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Dev Diary #115 - Monumental Foundations

Hello and welcome to this dev diary where we will be looking into some new map visuals that’ll be added in the future. As the team grows, we’ve had the opportunity for our new artists to warm up by sprucing up the map a little. Among the things we’ll show off today, chief is the Canterbury Cathedral and its evolution over time: made by our new Environment artist Joel, who’s written about his process and the research involved.

Building a Monument – Canterbury Cathedral​

The Original Church - Tier 1​

When creating the first tier of the Canterbury Cathedral, which references the Anglo-Saxon church extant in the 867 & 1066 start dates, it was important to acknowledge the lack of available visual reference material. Historically speaking, the Anglo-Saxon church was burnt down in 1067, but we do have some conceptual renditions and blueprints of the estimated building layout to work from, courtesy of the archeologists (our heroes).

blueprint1.png
blueprint2.png

Sometimes luck strikes and blueprints or estimated ones can be found.

From this, I created a fairly basic interpretation of the church that serves well as the first/starting stage for the Canterbury Cathedral. Additional geometry, like pillars and an external house, was added to the building to create a more compelling in-game silhouette.

tier1.png

The original Anglo-Saxon church - Tier 1

The Norman Cathedral - Tier 2​

After the first fire, a second church was built in its place, distinctively making use of the Romanesque style. As we move forward in history, more references become available, and fortunately the church foundations are described as rather similar to the church of today. The more significant differences to modern Canterbury Cathedral are, for example, the front and main towers: they are still Romanesque.

tier2.png

Canterbury Cathedral - Tier 2

Romanesque and Gothic
If this happens to be your first time coming across these terms, some explaining might be in order. Romanesque and Gothic are two styles of architecture which defined buildings and churches throughout the Medieval era. Romanesque, the older of the two, emerged sometime around the year 1000 and lasted until around 1150. It’s a style arising from and defined by Germanic, Byzantine and old Roman influences, favoring circular Roman arches and a more solid-looking facade compared to later churches.

lessay.png

Romanesque Abbaye de Lessay

From the Romanesque emerged the Gothic in the 12th-13th centuries. In Gothic architecture, Roman arches find themselves replaced by Gothic ones; we also see elaborate ribbed vaults, towering flying buttresses, and church interiors brightened by large stained glass windows.

chartres.png

Chartres Gothic Cathedral

Modeling
I technically started with the third tier of the structure of the Canterbury Cathedral, rather than the second tier. Because we work with modular pieces and texture atlases, I find it easier to work from the complete cathedral, then remove any additional geometry. It also meant that the last tier would have most of the same layout as the modern cathedral, minus some of the later additions.

modular.png

Modular pieces used for building the Cathedral

With the modular pieces ready, it was then just a question of assembling the cathedral.


The Gothic Cathedral - Tier 3​

We could see in the final version of the Cathedral that a lot of areas had been raised since the time of the second, so I simply made minor tweaks to the height of some walls and roofs, while preserving the original UV. The back of the cathedral had also been extended and rebuilt, with the addition of two new structures. The south-west tower was rebuilt, but not the north-west tower as of yet: that happened later historically.


cathedral.jpg

The cathedral with the towers in the front. The main tower however was a new construction past CK3’s timeline.

tier3.png

Canterbury Cathedral - Tier 3

The third tier takes on a Gothic style, with flying buttresses along the length of the cathedral, and it also puts a golden angel on the pinnacle of the main tower.


Basing and Decal
In order for us to be certain that our holdings will be placed correctly on the map, we extend the ‘basement’ of the mesh into the ground to accommodate for the map’s height differences.
This ensures we have no areas free flying in the air. Usually this is a bigger issue for holdings than monuments, as monuments have a single specific place on the map where they exist.

decal-texture.png

Decal texture in Substance Painter

We also create decals that show a more interesting ground variation around the structure. In my case, I painted out some roads to give life to the area. Some color variation to the grass to better blend in with the rest of the map, and darker areas where the cathedral would be located. The decal plane is on average twice the size of our building.

tiers1-3.png

Anglo-Saxon church , Romanesque Cathedral, Gothic Cathedral T1 - T2 - T3

After all the buildings were done and I was happy with the progression from tier 1 to tier 2 and tier 3, I could finalize the UV’s. We use two UV maps to layout the textures: one is for the ambient occlusion that we bake in, and the other for the texture atlas. The texture atlas lets us reuse textures to save on performance. I did the baking in marmoset with a low poly to low poly set up. Normally you have a high poly to bake down to the low poly mesh, but I was only after the ambient occlusion.

