Dev Diary #101 - Saints and Ancestors

[Sushurashi]

In modern economies the "lower taxes, get more revenue" is encompassed in the Laffer Curve. I doubt that is applicable to 15th century Protugal, so I am going to second her tax reform as a miracle.

Just so you know, the Laffer Curve is a myth and as such it is equally unemployable in modern economies as well. Reducing Tax's has never resulted in increased revenue. The effects of putting the Laffer Curve into practice have at their mildest resulted in a modest reductions in revenue, to, at their worst, been a total disaster for the economy (for an example of the latter see state of Kansas).

p.s. I love how spellchecker wanted to turn disaster into devastator = )

 

[AjayAlcos]

Just so you know, the Laffer Curve is a myth and as such it is equally unemployable in modern economies as well. Reducing Tax's has never resulted in increased revenue. The effects of putting the Laffer Curve into practice have at their mildest resulted in a modest reductions in revenue, to, at their worst, been a total disaster for the economy (for an example of the latter see state of Kansas).

p.s. I love how spellchecker wanted to turn disaster into devastator = )

Yes & no.

A flat-tax's success at increasing revenue depends almost wholly on the context in which it is applied; namely by calculating things like local economic behaviour, administrative competency and innumerable other factors. Russia for example saw an overall increase in tax-revenue since implementing a flat-income tax in 2001. Understanding this increase however cannot be fully appreciated without understanding the context. The flat-tax was a key part of an overall 'simplification' of the tax system, as the existing post-Soviet bureaucracy was incapable at enforcing compliance among the tax base as a whole due to the overall complexity of the previous tax code and understandably; a lack of administrative resources with which to enforce it (as well as other factors like corruption). As a result, the flat-tax in Russia's case was pivotal in improving tax-compliance and thus increasing overall tax revenue.

What maybe true for Russia however would not necessarily be so for other developed countries. G7 countries have more mature bureaucracies by comparison, and rather importantly; the complementary resources with which to effectively administrate things like a complex tax system. So implementing a flat-tax in one place would almost certainly have very different effects (i.e. negative) in another, given differing contexts.

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I should point out that Arthur Laffer formulated his 'curve' in part from the Muqaddimah - which was written by the 14th century polymath Ibn Khaldun. As for the context of CKII, it is quite understandable why lower taxes would increase revenue over the long-term. When one considers that back then bureaucrats lacked advanced tools with which to efficiently assess potential taxable income unlikw what we have today (e.g. calculators); it is perfectly understandable why operating a progressive tax system would've been impractical - given the limited means available at the time.

 

[Keizer Harm]

I will ever be amazed at the Paradox forum's capability to go from a game design presentation about saints and venerated ancestors to a debate about bloody libertarianism, of all things.

 

[AjayAlcos]

I will ever be amazed at the Paradox forum's capability to go from a game design presentation about saints and venerated ancestors to a debate about bloody libertarianism, of all things.

With regard to these forums, debate usually trumps masturbation. I guess that would make Paradox - the anti-Pornhub?

 

[Sushurashi]

Russia for example saw an overall increase in tax-revenue since implementing a flat-income tax in 2001. Understanding this increase however cannot be fully appreciated without understanding the context. The flat-tax was a key part of an overall 'simplification' of the tax system, as the existing post-Soviet bureaucracy was incapable at enforcing compliance among the tax base as a whole due to the overall complexity of the previous tax code and understandably; a lack of administrative resources with which to enforce it (as well as other factors like corruption). As a result, the flat-tax in Russia's case was pivotal in improving tax-compliance and thus increasing overall tax revenue.

In here you mention two factors that are by themselves capable of accounting for all the increase in revenue even if the actual tax revenue declined. That is probably a hard statement to follow since it is not intuitive to say that tax revenue (may have) declined even when there is more tax money collected, so I will try and explain. Post Soviet Russia (and probably Soviet Russia too) was losing tax revenue do to a bureaucracy that was incapable of adequately collecting the tax's owed, and on top of this lost additional revenue do to corruption. One could see from this that even though the collectible tax revenue could have declined by the new lower tax code, by fixing the bureaucracy and corruption issues they were collecting more money then before simply because they were collecting a higher percentage of it.

