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New week, new dev diary! This time, I am going to talk of the new religions and their intricacies. As I mentioned last week, there is now a new Indian religion group with three religions; Hindu, Buddhist and Jain. What you get when you buy Rajas of India is the ability to play as a ruler of one of these religions, with all the associated mechanics.

ck2_RoI_dd_02_De_Jure_Empires.png

The general idea with all three Indian religions is that they are pluralistic and tolerant, especially toward each other. Thus, none of them have any heresies to worry about. Instead, low religion authority will cause various negative events to fire, much in the same way that having negative money does. This tolerance is also reflected in province revolt risk and vassals' opinions of their lieges. Instead of heresies, characters may belong to an accepted branch of their religion. Thus, for example, a Hindu can be a Shaivist, Shaktist or one of several other denominations. This is a character trait. It is also possible to pick a specific patron god for various bonuses.

Characters of all three religions can take one wife only, but are allowed concubines, like pagans and Zoroastrians. Another great thing about the Indian religions is that they allow the designation of a favorite child as heir, regardless of the specific succession law (though abiding by the gender preference law, of course.) Lastly, and quite importantly, it's possible for players to switch between the three Indian religions (tentatively, once per lifetime at a steep Piety cost) in order to take advantage of their special mechanics when needed. Right, so those are most of the major commonalities. Of course, there are also some similarities in the kinds of events that characters of all three religions tend to get (but I'm saving that for a later dev diary!)

ck2_RoI_dd_02_De_Jure_Kingdoms.png

Hinduism is the most warlike of the three; Hindu rulers have access to the normal Holy War casus belli. In addition, they are allowed to raid neighboring provinces of non-Indian religions. Hindus, however, also need to deal with the caste system. All Hindus can be born into one of the three castes that we represent in the game; Brahmin, Kshatriya, or Vaishya. This is represented as a character trait. Priests are expected to be Brahmins, feudal rulers Kshatriyas and burghers Vaishyas. Marrying into the wrong caste - or worse - being the wrong caste, gives serious opinion penalties with other Hindus. Children born to mixed caste parents will get the lower of the two. Characters with no caste at all are the lowest of all - the untouchables. This system limits your marriage options and tends to cause strife in your realm. It is possible to get a higher caste trait through a special decision, but it is hard and costly.

Buddhists are represented as the most philosophically minded of the Indian religions. (While perhaps not entirely fair, they were historically known for their huge universities and libraries.) They don't have to worry about caste, but rulers who ever plan to switch to Hinduism might still want to take heed of it. Buddhists cannot raid and their Holy War CB is less powerful (currently, counties instead of duchies), but they do get a great bonus to Learning, meaning that they will have unmatched long-term technological progress - if they can survive...

Finally, we have Jainism, which is probably the most peaceful religion on the planet. For Jains, the concept of Ahimsa - non-violence - is the cornerstone of their faith. Thus, Jains do not have any kind of Holy War CB, and violent acts have more serious repercussions on Piety (called Karma for the Indian religions) and opinions. Too limiting? Perhaps, but there are some serious benefits as well; Jains can have much bigger demesnes, get a flat opinion bonus from their vassals, and basically don't have to worry about provincial revolts (though the effect is less on characters and provinces of non-Indian faiths.)

That's a brief summary of the new mechanics, but I should mention that although the information I've outlined above is true in the current build, it might change quite a lot for balance reasons. For example, it's rather tricky to make the three Indian religions equally beneficial, only suitable for different circumstances and play styles.

ck2_RoI_dd_02_De_Jure_Duchies.png

That's all for now. Until next week, folks!

(Regrettably, I have no relevant screenshots for you this time since a lot of the graphics is still missing. The ones I do have are of the de jure map modes in India, as promised.)
 

von Fulda

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good more lands for the Grand Caliphate
 

theKing1988

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Man, I thought we were past this. Your religion may be - and this is being charitable - inspired by the pre-christian Brythonic religions, but I don't think that means that you should be considered an authority on the way they work. The modern "pagan" religious groups, be they Celtic, Norse, Slavic or Hellenic, have no continuity with the pre-christian practices.

I couldn't agree more. Recreating various Polytheistic religions in the post-Christian era is completely impossible. Just take the word religion in itself. None of the the pre-Christian polytheistic "religions" have any concept that corresponds to this. Pietas or Eusebia which are core principles in Greek and Roman Polytheism (just examples) would be better translated with loyalty, duty or fillial respect. Which just points out how interwoven they were with other social structures and cultural habits in a way that seem alien to post-Christian Europeans.
 

vyshan

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I couldn't agree more. Recreating various Polytheistic religions in the post-Christian era is completely impossible. Just take the word religion in itself. None of the the pre-Christian polytheistic "religions" have any concept that corresponds to this. Pietas or Eusebia which are core principles in Greek and Roman Polytheism (just examples) would be better translated with loyalty, duty or fillial respect. Which just points out how interwoven they were with other social structures and cultural habits in a way that seem alien to post-Christian Europeans.

