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Folks, the Bengal tiger has been out of the bag for a week now, so I think it's time for the first dev diary on Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India! In this first entry, I will just give you a quick overview of what this new expansion to Crusader Kings II is and what it is not. In the weeks to come, I will cover each feature in detail.

First of all, why India? Well, it's always been a long-term goal of mine, and we have gone through the obvious stuff by now. The old eastern edge of the map is suboptimal, both politically and geographically. Many powerful states that interacted with Europe are cut in half, not to mention that the southeastern corner of the map is unhistorically dull. In general, adding India will make the whole Middle East more interesting to play. Most importantly though, India is such a dynamic and fascinating region!

ck2_RoI_dd_01_The_New_East.png

Now, there has been some speculation about how the map will be handled exactly, and the answer is simply that we are extending it far to the east. It's not a separate map or anything like that. This means that everyone who owns the game will be able to interact with, (and conquer!) India, whether they own Rajas of India or not.

In order to extend the map and try keep the wasteland areas to a minimum while at the same time making sure India was big enough, we had to twist the entire eastern part of the old map. While the new map projection is no more realistic per se, we did seize this opportunity to correct some fairly major problems with the old map, especially around the Caspian and Aral seas. The addition of all this new territory also meant we could finally put many provinces in their correct place (we had tended to crowd the eastern edge of the old map with provinces that were actually off map, due to their importance.) Apart from all the new Indian provinces, we have also added provinces in central Siberia, Transoxania and Afghanistan. So far, I think we're at about 330 new provinces, bringing the total count up to 1442 (including all sea zones), and it's likely we'll add some more before we're done.

ck2_RoI_dd_01_Corrected_Caspian.png ck2_RoI_dd_01_Siberia.png

Best of all, none of this will cost you a dime. However, if you wish to play as a Hindu, Buddhist or Jain ruler - with all the associated mechanics, graphics and events - you will have to buy the expansion. You really don't want to miss out on things like reincarnation, holy cows, levitating monks, Thuggees and tiger hunts! Oh, and there will be a unique set of Indian portraits included in Rajas of India.

Can the game really handle all these new characters and provinces without slowing to a crawl? Yes. Actually, memory usage was the bigger issue, but we've comfortably reduced that by more than 300Mb, which allows us to add all the extra characters. We've also optimized the game for speed, but it might end up running a bit slower than before (though it should only be noticeable on speed 5 unless you have an ancient rig.) I should also mention that due to the drastic changes we are making to the game, old save games will not remain compatible with version 2.1! However, version 2.0.4 will remain available as a beta branch on Steam.

That's all for today folks! Peace.

ck2_RoI_dd_01_Indus.png

[video=youtube;TBQmY4TKUrc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBQmY4TKUrc[/video]
 
Last edited:

Tufto

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It's not even the lack of realism - although, as an aside, on release the only fantasy event was the Gates of Hell, which could be rationalised as a minor volcano (although I know a lot of people see it otherwise).

It's just that, when engaging with India, anglophone pop culture has a terrible habit of just falling into this kitschy, schmaltzy stereotype of crazy levitating gurus, slathering thuggee death cultists, and all that cliched rubbish that mostly comes from superficial stereotypes from the British Raj era. Edward Said pretty much covered it with "Orientalism". I really hope the game will be about exploring the actual historical and cultural dynamics of India, not about satisfying a bunch of crude and borderline offensive sterotypes about the 'exotic east'. Hinduism, for example, is an incredibly complex religious and philosophical system, but so far it seems it's going to be all about "LOL their gods have elephant heads, and Kali cultists want to murder people because they're crazy". I hope that's just the developers pandering to the lowest common denominator, but it's still annoying.

I guess I should be grateful they didn't work a hi-larious 'goodness gracious me' quote into this DD.

It won't be like that. It's never been like that in any Paradox game. Stop being a pessimist.
 

Zolotaya

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It's not even the lack of realism - It's just that, when engaging with India, anglophone pop culture ...

It is too bad you throw in the anglophone angle into your valid concerns. I don't see the relationship you do and it detracts from your message imo.

