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Dev Diary #116 - Agrarian Research Techniques

116_EyesLeft.png

116_EyesRight.png

... Anyone watching? No? Good.

Ok, just you and me. Great, because I've only got a few wee lil morsels today and I don't want to share them with too many people. So let's all just keep this quiet and, if anyone asks, the dev diary was about how we research thirteenth century agrarian techniques in rural France. Got it? Good.

I want you to tell me what this historical character...
116_Char1.PNG

... this historical character...
116_Char2.PNG

... and this historical character all have in common.
116_Char3.PNG

Figured it out? Yes? No? Waiting for someone else to scan through every character in the game before you hazard a guess? Ok, well, to be a bit fairer, it's got something to do with this:
116_ListCensoredv2.png

The list includes all the interactions in a particular category. You would not see all of them at the same time like this.
:D This has nothing to do with Wards & Wardens.

Finally, none of them are directly connected to this chap:
116_Char4v2.PNG


Alright, that's all I've got for you today, but I expect to be going over that list again soon. And in detail. If anyone asks, remember: rural France, agriculture, thirteenth century, yada yada.

Till next time!
 
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Do you know what the defining difference was between a city and a village in medieval times? It's market rights. The right to hold market, for which you have to import something in order to sell it. Goods that weren't readily available everywhere. That included things that were sold as they came, i.e. wine, furs etc., but also many processed goods, that were crafted by expert artisans using those rare goods.

The time in which the number of market towns rapidly increased was the 11th century, which is still well into the first half of the game's time period. That is where trade in Europe started to become a thing. It also wasn't uncommon to demand from a trader, in addition to a toll, to stay a day or two and offer their goods to the local community. Cities sitting on a river (on which goods were transported) often did that.

You're right, of course, feudal castles weren't known for their trade, and many nobles didn't hold cities and therefore only collected tolls. But it was the king/emperor who gave out market rights to cities, and you can bet they got something in return for it. The medieval practice of giving out market rights to certain settlements goes back to Charlemagne, so it actually predates the earliest starting year of the game. That is also where the CK3 system currently falls short with its hard distinction between castle and city holdings. Cities like Rome, Constantinople, London etc. weren't a feudal castle, but not calling them a city would be an insult. But you can bet they all had market rights and were centers of trade.

So, while you're right that many local nobles didn't have any economic thinking (especially not in terms of GDP), they still needed cities to meet their more refined needs. Where do you think all the spices for their daily food, all the fine textiles for clothing, the colors, the artists and painters came from? Even something simple as a stone quarry with expert stone masons was of great value, as you needed them to build/upgrade castles or build big churches. Especially the clergy was in huge demand for stone, art and textiles, for fine works of gold and silver etc.

Nobles (to which I also count theocratic rulers like bishops) were well aware of how important trade was, what access to certain resources and their value meant, they knew the importance of ports for trade and directly profited from it. Not just in taxes, but also in getting what they needed. The higher you went up the ladder, the more economic the thinking became.

Venice, for example, only rose to power because it was the main trade hub between the ERE and HRE. The 4th crusade against the ERE was a direct consequence of Venice fighting for economic dominance. Extremely interesting to read how the whole thing started and went on for years.

Anyway, I had a book once that covered the life of the local clergy in medieval times. There it was described that the bishop here engaged in vivid trade to import good wine, and could become very cranky if he didn't get any. In exchange he gave fur, for which the local region was known. One time the other bishop, who provided the wine, played a prank on our local bishop. He told his envoy to keep the wine delivery outside the city and tell the bishop here that the delivery was lost. Then the historian went on to describe how the bishop jumped into a fit of rage, before the envoy - in modern terms - said "it's a prank, bro!". After that the wine was brought in and the bishop was "as peaceful as a lamb".

Just to show that even the selfish demand of a single small and local ruler for luxury goods could lead to trade deals between two regions. It wasn't always economic thinking that led to trade.

This was also part of the problem Europe had with the Muslims sitting on the Silk Road. They not only collected tolls, but their growing empire also took more and more of those goods for itself, leaving less and less for everyone down the line. This in turn set up the need to find a way around the Silk Road by sea, which then led to the events that Europa Universalis covers.
I would be very interested to read the book you mentioned. Do you know the name?
 
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Do you know what the defining difference was between a city and a village in medieval times? It's market rights. The right to hold market, for which you have to import something in order to sell it. Goods that weren't readily available everywhere. That included things that were sold as they came, i.e. wine, furs etc., but also many processed goods, that were crafted by expert artisans using those rare goods.

The time in which the number of market towns rapidly increased was the 11th century, which is still well into the first half of the game's time period. That is where trade in Europe started to become a thing. It also wasn't uncommon to demand from a trader, in addition to a toll, to stay a day or two and offer their goods to the local community. Cities sitting on a river (on which goods were transported) often did that.