Put another way, say that the old tax system was capable of generating 10 units of revenue. but 50% was lost due to the 2 previously mentioned factors. The new Tax system is only able to generate 7 units or revenue, but due to reforms of the bureaucracy that resulted in more efficient collection of tax's owed, and less loss due to corruption, they are now able to collect 80% of that revenue. 80% of 7 is higher then 50% of 10, thus the appearance of increased revenue. Even though it in fact actually declined, because 80% of 10 is still more then 100% of 7, so we see that there could still have been an actual loss of revenue if they were able to fix those other problems with out changing the tax rates.

What maybe true for Russia however would not necessarily be so for other developed countries. G7 countries have more mature bureaucracies by comparison, and rather importantly; the complementary resources with which to effectively administrate things like a complex tax system. So implementing a flat-tax in one place would almost certainly have very different effects (i.e. negative) in another, given differing contexts.

Well stated, and flat-tax systems are horrific for the long term prospects of an economy but the details of that are way beyond the scope of this forum. And in any case, what ever limited truth there may be in the Laffer Curve, we are far to the right of the apex (and therefor our tax rate is too small according to the principles of the Laffer Curve). Every study on the Laffer Curve suggests that the Peak should fall some where between 50% and 70% (and in some studies higher still).

 

[Snow Crystal]

Keep the thread on topic.

 

[AjayAlcos]

Keep the thread on topic.

Will do, o beata mea domina .

In here you mention two factors that are by themselves capable of accounting for all the increase in revenue even if the actual tax revenue declined. That is probably a hard statement to follow since it is not intuitive to say that tax revenue (may have) declined even when there is more tax money collected, so I will try and explain. Post Soviet Russia (and probably Soviet Russia too) was losing tax revenue do to a bureaucracy that was incapable of adequately collecting the tax's owed, and on top of this lost additional revenue do to corruption. One could see from this that even though the collectible tax revenue could have declined by the new lower tax code, by fixing the bureaucracy and corruption issues they were collecting more money then before simply because they were collecting a higher percentage of it.

Put another way, say that the old tax system was capable of generating 10 units of revenue. but 50% was lost due to the 2 previously mentioned factors. The new Tax system is only able to generate 7 units or revenue, but due to reforms of the bureaucracy that resulted in more efficient collection of tax's owed, and less loss due to corruption, they are now able to collect 80% of that revenue. 80% of 7 is higher then 50% of 10, thus the appearance of increased revenue. Even though it in fact actually declined, because 80% of 10 is still more then 100% of 7, so we see that there could still have been an actual loss of revenue if they were able to fix those other problems with out changing the tax rates.

---

Well stated, and flat-tax systems are horrific for the long term prospects of an economy but the details of that are way beyond the scope of this forum. And in any case, what ever limited truth there may be in the Laffer Curve, we are far to the right of the apex (and therefor our tax rate is too small according to the principles of the Laffer Curve). Every study on the Laffer Curve suggests that the Peak should fall some where between 50% and 70% (and in some studies higher still).

Just so as to avoid further obfuscating from the topic (and so as to make @Snow Crystal's life easier ), I shall very shortly type my response in a convo to you instead. A better and more appropriate setting with which to share our insight on the matter I think.

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That said, too-da-loo

 

[Timjames]

After the death of a pious Christian character, there is a chance for the Pope/Patriarch/local bishop to decide to beatify them. This is how they’re shown to be truly pious Christians. There will be an announcement sent out to the dynasty as well as the ones in the realm of the character. A beatified character gets a special trait, and a chance to later on be canonized.

Will it be possible to have more than one dynastic ancestor be sainted?

 

[Timjames]

I find it disturbing how many want to limit this mechanic before it's even come out. I'd rather see this mechanic become too spammy then see it be almost never in use. I don't want a game where there's only 20 saints by 1400: I want a game where, by 1400, there are hundreds of saints.

Can we steal the bodies of saints and rebury them in our provinces?
that was a thing

Also turning a minor saint into a major pilgrimage centre by building a massive cathedral

That's why the Venetian Flag got a lion.

On a similar note, stealing a saint's body should only have a piety penalty if the owner of the original tomb was a Catholic. If you're a catholic stealing St. Mark's body from Muslim Turks then you should gain piety.

