Dev Diary #119 - Tours and Travel

[Tiax]

Ah, a new mechanic gated behind DLC and not in the free patch is likely to be a problem for the devs as it goes against their ‘mechanics in the free patches’ philosophy, surely?

I understand what you want, and for me it has an appeal, and at the same time I can see why the devs went a different route.

Or can you see a way to have tax enforcement work well for people who don’t buy T&T?— so that such a mechanic could be added to the base game without disadvantaging people who don’t have T&T.

I don't see how it is possible to put things that give bonuses in DLCs while putting things that create costs in the free patch without breaking the game.

 

[Flockingbird]

I don't see how it is possible to put things that give bonuses in DLCs while putting things that create costs in the free patch without breaking the game.

I agree, and I suspect that’s why the devs are balancing the new mechanics in other, as-yet unspecified ways, rather than what’s been proposed in this thread.

They’re sticking to their principles.

 

[Tiax]

I agree, and I suspect that’s why the devs are balancing the new mechanics in other, as-yet unspecified ways, rather than what’s been proposed in this thread.

They’re sticking to their principles.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sticking to their principles".

 

[Flockingbird]

I'm not sure what you mean by "sticking to their principles".

You’ve proposed a new mechanic that’s solely for T&T, while the devs have stated repeatedly that they want new mechanics to be in the free patches, so they can be built upon later.

Thus, they’re doing their balancing in other ways. Adding mechanics exclusive to one DLC would be contrary to their philosophy/principles— philosophy is the better word.

 

[Tiax]

You’ve proposed a new mechanic that’s solely for T&T, while the devs have stated repeatedly that they want new mechanics to be in the free patches, so they can be built upon later.

Thus, they’re doing their balancing in other ways. Adding mechanics exclusive to one DLC would be contrary to their philosophy/principles— philosophy is the better word.

I don't understand. You called Tours a mechanic - are they not keeping that mechanic exclusive to the DLC? Sure, the underlying travel system is in the base game, so that it can be used elsewhere. And similarly support for Struggles is in the base game, even though the only available one is in a DLC. I don't see why a tax authority system wouldn't be the same. Only actually doing anything if you're using T&T, but available for modding or future use in the base game if needed.

 

[Jayvee94]

I think it's much healthier for all of us in the forums to petition the modders your vision for how the travel system should work. If we are this heated, the devs will quite rightfully start ignoring us.

Feel free to disagree with me on this one.

 

[Flockingbird]

Tiax said:

I don't see how it is possible to put things that give bonuses in DLCs while putting things that create costs in the free patch without breaking the game.

I don't understand. You called Tours a mechanic - are they not keeping that mechanic exclusive to the DLC? Sure, the underlying travel system is in the base game, so that it can be used elsewhere. And similarly support for Struggles is in the base game, even though the only available one is in a DLC. I don't see why a tax authority system wouldn't be the same. Only actually doing anything if you're using T&T, but available for modding or future use in the base game if needed.

I believe the devs have said traveling is the new mechanic, while tours add-on to that mechanic.

A new taxation enforcement mechanic exclusive to T&T could complicate or prevent future mechanics concerning taxation. They’ve often explained that this kind of development pattern caused problems with CK2.

I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you. I expect by the time I return tomorrow, y’all will have moved on, though.

Edit: I understood you to have said you knew no way to add the taxation enforcement mechanic to the base game without disadvantaging those who only played the base game—I added in the quote I am referring to.

 

[Tiax]

I believe the devs have said traveling is the new mechanic, while tours add-on to that mechanic.

A new taxation enforcement mechanic exclusive to T&T could complicate or prevent future mechanics concerning taxation. They’ve often explained that this kind of development pattern caused problems with CK2.

I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you. I expect by the time I return tomorrow, y’all will have moved on, though.

I'm totally lost here, I'm afraid.