You're right, of course, feudal castles weren't known for their trade, and many nobles didn't hold cities and therefore only collected tolls. But it was the king/emperor who gave out market rights to cities, and you can bet they got something in return for it. The medieval practice of giving out market rights to certain settlements goes back to Charlemagne, so it actually predates the earliest starting year of the game. That is also where the CK3 system currently falls short with its hard distinction between castle and city holdings. Cities like Rome, Constantinople, London etc. weren't a feudal castle, but not calling them a city would be an insult. But you can bet they all had market rights and were centers of trade.

So, while you're right that many local nobles didn't have any economic thinking (especially not in terms of GDP), they still needed cities to meet their more refined needs. Where do you think all the spices for their daily food, all the fine textiles for clothing, the colors, the artists and painters came from? Even something simple as a stone quarry with expert stone masons was of great value, as you needed them to build/upgrade castles or build big churches. Especially the clergy was in huge demand for stone, art and textiles, for fine works of gold and silver etc.

Nobles (to which I also count theocratic rulers like bishops) were well aware of how important trade was, what access to certain resources and their value meant, they knew the importance of ports for trade and directly profited from it. Not just in taxes, but also in getting what they needed. The higher you went up the ladder, the more economic the thinking became.

Venice, for example, only rose to power because it was the main trade hub between the ERE and HRE. The 4th crusade against the ERE was a direct consequence of Venice fighting for economic dominance. Extremely interesting to read how the whole thing started and went on for years.

Anyway, I had a book once that covered the life of the local clergy in medieval times. There it was described that the bishop here engaged in vivid trade to import good wine, and could become very cranky if he didn't get any. In exchange he gave fur, for which the local region was known. One time the other bishop, who provided the wine, played a prank on our local bishop. He told his envoy to keep the wine delivery outside the city and tell the bishop here that the delivery was lost. Then the historian went on to describe how the bishop jumped into a fit of rage, before the envoy - in modern terms - said "it's a prank, bro!". After that the wine was brought in and the bishop was "as peaceful as a lamb".

Just to show that even the selfish demand of a single small and local ruler for luxury goods could lead to trade deals between two regions. It wasn't always economic thinking that led to trade.

This was also part of the problem Europe had with the Muslims sitting on the Silk Road. They not only collected tolls, but their growing empire also took more and more of those goods for itself, leaving less and less for everyone down the line. This in turn set up the need to find a way around the Silk Road by sea, which then led to the events that Europa Universalis covers.
Very interesting thanks for the insight ! I think you're right and I definitely would like economic overhaul, just not an economic sim like some seem to wish for. Imo the game should let you control only what your character could actually control (maybe a bit more, like chosing innovation focus is good).

Anyway ck3 is definitely lacking the silk road and trade post mechanics, maybe even merchant republics as playable.
 
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If there are a ton of new interactions, can we please get that awful interactions interface fixed ?
Why are the most used ones (like convert to witchcraft) always hidden behind a second mouseclick ? Just freaking show all of them at once next to another somehow.
 
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I would be very interested to read the book you mentioned. Do you know the name?

I don't have it anymore, sadly. Had it some five years ago for the last time, but there's a limit to how many things one can keep. It was (and probably still is) your typical history book describing local history. Overall not that interesting or remarkable, but some funny tidbits stuck with me.

There are more stories about that particular bishop, though. He often complained about how long certain prayers or a service took (up to 3 hrs or more, which was common then), so the historians noted that he used to increase the speed by which certain prayers were sung, to the point of absurdity, just so he could go back to his meal. As, you know, there was the practice of fasting before a service. So all people were hungry to begin with, only this bishop couldn't cope with it as well as others.

One time, when he visited a monastery and knew from experience that the service would take quite some time, he brought food (fish or meat, I'm not sure) and had the monks in the kitchen prepare it. He also ordered all doors between the kitchen and the church to be opened, so that the smell of the food would, and I quote from my unreliable memory, "make them pray faster" (as mentioned earlier, everyone was hungry to begin with). It was noted that it worked.

If I ever stumble over it, or any personal notes or documents containing a reference to the book's name, I'll try to think back to this thread and provide you with all data. But I also have to warn you that this book isn't available in English, at least not to my knowledge.
 
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Honestly, I'm actually really pleasantly surprised with the small but notable number of people here who've said they'd genuinely really like more agricultural content. :) It's always good to be able to point to this type of thing when discussing future plans, and though I'm definitely not in the Add Pops to CK3 camp that's occasionally chatted about on the forums, I am pretty interested in the type of thing you're talking about here - mechanical consequences to agrarian societies for lengthy wars, a more flexible representation of prosperity than the development system currently gives us, and economics that are a little more detailed without going full trade-sim.