Looking forward to the first Saint <insertnamehere> 'the Abomination' or Saint <insertnamehere> 'the Mutilator'

He might not even be an impious saint either; there were cases where highly sinful people repented and became saints. Two big examples are St. Paul (who repented after murdering St. Stephen) and St. Longinus (who participated in the crucifixion of Jesus, stabbing him in the side).

 

[ReallyCoolHat]

Is it gonna be possible to nominate people to be saints after they die or anything like if I wanted to nominate my brother or something?

 

[peterdude5708]

Damn too bad a headless Catholic heresy can't create saints. Would've loved to see bloodlines created from those who fought off crusades or spread the faith. Lollards need some love

 

[Chnapy]

Damn too bad a headless Catholic heresy can't create saints. Would've loved to see bloodlines created from those who fought off crusades or spread the faith. Lollards need some love

Guess the only cathar bloodlines will be trailing from their severed necks as their bodies are paraded around Albi.

okay, that probably didn't happen, but to be honest I know next to nothing about the albigensian crusades except that it wasn't a very pleasant time for the cathars.

 

[peterdude5708]

I'm surprised you can't let the headless catholic heresy declare a saint through a council of bishops in place of a head of religion.

 

[Rockphed]

Is it gonna be possible to nominate people to be saints after they die or anything like if I wanted to nominate my brother or something?

What do you mean by this? I believe the game essentially rolls a die to decide if somebody gets beatified on death. I think everyone who gets beatified pops an event for the religious head where he gets to decide if they become a saint.

Damn too bad a headless Catholic heresy can't create saints. Would've loved to see bloodlines created from those who fought off crusades or spread the faith. Lollards need some love

I'm surprised you can't let the headless catholic heresy declare a saint through a council of bishops in place of a head of religion.

Except for (I think) Waldensians, all Christian religions get Beatification. If the religion has a head (so the main branches, plus Iconoclast, Fraticelli, and (I think) the other -physite), people can be canonized.

 

[peterdude5708]

Oh, I knew this I was just wondering why they couldn't be moved up to the next level of sainthood when they don't have a religious head. I was thinking if the religion was decentralized they could just call a council of bishops to decide.

 

[Ed Mike]

I find it disturbing how many want to limit this mechanic before it's even come out. I'd rather see this mechanic become too spammy then see it be almost never in use. I don't want a game where there's only 20 saints by 1400: I want a game where, by 1400, there are hundreds of saints.

Hear! Hear! I wholeheartedly agree.

On a similar note, stealing a saint's body should have a piety penalty if the owner of the original tomb was a Catholic. If you're a catholic stealing St. Mark's body from Muslim Turks then you should gain piety.

One of my favourite bits of useless medieval trivia is the kinda-creepy history of the "Temple of Ravens".
More or less, History goes that, after the Islamic conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and the sacking of the cathedral of Toledo, grieving priests and pilgrims moved the body of Saint Vincent from the lost capital to a promontory in the region of Sagres that was famous for being a place of natural magic. The records say that an entire unkindness of ravens followed the procession all the way across the ocuppied lands and that said unkindness proceded to settle in permanent vigil atop the church to which the body of the saint was consecrated. They never left the roofs ot the temple, leading the moors that later on populated the surrounding area to name the Church of Saint Vincent as "The Temple of The Raven" ( كنيسة الغراب ). The place was feared as being haunted by Christian spirits, both human ghosts and nature spirits- and avoided by the conquerors as a place of "bad luck" for non-Christians.

It was said that the ravens of St. Vincent were ageless, and that, atop of the church, 10 ravens laid eternal vigil over the church. The church in Sagres remained as a local center of pilgrimage, active until 1173, when king Afonso of Portugal stole... ahem, transfered the body of Saint Vincent to Lisbon. Legend tells that the ravens followed the body, crying offended during the process, and that two of them followed the ship carrying the bones up to Lisbon, where they got killed by Portuguese guards.
To this day, the coat of arms of Lisbon still references the "transfer" of the body of Saint Vincent and honors the crows that followed him.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Lisbon#/media/File:LSB.png

 

[Mardols]

What could i do to increase my chances to get on my dynasty venerated ancestors i wonder. Can it only happen to recentrly passed away ?

 

[Daffius]

Is it possible to filter for bloodlines when searching for a spouse? Is it more difficult to marry a famous bloodline? Do they get trimmed by disease just like normal courtiers?

Quoting myself, but is there an easy way to filter for bloodlines in game?