Bonus Bridge Update​

A new set of cultural stone bridges will be added over the world, replacing some of the old wooden bridges and overall making it a bit clearer where the safer river crossings are. We will be adding a total of four standard bridge types, for Western Europe, the Mediterranean, the Middle East, and Indian regions.


bridges.png

These bridges have been based on historical examples sampled from these regions. The Western and Mediterranean bridges are based on arched bridges from Europe, with the appropriate local flairs. The Middle Eastern bridge is based upon Sassanid designs like the Marnan and Kohneh bridge, among others, and are mostly found in the regions around modern Iran and Iraq. The Indian bridges take their inspiration from the Athernala bridge in eastern India.
 
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Thanks for the update! Here’s hoping it’s the next DLC announcement…if the team are aspiring to four releases this year, and if I recall correctly they said in a previous dev diary that big releases would get around 2 months’ worth of dev diaries, then I expect the announcement can’t be too far off!
I feel the same, I think they're definitely trying to get it out before summer. Actually by that logic, since they have summer and winter vacation, we should expect 2 big patches ie. flavorpack + Expansion before summers start. On the other hand, I really thought we would see Royal Court before the summer too. I guess they could squeeze it tight by doing a northern lords style announcement but that wouldn't make sense since they even said themselves they don't want to do that anymore which I agree, I don't like shadowdrops.
 
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But it's really hard to enjoy stuff like this when there are so many important things this game lacking in almost every aspect from the basics like overlapping feudal sovereignties (well, in real world you could be easily a vassal for two or even three lords for various territories under your legitimate rule like for example Valois dukes of Burdungy in France and the Holy Roman Empire, but in CK universe you would be considered usurper for some de jure lands)
In the case of this particular thing, while you are right that it would be cool and realistic I think the devs have already said multiple times that doing that is basically impossible because of engine limitations.
 
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It would be great if playing in different parts of the world actually felt different. The only thing that feels different is when you are a pagan. I love this game, but we really need flavor in the world and new gameplay systems to challenge us. Game is really easy.
 
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It's a very nice content and idea for buildings, respect your work a lot as it's really nicely done and looks niet. But it's really hard to enjoy stuff like this when there are so many important things this game lacking in almost every aspect from the basics like overlapping feudal sovereignties (well, in real world you could be easily a vassal for two or even three lords for various territories under your legitimate rule like for example Valois dukes of Burdungy in France and the Holy Roman Empire, but in CK universe you would be considered usurper for some de jure lands) or cities struggle for their rights and autonomy (including the city leagues or bloody wars and conflicts with their lords like that in Flanders) to the church hierarchies and organisation (conclave, saints cult, abbeys, bishoprics, archbishoprics etc) or the proper crusades (where AI don't just jump into them for no reason except random call)...
While I don't necessarily agree with all your concrete suggestions, I agree that I would rather see them focus on building up the non-graphical aspects of the game. In fact, if they could just throw up their hands and say "Ah, good enough!" and stop all work on graphics I'd be very happy with that. :)

They're not gonna do that, though, and the problem is that resources can't be shifted so easily. For example, they can't just dial down graphical production and put the graphics people on engine programming or some other task - they don't have the competency for it, just like the programmers don't have the competency to do graphic design.

(My apologies to any extremely talented renaissance men among the programmers or graphics people at Paradox. :) )

EDIT: I hereby extend the above proclaimed apology to any equally talented renaissance women among the programmers or graphics people at Paradox. :)
 
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Ahem. So the extremely talented renaissance women are not included in your gracious apologies? :p

I do get weary of the too-common assumption that everyone here is male. ;)
Well, if you happen to be an extremely talented woman who can perform both programming and graphic design at a professional level, then I prostrate myself before you in humble apology (and admiration!), and beg your kind forgiveness. :)
 
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Well, if you happen to be an extremely talented woman who can perform both programming and graphic design at a professional level, then I prostrate myself before you in humble apology (and admiration!), and beg your kind forgiveness. :)
Rookie mistake, I tend to use people nowadays ;)
 
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I like it, I support the developers.
But the game needs new mechanics and scripts. I still don't understand why there is no conclave in the game. This is fatally necessary for the atmosphere of the Middle Ages.
 
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I like it, I support the developers.
But the game needs new mechanics and scripts. I still don't understand why there is no conclave in the game. This is fatally necessary for the atmosphere of the Middle Ages.
The papal conclave isn't something that was a factor during the whole period of the game.

Until 1059 there wasn't even a college of cardinals - the Pope would be selected by the Roman people (as in the city). After this there was a college of cardinals, but the people and lower churchmen of Rome could reject the chosen candidate - until 1139 when the right of the laity and lower churchmen was abolished, with all the cardinals being involved fully from 1179.
In 1274 we then get the beginning of what could be recognised as a conclave, although the rules on this varied for the next 25-30 years, and there were in some cases multi-year deadlocks.

So, if we go with the earlier start date, the conclave as we know it isn't representative for more than half the game.
 
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I like it, I support the developers.
But the game needs new mechanics and scripts. I still don't understand why there is no conclave in the game. This is fatally necessary for the atmosphere of the Middle Ages.
Are you talking about the papal conclave, or about the stuff from the Conclave expansion from CKII?
 