I've also always felt that, especially for minor land-owners where it would be a more pressing concern, it'd be neat to have more content related to bad or good harvests sweeping the realm, boons from the advance of agricultural techniques, changing global temperatures, and so on. ^^' Though I don't think we'd ever do a DD on agrarian science research, I wouldn't be complaining if I was in a position where I had to write a DD on a handful of new agricultural mechanics and events.
I agree pops would be a bit of a problem, instead having population or something like that as a value like I said originally.

I also think it would be awesome to have more events decisions and options to do things as a real landlord (for your direct holdings) a duty you maybe can direct to a minor titel if you don't wanna get bothered by it.

Also a few events for the major adviser posts depending on your task would be awesome, like haggling with peasents or miners when you develope a province for your liege, paying out of your own pocket for some of your lieges troops to curry favor and arm them better for a small while, trying to seduce a member of the court you are spying on, or some spy trying to seduce you while you are defending your monarch. Stuff like that, especially if the other side can interact with tasks and your liege gets feedback on how well/bad you are doing or maybe gets wind that you are stealing money etc.
 
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I think they absolutely are - I was convinced when Wokeg liked my post saying that regencies fit in with the theme of the next expansion, i.e. reinforcing the connection between map and character.

edit: Got a Wokeg ‘like’ on this post too. Excited to see the regency mechanics in detail! :)
“Like” suggests to me that your supposition was partly correct; I believe he uses “Love” when someone hits it on the nose.

So perhaps Regencies are part of the new mechanics, but there’s more to it?

Edit: autocorrect changed a word to an incorrect word, naturally. :p

2nd edit: PDS Noodle just “hearted” this post! Regencies+, y’all! [happydance]
3rd edit: but Wokeg only “liked” it, so my deduction is only partly correct. /lol! So which part is correct, and which part wrong?
4th edit: Rageair marked this “helpful.” (My guess is PDS_Noodle and rageair are confirming the dev-emoji code, and Wokeg is responding to ‘Regencies+‘....or he’s messing with me? :p
 
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The first looks like a spymaster by his pose, the second like a noblewoman, the third noble nord and the last one a english king
A spymaster pose? With his feet showing so garishly? The very idea.
 
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A spymaster pose? With his feet showing so garishly? The very idea.

What is the meaning of the feet shown everywhere? Is the dev diary title an anagram? And what about the thirteenth century hint?

I am going insane....

I hope all of this will be explained in due time!
 
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What is the meaning of the feet shown everywhere?
It's a viral promotion for their new image posting platform, OnlyClans ;)
 
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What is the meaning of the feet shown everywhere? Is the dev diary title an anagram? And what about the thirteenth century hint?

I am going insane....

I hope all of this will be explained in due time!
Maybe the feet being shown is a hint towards traveling since you walk with your feet. Or maybe one of the devs has the deviant trait and this is them exposing their own hook. Time will tell.
 
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Maybe the feet being shown is a hint towards traveling since you walk with your feet.

That was my earlier guess as well, but I didn't see a dev response suggesting we were on the right track...

I'll go with this hypothesis now: the first three characters have in common that they wear leather shoes, while the fourth character wears some kind of chainmail boots.

If he were at least wearing sabatons, then I'd take it as a hint that there will be a Sabaton soundtrack....
 
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That was my earlier guess as well, but I didn't see a dev response suggesting we were on the right track...

I'll go with this hypothesis now: the first three characters have in common that they wear leather shoes, while the fourth character wears some kind of chainmail boots.

If he were at least wearing sabatons, then I'd take it as a hint that there will be a Sabaton soundtrack....

You're gonna kick yourself when you find out!
 
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Feet, a clue? Yes, two of them. Like two days have gone since the DD. You use your feet for walking, a way of travelling, what other thing does travel? News. A synonym for news? Announcements. THAT'S IT! THE ANNOUNCEMENT IS NEAR
 
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What is the meaning of the feet shown everywhere? Is the dev diary title an anagram? And what about the thirteenth century hint?

I am going insane....

I hope all of this will be explained in due time!
  1. Just neat to show off a little more of the body for a change, y'know?
  2. No.
  3. 13th century best century.
  4. ;).
 
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  1. Just neat to show off a little more of the body for a change, y'know?
  2. No.
  3. 13th century best century.
  4. ;).
Is it that we can now change characters' trousers and shoes in the outfit editor?

Or that characters can now move/walk around scenes - rather than always being stationary?

The constant references to feet and legs and "kicking yourself" must mean something? o_O
 
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