 

[Bisonmask]

so, this has been a problem since the court positions were introduced. theres not really a whole lot of transparency about what affects competence in the position. you have to trial and error, or google it. from a game design perspective thats pretty bad right

do you reckon a bit more clarity on this is within the scope of this dlc? just bc we got a row of poor to terrible competency guys here in this screenshot and not a whole lot of indication of what we ought to keep an eye out for to make it better. logic can only take you so far, and what makes sense to one person might not translate to someone else, so its better to be clear about this

Huh? In game just hover over "poor" and it'll tell you what stat is being looked for as well as how it's calculated

 

[tilly]

Huh? In game just hover over "poor" and it'll tell you what stat is being looked for as well as how it's calculated

yeah. theres no indication for what traits to look for or how to get it up to excellent, just a breakdown for why its poor. most positions will have the primary stat only ever bring the competence up to good or average, and if youd like to know which traits would bump it up higher, your options are get lucky or google it

again, some logic can be applied for working it out, but logic doesnt always translate 1 to 1 between people. what makes sense to one person might never occur to someone else. i find this unnecessarily obtuse, especially for newer players - i now know all the traits to look out for bc ive got something like 6000 hours in this game, god help me, but someone who just picked it up for the first time isnt going to have that luxury. this obviously runs counter to the ck3 ethos of trying to be less inscrutable to newcomers and could use some improvement i think

 

[Tiax]

yeah. theres no indication for what traits to look for or how to get it up to excellent, just a breakdown for why its poor. most positions will have the primary stat only ever bring the competence up to good or average, and if youd like to know which traits would bump it up higher, your options are get lucky or google it

again, some logic can be applied for working it out, but logic doesnt always translate 1 to 1 between people. what makes sense to one person might never occur to someone else. i find this unnecessarily obtuse, especially for newer players - i now know all the traits to look out for bc ive got something like 6000 hours in this game, god help me, but someone who just picked it up for the first time isnt going to have that luxury. this obviously runs counter to the ck3 ethos of trying to be less inscrutable to newcomers and could use some improvement i think

Exactly!

What should I look for in a good Antiquarian given this information?

Somehow I'm supposed to guess all of this:

aptitude = {
        value = 1
        add = {
            value = learning
            multiply = 2.5
            max = 60
            desc = court_position_skill_learning
        }
        if = { # Characters with a completed inspiration are very good Antiquarians
            limit = {
                has_completed_inspiration = yes
            }
            add = {
                value = 30
                desc = court_position_completed_inspiration
            }
        }
        if = { # Shy characters are likely to spend more time with the artifacts than other people
            limit = {
                has_trait = shy
            }
            add = {
                value = 10
                desc = court_position_shy_trait
            }
        }
        if = {
            limit = {
                has_trait = administrator
            }
            add = {
                value = 10
                desc = court_position_administrator_trait
            }
        }
        if = {
            limit = {
                has_variable = fund_inspiration_6508_architect_improvement
            }
            add = {
                value = 5
                desc = court_position_architect_study_experience
            }
        }
        add = court_position_aptitude_family_business_value
        add = court_position_aptitude_low_penalty_value
    }

 

[Atossa]

What concern? This is better than most proposals I saw from both forum and reddit. War dlc, government type dlc, also don't address any supposed concerns if there is any.

I feel like a lot of the mechanics really don't show how the story progresses. CK3 covers a period where at the start of the game, nation-states don't really exist in the same way they do in EU4, but CK3 directly flows into EU4. CK2 due to having more laws, and centralization influencing how much your advisors/vassals could directly impact you, made you feel as though you were centralizing your realm into more of a nation. CK3 has nothing like that. I also feel combat needs to be redone, since currently, it's a matter of stacking buffs and creating units of space marines. In fact, one of the most optimal way to play is to get rid of your levies, and just use incredibly buffed knights. Which is silly, and I'd really like that to change. Diplomacy needs upgrading, but hopefully this helps that. Religion needs to be fleshed out, particularly for Catholics and Muslims. I feel like any bit of content that is added, someone should ask, "Where's Tibet?" Development currently is nearly pointless, and in it's current incarnation leads you to putting your steward in the capital, to leave them there until the end of the game. There is a lack of feeling that you are improving your holdings. Upgrades are infrequent, and you are basically just changing the buffs you are selecting for your demense. Stackable buffs probably should be generally moved away from. There is a lack of government types in general. The technology system is currently entirely passive, and if you just put your steward in your capital, fills completely with hundreds of years left in the game.

 

[Vindahl]

Sound like a fun new DLC - a couple of questions though.
- Will there be any negative consequences in the capital depending on the lenght of your tour, so we dont get a Richard the Lionheart-effect, where our evil brother takes the throne in our absense?
- What if war suddenly breaks out in the middle of our tour, can we then rush back to the capital and end the tour before time (would seem logical that way) and can we at least change the planned tour, so if something bad occurs, we can alter the route or the reason for visiting a certain province?