I am well aware of the christian and monotheistic Baggage, But I will strongly disagree that it is impossible to revive the Pre-christian beliefs. It is totally possible, yes it wouldn't be the same. But religions change, the early Christians were quite different from the ones of today. Or how about Judaism, Rabbinical Judaism was not the same as during the time when they had their kingdom and the temple. Besides that is neither her nor there.

What I am hoping for is for a more nuanced play for the polytheistic faiths. Right now they do not feel much like they are the polytheistic faiths. They don't capture the polytheism nor the pluralistic nature. I like for this to be represented, I want gameplay for pagans to be different from the monotheists, gives more replayability :)
 

Chattus

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Aw man. Now I have to accomplish so many things with this DLC... Kingdom of Prester John here I come. Also Buddhist Afghanistan.
 

kemmy23

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I think an arguement could be made for a class system for all the cultures within the game.
 

Kljunas

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I hope you know that Caste system was introduced around 1500 BC when the Aryans invaded. Hinduism existed long before the Aryans invaded with no "caste" system.

It still has been part of their culture for 2000 years at that point so does it really make a difference if it wasn't there since "the start"?
 

iwsfutcmd

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Renaming it to Punjab or (more historically appropriate) Hindustan would be much more accurate. Actually, Punjab would be the most geographically accurate, Punjab literally means "Land of Seven Rivers", which is what that Empire would actually be

"Five Rivers". 'panj' = 'five'. It's even a cognate -

* 'five' comes from Proto-Germanic '*fimfe' (the 'm' was dropped, leaving 'fife', and the second 'f' became a 'v' because it was between two vowels).

* '*fimfe' comes from Proto-Indo-European '*penkwe' (the 'p's became 'f's, according to Grimm's Law, the 'kw' became an 'f', and the 'n' became an 'm', as it was followed by an 'f').

* From Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Indo-Iranian emerged, which became Proto-Iranian, which eventually gave birth to Persian (from which 'Punjab' is derived). 'kw' became 'ch' (which was later voiced into 'j'), and the final vowel was lost. Hence, 'panj'.

Yay linguistics fun!
 

theKing1988

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I am well aware of the christian and monotheistic Baggage, But I will strongly disagree that it is impossible to revive the Pre-christian beliefs. It is totally possible, yes it wouldn't be the same. But religions change, the early Christians were quite different from the ones of today. Or how about Judaism, Rabbinical Judaism was not the same as during the time when they had their kingdom and the temple. Besides that is neither her nor there.

What I am hoping for is for a more nuanced play for the polytheistic faiths. Right now they do not feel much like they are the polytheistic faiths. They don't capture the polytheism nor the pluralistic nature. I like for this to be represented, I want gameplay for pagans to be different from the monotheists, gives more replayability :)

It would never be more than an homage. To properly revive them you would have to live and think like ancient Polytheists. And no European would be able to do that.
 

Oohforf

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Won't happen given how important it is even today. That's like saying abolishing baptism as a Christian.

Well yes, in this time period which we will be playing Rajas of India such an idea would probably be absurd. As for today...I don't think it would be as outrageous as many religious Hindus in this day and age find it disgusting. Can't really say the same for baptisms.

That said, I wouldn't mind being able to abolish the Caste System as a Buddhist, Jain or Muslim, etc.

Will the practice of Sati be in RoI? Or is that a bit...much? Will widowhood and remarriage in Hinduism be explored?
 

WiseGreen

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You get an achievement. "Mughal this!"

Considering the game's timeframe is when the northern Indian sultanates were historically formed, it should be totally possible, shouldn't it?
 

vyshan

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I couldn't agree more. Recreating various Polytheistic religions in the post-Christian era is completely impossible. Just take the word religion in itself. None of the the pre-Christian polytheistic "religions" have any concept that corresponds to this. Pietas or Eusebia which are core principles in Greek and Roman Polytheism (just examples) would be better translated with loyalty, duty or fillial respect. Which just points out how interwoven they were with other social structures and cultural habits in a way that seem alien to post-Christian Europeans.

It would never be more than an homage. To properly revive them you would have to live and think like ancient Polytheists. And no European would be able to do that.

Actually not true, it is hard considering that we grow up in such a monotheistic culture; but we do try to think like and live like them ancient polytheists. though if you are saying we should go back to being in the Iron age, I doubt few if any would do that.
 

cybrxkhan

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Well yes, in this time period which we will be playing Rajas of India such an idea would probably be absurd. As for today...I don't think it would be as outrageous as many religious Hindus in this day and age find it disgusting. Can't really say the same for baptisms.

That said, I wouldn't mind being able to abolish the Caste System as a Buddhist, Jain or Muslim, etc.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant in the context of the game and the medieval era, as the poster I was quoting asked whether it was possible to abolish the caste system in game as a Hindu ruler. Obviously, as you say, that would be absurd in the CKII world. Though perhaps yes as a Buddhist or Jain ruler you could attempt to abolish it, but perhaps experience a lot of unrest as a result.