Edit: Thank you for the developer diary DoomDark, the political map is something I wanted to see. I am also glad you will be showing the de jure maps - perhaps you can showcase all of the de jure maps: the ducal, the kingdom and the empire? All three of those will be vital in determining how gameplay unfolds.

Again, thank you.
 

Tempestra

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Well, we could argue about whether satire should be tempered by awareness of racism or not, but the thing is, I'm not really in the market for a satirical game.

Others are right that Paradox's track record is better than this - although we may dislike decadence, nobody can claim it's a cliched or orientalist approach to medieval Islam. I hope their track record remains good, but I just didn't especially like seeing that little line.
 

KPJ

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Thuggee were mentioned previous to British India, but it was British India that documented every mention of them and made them 'a thing.' It suited their purpose very much to create this myth, and I hope Paradox doesn't push this myth as well. In fact, because of the myth that the British invented, many rural Indians decided to become Thuggee as described by the British, as a way to resist the British, in one of the stranger episodes of history mimicking art.
Now, why are holy cows part of the DLC? Is the economy being expanded? Dietary rules were never a part of playing Islam or Judaism, nor Christianity (peasants shouldn't be hunting boar during lent, f.e.), so is this just another Orientalism (i.e. oooh exotic, they don't eat cows, that's interesting gameplay!)?

No mention of Islam in India. That's disappointing. Tell me how you'll implement the Sufi saints, who had some impact on history. We all know Hindus don't eat cows, it's completely insignificant and immaterial to the gameplay (as reincarnation ought to be, in my opinion).

Otherwise, I completely agree with Tempestra on his/her criticisms.

Consider Sword of Islam. It largely avoided being too Orientalist, in my opinion. It had interesting events that actually look at verses of the Koran, it added historical characters like Ibn Battuta, it implemented Turkish succession (which while not appropriate for every Islamic state, does have historical precedent), it redesigned the uses and methods of acquiring piety and crown authority, and attempted to implement a mechanic that mimicked the historical 'decadence revolts'. These are things which have effect on the game, enlighten people about Islam during the period, and make the gameplay markedly different from Christian play.

I hope in future you will tell us about actual Indian stuff and not just British stereotypes and exoticism.
 

DominusNovus

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No mention of Islam in India. That's disappointing.

No mention of any specifics really. Why be worried about that?

PS, anyone else find this whole 'boo hoo orientalism' line of complaint particularly amusing? Its either "It feels like I'm playing a feudal European Christian Lord" or "Its too exotic!"
 

KPJ

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No mention of any specifics really. Why be worried about that?

PS, anyone else find this whole 'boo hoo orientalism' line of complaint particularly amusing? Its either "It feels like I'm playing a feudal European Christian Lord" or "Its too exotic!"

Actually, I think I explained that well enough in my post. If you can't agree with my point, that's fair enough. Not everybody is sensitive to the same things.
 

Zolotaya

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... PS, anyone else find this whole 'boo hoo orientalism' line of complaint particularly amusing? Its either "It feels like I'm playing a feudal European Christian Lord" or "Its too exotic!"

No. I am one that does not appreciate any of these "rpgesque" type of events. From the Merry Men to the Chasing of the Chalice events these type of events have always been in the game and something I have never appreciated. Tempestra's and KPJ's concern is valid but so far unfounded. But I have a problem with them trying to tie Paradox's rpg-type events to any specific racism especially anglophile just because these type of things have been in the game since the beginning and have nothing to do with the British India documenting anything or any perpetuation of Oriental myths.

Chasing the Chalice events, Joan-de-Arc devil-witches and floating holy cows with light sabre sounds ripped from star wars all are symptoms of something entirely different than anglophile racism and they should never be tied to it in the first place.
 

Federalist girl

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Count me in as also curious about getting a look at the new portraits (though I'm guessing they're not done yet) as well as curious about new CoA frames. I'm sure there will be new frames though -- after all, the Norse and tengri got them.
No mention of any specifics really. Why be worried about that?