 

[Zmieczemiogniem]

Wow some great content and surprising yet welcome depth to buildings , highly encouraging to see more interactions between systems. Free patching to future proof as much as possible is a great sign- appreciated too! I know this was decided very early on in the design that Barons would be unplayable, but I would raise the thought if its more viable to allow this based on the changes with Tours and Travel?

Quick Tangent
I am once again asking for your suppor consideration on a possible Buildings and Bounty, a pack designed around the administration/development/cultivation of the land which you entrusted as a lord of the realm. Could include a deeper development system that could release along this (the Bounty part). It skirts very similar in scope to the steward lifestyle events but I'd argue most of these smaller packs are expanding on a facet of the lifestyles anyway soooo I'll never give up on my dream!!

Sometimes you just wanna watch your impoverished little territory turn into an impressive track of land like OG CK1 days :/

 

[grommile]

Will there be any negative consequences in the capital depending on the lenght of your tour

That depends, in significant part, on whether you can trust your regent...

 

[Justeer]

Wow some great content and surprising yet welcome depth to buildings , highly encouraging to see more interactions between systems. Free patching to future proof as much as possible is a great sign- appreciated too! I know this was decided very early on in the design that Barons would be unplayable, but I would raise the thought if its more viable to allow this based on the changes with Tours and Travel?

Quick Tangent
I am once again asking for your suppor consideration on a possible Buildings and Bounty, a pack designed around the administration/development/cultivation of the land which you entrusted as a lord of the realm. Could include a deeper development system that could release along this (the Bounty part). It skirts very similar in scope to the steward lifestyle events but I'd argue most of these smaller packs are expanding on a facet of the lifestyles anyway soooo I'll never give up on my dream!!

Sometimes you just wanna watch your impoverished little territory turn into an impressive track of land like OG CK1 days :/

This is something I would love to see (and do) aswell! I don't want to just conquer a great domain. I want to build up my domain.

 

[Pistike]

I have not at any point in this thread claimed that we are not touching game balance surrounding realm stability and vassal opinion. Obviously when there are new mechanics or tools introduced to the game, balance has to be adjusted to accommodate and we have whole internal processes dedicated to exactly this; playing the game, running overnight AI games, etc.

All I have said is that I'm not going to force you to go on Tours. That literally just means I'm not going to make a random event that makes everyone hate you. It doesn't mean there won't be incentive to go on Tours or that we won't touch realm stability balance.

Does it mean you going to make a balance change to accommodate a DLC feature regardless if I have the DLC active or not?

 

[Cooleatack]

It is very rare that more requirements for me to keep track of is easier than less requirements, so yes, I’m pretty confident.

In general, personally constructed restrictions and obligations make the game more challenging and/or enjoyable for me.

If your brain is seriously impacted that much by having another option added for you to do, then don’t buy the damn DLC. Don’t buy any DLC for that matter, because guess what? They all add extra options for you to play with.

This argument is so moot; you don’t need to buy anything. Go play the game with mechanics that are already in. Go play on older patches without duels, struggles, and feuds. It’s all possible. There is no need to make the game more complex if you do not want to; you can just play the game you bought. Let us who do want progress have it, it doesn’t hurt you in the slightest.

 

[Cooleatack]

And you don't seem to get that nobody has given a satisfactory answer of how to do that. All people have suggested is a general make the game harder ask, which would in fact affect people who don't have the DLC, or an arbitrary and gamey "you haven't used this mechanic in a while" penalty, which is just bad design,

Someone pitched a very good “Neglect” mechanic a few pages back (quoting is a little difficult on mobile, can anyone point it out, please?). That would be perfect for simulating all kinds of vassal and realm neglect by a ruler who is focussing on warfare/external diplomacy/building only his own realm/his own studies/cucking the World/etc.

Not touring, and not holding court (e.g. Not receiving or visiting vassals) would be some of the options. Not investing/helping with quarrels/improving control/etc could be other factors. A bunch of the opinion modifiers cluttering the screen could go to Neglect, and it could heavily play into Factions, Culture/Religion, and Popular Opinion as well. You would also have multiple ways of solving (Vassal) Neglect, so touring would not be forced on you. It would be encouraged, however. Right now, it is proposed that the only encouragement is: “iT’S fUn tO dO, sO tHaT’s WhY yOu Do It”

 

[Jayvee94]

I think someone mentioned that some options would have a net negative. But that would probably based on your character's stats and personality. (Some options are "duels")

If we're afraid of this Free Update and DLC making the game too easy, (in addition to choosing difficult game rules) we could lean towards roleplaying and away from mechanically optimal play.