impact? The culture of the vassel, or the culture of the county/duchy; assuming they are not the same. For example, If, on a Verangian adventure, I conqure the Duchy of Granada, and then expand and form the Kingdom of Norse Granada. I go on a tour and choose the Cultural path, my vassal is, like I, Norse, but his County is culturally Andalusian. Do I get the popularity bonus because my vassel is the same culture as me, or do I get the cultural acceptance bonus because the county is Andelusian while I am Norse?
 
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The Devs may have something up their sleeves. They may use regents if you travel too much. (or if you appoint the wrong regent)
ETA: On the topic of tours having a net positive in the long run, they could still make it more of a gamble. (Yes, it's net positive but you will be penalized this one time due to RNG)
Without something to push the player to go on tour, such methods wouldn't work as a counterbalance; on the contrary, they may cause players not to use this mechanic. Let's say there would be some mechanic that would make a territory unstable if the ruler wouldn't go on tour, and the vassals that the ruler ignored would try to become independent. In that case, at some point the player would be in a situation where they have to go on tour and risk, for example, the regent taking power or some accident happening during the tour, but that risk would be necessary to keep the realm from falling apart. If there is no penalty for not using the tour but there would be a risk in using it, we would be in the same situation as with the Royal Court. The players would have a choice: if they go on tour, they might get something they doesn't really need (bonuses that make the game easier, but the game is perfectly playable and easy enough without them) but they will risk the regent taking power or some negative RNG mechanic; if they don't go on tour there won't be any negative consequences and there are other mechanics that can be used to manage the realm pretty easily, so why not stick with them. Ergo, the tour will be meaningless and there will be no reason to use it just like there is no reason to hold court now.

I'll try to explain why I think a lot of players are so critical of tours and would like a more comprehensive implementation. In theory, there's nothing wrong with having some mechanics just for casual players that nothing forces us to use (or buy DLC for). Such mechanics are already in the game, like hunting, feast, etc. The problem is that tour is inherently such a great mechanic that could be crucial for interacting with vassals, it could completely change domain management and take gameplay to a new level. But it looks like it's just going to be another fancy event generator. So it's just another disappointment in the row and strong déjà vu from the Royal Court.
 
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I think this is a really good summary of the concerns that some of us "mechanical friction" folks have, but I would add one area that I think you kinda touch on but is probably the main source of my concern, and I'll use Royal Court a bit as an example because that's where some of this concern comes from.

Royal Court introduced a new mechanic, holding court. (some may disagree with it being a "mechanic" and more of a new kind of window for events, but I'm not going to make that argument here). With that mechanic, every few years you have the opportunity to hold court and get some events related to it.

But the thing is, there's no real compelling reason to hold court. You might get some positive events, some negative events, but in my experience I'm never compelled to do it; if anything, I usually do it to make the notification go away, and even then only if I have a few hundred gold in the bank in case I get one of the treasury-draining events like the hole in the floor. So, for the most part, I ignore it because the mechanic isn't meaningfully connected to the other mechanics of the game. And there's also the fact that the court events never really seem to affect much; you might get some small modifiers, you might lose some money, you might settle an argument between courtiers, but the interactions to me have never felt impactful.

So how do you make a mechanic like that more compelling to the player, both from an RP perspective and a mechanical integration perspective? Here's a few things I would suggest:
  • The ruler should be expected to hold court fairly regularly. After all, they're a monarch and they have to deal with their subjects if they want to stay the monarch. If you've been able to hold court for several years but have refused to do it for whatever reason, it makes logical sense that your vassals wouldn't terribly appreciate having their pleas for their monarch's ear ignored for so long, and they start getting restless. If you don't hold court, maybe you start taking a prestige or diplomacy hit.
  • At least for me, I crave some form of hard choices in the game; if my treasury is pretty empty, I probably won't hold court with the way it works right now. But if my vassals are angry with me right now because I haven't listened to them in a while and holding court might appease them enough to not revolt? I might risk it, because there's a clear benefit to doing it, even if the ultimate results of holding court aren't positive (maybe I stave off the rebellion but because of the events I'm now in a bit of debt, a new issue to deal with but it's at least making me make that trade off, instead of just losing money for pushing a button).
  • And on that note, other than losing money there isn't really much substantial negative or positive stuff that can happen when holding court; like I said, typically worst case scenario I lose some gold or prestige, or make a courtier happy/mad, or something, but it doesn't feel memorable or substantial. One event currently in that I like is the vassals or faction members approaching you and effectively trying to negotiate with you, that's neat, and that's the kind of event I like; one tied to other parts of the game. Imagine if you could be assassinated at court if you've got an active scheme against you; maybe you die, maybe your bodyguard dies, maybe your food taster dies, maybe your wife dies, maybe no one dies, but it would at least be something memorable. Imagine holding court while you're with an army, and your wife or chancellor hears the petitions and might choose differently from how your character would. I feel like if some of the consequences of court events were magnified, the mechanic would work much better because it would feel impactful.
That last word, impactful, is I think my biggest point of concern with RC, as it is with TT; from an old grizzled player's perspective (the OG Crusader Kings was my first PDX game, I adore this series despite my grumpiness), it feels like the design decisions that are being made lead to the telling of stories, but they're reluctant to let those stories have a significant impact on the character, the campaign, or the player, for fear of making the game too complicated or too difficult. And that leads to people like me being concerned that the game is getting "dumbed down", for lack of a better word; when I played CK2, there were some mechanics and events that could completely throw a curveball at your campaign; half your family dying from the plague and leaving a sickly 5 year old on the throne of a half-dead kingdom, the Aztecs invading (yeah I know that's controversial but I'll be a Sunset Invasion defender till I die), your treacherous chancellor pocketing the money you've been spending to try to get a claim. I found all of that fun because of the challenge, whereas in CK3 I feel more often to not I have to go out of my way to make dumb decisions (sometimes I can RP it, but sometimes I can't) to keep the game challenging, and it gets harder and harder to do each campaign.