PS, anyone else find this whole 'boo hoo orientalism' line of complaint particularly amusing? Its either "It feels like I'm playing a feudal European Christian Lord" or "Its too exotic!"
Strawman. Of course we want it to feel different that playing a Christian feudal character -- t Orientalism refers to a stereotyped portrayal.

Obviously the game is using caricatures and stereotypes to some extent: it's a game and so fun wins over realism. But the Indian religions should get the same sort of treatment as the western ones. Fun but resembling reality
 

Wilsonrtf

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No mention of any specifics really. Why be worried about that?

PS, anyone else find this whole 'boo hoo orientalism' line of complaint particularly amusing? Its either "It feels like I'm playing a feudal European Christian Lord" or "Its too exotic!"

The point is not about "too exotic" being bad. It´s actually the opposite of that. Tempestra and KPJ are arguing that an "exotic" and Orientalist (as Edward Said defines it) viewpoint, instead of a respectful depiction of Indian culture (which could be humorous sometimes, by the way), would be bad. Would, as we don´t know if it will be. But the concern is pretty valid, considering some of the event references already given.
 

Jokolytic

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It's quite obvious, no? The game as always been about realistic events such as gates to hell, virgin births, demonic possessions and dialogue with Jesus.

But all those events are realistic. The evidence for those are just as valid as any random battle or alliance.
 

SchwarzKatze

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No. I am one that does not appreciate any of these "rpgesque" type of events. From the Merry Men to the Chasing of the Chalice events these type of events have always been in the game and something I have never appreciated. Tempestra's and KPJ's concern is valid but so far unfounded. But I have a problem with them trying to tie Paradox's cheesy events to any specific racism especially anglophile just because these type of things have been in the game since the beginning and have nothing to do with the British India documenting anything or any perpetuation of Oriental myths.

Chasing the Chalice events, Joan-de-Arc devil-witches and floating holy cows with light sabre sounds ripped from star wars all are symptoms of something entirely different than anglophile racism and they should never be tied to it in the first place.
I hope PDS make those fantasy events optional like what Bethesda did with FO:NV
 

Halcyan

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An Oriental focus definitely makes sense for Crusader Kings 2.

With such a focus on the Crusades, it would be rather difficult if the game didn't include the Orient (such as the Levant, Egypt, and Middle East). You guys *are* referring to the original meaning/scope of the Orient, right?

As for the "Orient" referring to farther East (such as India and China), that didn't happen until the 1800's, well outside CK2's time frame! :rofl:
 

Jokolytic

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I hope PDS make those fantasy events optional like what Bethesda did with FO:NV

^THIS. Make it a start game option or trait to have "Strange Events" appear or not. I just might make a thread about that.

Also, I'm sick of these "m-muh racism!!" posts. Don't cry racism when this game has the Steppe peoples and Arabs looking like Indians, and there are no cultural/racial blending mechanics to speak of.
 

KPJ

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An Oriental focus definitely makes sense for Crusader Kings 2.

With such a focus on the Crusades, it would be rather difficult if the game didn't include the Orient (such as the Levant, Egypt, and Middle East). You guys *are* referring to the original meaning/scope of the Orient, right?

As for the "Orient" referring to farther East (such as India and China), that didn't happen until the 1800's, well outside CK2's time frame! :rofl:

Oh, we're talking about Orientalism, but nice try.

Wilsonrtf: Well-put and thank you for clarifying.
 

Ols

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Very few people here are likely to know the political and semantic meaning of "Orientialism" so there's little value in bringing it in.

That said, I don't think Paradox perpetuates too strong an orientalist view of places outside of Europe - I think they do genuinely try to engage with the cultures and religions they show.
 

edwardianed

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We all know Hindus don't eat cows, it's completely insignificant and immaterial to the gameplay...

So say a western king subjugates India and decides to throw a feast for his new vassals, the fact that they are Hindu and don't eat cows couldn't possibly be affected by serving them a huge banquet consisting mainly of fowl, pork and mountains of roast beef? What possible gameplay effects could massively insulting a swathe of your vassals have?