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Kvelen

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So, if we go with the earlier start date, the conclave as we know it isn't representative for more than half the game.
Since 1059, only cardinals have elected the Pope. The opinion of the people was only formal. In addition, we do not play like ordinary people. But we can arrange/imitate a meeting of cardinals (and early than 1059). Conclave is a code name.

The influence on the election of the pope unlocks many interesting mechanics.
 
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Since 1059, only cardinals have elected the Pope. The opinion of the people was only formal. In addition, we do not play like ordinary people. But we can arrange/imitate a meeting of cardinals (and early than 1059). Conclave is a code name.

The influence on the election of the pope unlocks many interesting mechanics.
Fair, but we need to be careful not to back project the college of cardinals (especially in late medieval form) to the early period of the game.

The 1059 college of cardinals acts somewhat differently to the 1274 conclave, both in composition and how the elections are run.

The electors even vary significantly in this period - including periods when (de facto) someone's army was voting, and points where various rulers claimed to have a veto on the position of Pope.
 
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@Carlberg Hello ! I'm living in Chartres and can see the cathedral from my window :) happy to see it on this forum. But can we have AZERTY mapping ? asked by your belgian and french community from day 1, or at least a *.txt to configure ourself ? I wouldn't dare open yet another bug report there is plenty for this one :eek:

maybe you could help us reach the devs ! i can send more Chartres Cathedral pictures with better quality to repay you this favor haha

Salutations from Chartres !
 

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Fair, but we need to be careful not to back project the college of cardinals (especially in late medieval form) to the early period of the game.
I agree, the meeting of the cardinals can be simplified. For example, there were 13 powerful cardinals in Medieval Total War. Developers can give us the ability to upgrade our court priests (or other priests) so we can promote them to cardinals, then to the throne of Rome.
 
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A lowborn Emperor

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And still bringing your (valid!) core message (= there is an unoffical patch, which -or parts of it- could be included in the main game) over in a more constructive and less aggressive manner would be possible and more helpful. Why not just simply suggesting that they might have a look at mod X to save them some work or updating the bug reports of the bugs covered by the patch mod with a hint that a solution has been found by a modder? Don't you think that this might be more productive than making demands about what the dev team has to feel or claims about them "ignoring" certain bugs?

The passive aggression starts with "is expanding by one junior programmer to tackle their embarrassment" and is liberally sprinkled through the rest of the post.

The non-passive-aggressive version of your post would look something like this:

"Have you looked at this mod (link to mod here)? It fixes a bunch of things you've not yet published a fix for."

When it comes to passive-aggressive posts in this thread you are certainly better than others. At least you had some constructive criticism and goal-oriented direction in there.

The passive-aggression doesn't help your point, but you are right that there exist open-source-ish patches for objective bugs in the game that the devs maybe should take a look at.
Just cut out the unnecessary part next time and you'd make an even better contribution to the discussion. :)

Like I said part of the territory.

Almost like you really believe Paradox are not aware of the mod I mentioned, like not even one member of Paradox is aware of the mod that has been posted in the mods section of their plaza, like not even the forum mod that had to calm down a particularly anal complaint about the mod, ofc that doesn't mean the forum mod would then provide feedback about the mod's claims at an internal meeting, and that ofc assumes they have such meetings.

But end of the day if a mod or dev contacts me to tell me to temper my speech in this or other threads I will ofc take notice, for anyone else it's just a case of
oh you don't like what I said or how I said it, cool, I'll maybe comply with your instructions when the Sun finally runs out of fuel, maybe
basically on the level of some god fearing Christain telling some random dude that swore in public they're a bad person that will burn in the imaginary after life fire of Hell ... not even yawn worthy.

Nice talk though ;)
 
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Like I said part of the territory.
And war crimes are part of the territory of wars (pretty much guaranteed).
Does that mean we should just ignore the fact that's going on? That logic is absurd.
like not even one member of Paradox is aware of the mod that has been posted in the mods section of their plaza
I doubt too many working hours are planned to check what mods got uploaded this week.
They might easily miss that people mention such mods on the forum - and are more likely to do so if the forums are toxic as hell and they have to stay away from them for their own sanity.

oh you don't like what I said or how I said it, cool, I'll maybe comply with your instructions when the Sun finally runs out of fuel, maybe
Yes, not giving a crap about other people makes you very cool.
 
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A lowborn Emperor

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And war crimes are part of the territory of wars (pretty much guaranteed).
Does that mean we should just ignore the fact that's going on? That logic is absurd.
Likening not giving a crap about someone's opinion on this forum to war crimes is absurd.
Yes, not giving a crap about other people makes you very cool.
Such a puerile response, but I guess you felt you had to show the world you're so much cooler :cool:
 
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