So that's the mindset I'm in when I look at this DD; I see them adding something similar to RC; even though the mechanic itself is technically connected to other parts (I love the danger system and transitioning the different activities to this), the purpose of the mechanic itself doesn't seem to have much bite. If there's nothing mechanically encouraging you to use it besides "this can help bolster my treasury or increase my vassal opinions" with no real downside to not doing it, I start feeling like it's Royal Court II: Electric Boogaloo. I guess I feel like both holding court and traveling are great, essential mechanics, but the way they're implemented (or appear to be implemented) makes them feel both disconnected from the rest of the game and with the rest of the gameplay loop.

Tl;dr: I've had too many carrots and I'd appreciate some sticks.
I agree 100% You’ve summed up my exact sentiment I’ve tried to portray here. I don’t understand how anyone would not want this.
 
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I agree 100% You’ve summed up my exact sentiment I’ve tried to portray here. I don’t understand how anyone would not want this.

Because what's proposed here, while well thought out and offered constructively, wouldn't actually represent improved game design or more enjoyable play. Setting timers for holding court or going on tours is a terrible idea. Not every king did these, not every player should be required to.

The idea that the game is too easy is, frankly, baffling to me for a game of this nature where you set your own objectives about what you want to accomplish, but I can sympathize with people who want a "challenge mode" of some sort that makes certain things harder for a player (but not for the AI, as that would be counter-productive). That's a stand alone issue, though, separate from providing new options to players in a DLC. As long as the new tools are relatively balanced versus existing tools, then offering those tools via a DLC increases player options and game longevity. That's what the DLCs should be focused on, in my opinion. My biggest concern with the game right now is that peacetime offers relatively little to do, and this expansion offers options to solve that problem. That's all it needs to do to enhance gameplay and make the expansion worthwhile.

Also, we really should be waiting to find out everything that's coming with the latest DLC and accompanying patch. The devs have already said they're constantly evaluating balance. It's probably better to find out what they've come up with before chasing down rabbit holes trying to fix issues that may not actually exist.
 
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If the balance is right, a feature can be necessary but not forced. How could this be achieved?
Let's say that you are perfectly able to never tour, but without touring you'll need a really good and loyal steward + probably a seneschal to get the same efficiency of administration, and you'd still miss the opportunities for hooks/prestige gain.
A diplomatically gifted, gregarious ruler would love to tour and reap the benefits easily. For a shy or paranoid ruler it could be better to rely more on officials.
And then sometimes you'd have a lazy coward king who'd just love to stick to his castle, but his steward is some buffoon who can't be fired and he'll have to insert his authority more personally. Now that is a real gameplay choice and challenge.

Whether this balance and challenge is achieved by putting some penalty on not going to tours, or by making active touring a risky but possibly superior way of administration *given the right conditions* is not probably that important.

Comparing with holding court: I think the issue with holding court is that the court events are so arbitrary that there isn't really an answer or any balance to when one should hold court. You don't contemplate whether your character is probably great at holding court, or if now is the best chance to address thing X, because it is so random. You never know who comes to address you and it is hardly related to the situation in the realm. If the expected outcome is always around +-0, holding court is rarely done.

If this calculation was somewhat more predictable, situation-and-character based with tours, not having any separate penalty to not holding them would not risk making the feature redundant. Although I'd probably like some small penalty to exist.

We can choose who to visit on tours. We also know what you are after: tax money, dread, prestige. Already these things make touring way more meaningful and less arbitrary than holding court.
 
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