Greetings friends, 'tis I, Doomdark, your faithful purveyor of hopes and dreams!

This month, I shall speak of those who know no loyalties and would shamelessly sell their services for money. No, I don't mean prostitutes. No, not politicians either. I am speaking, of course, of mercenaries! Brave, yet prudent, these companies of professional soldiers were the closest thing to standing armies around for much of the Crusader Kings II period. In the game, there are a number of predefined mercenary regiments that can be hired by anyone with sufficient funds (though not heathens and infidels - there are limits, even for soldiers of fortune.) As long as they get paid, they will fight loyally, and, unlike regular levies, they even reinforce, albeit slowly. They do not come cheap however, and woe to the lord who cannot pay their fee. At best, mercenaries who do not get paid will simply abandon their employer. At worst, they will defect to the enemy. Some disgruntled but enterprising condottieri might even attempt to seize land to call their own (as, for example, the Victual Brothers actually did with the island of Gotland in the Baltic Sea.)



Yes, mercenaries can seize territory, at which point they start acting like regular states. This brings us to the in may ways similar, but rather more pious, knightly orders. These humble soldiers of God can be hired not for gold, but for Piety. However, they will not fight brothers of the faith, and they will request ownership of the holdings that they seize (acceding is a very pious act). Landed mercenaries will retain their standing army, though it will no longer reinforce (eventually, it might thus be lost), and everyone will have a Casus Belli on them. Landed Holy Orders can still freely call on their main force, however. (If lost, they can raise it again through a special decision.) Similarly, the Byzantines have access to the Varangian Guard, which is treated much like a "vassal" mercenary force.



Should a mercenary regiment or a Holy Order lose its last holding, it will return to being a landless entity available for hire.



Here's a bonus screenie of what occupation looks like in the terrain map mode.



That's all for now. Next month, plots and intrigue (unless I change my mind!)

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[KonradRichtmark]

I was wondering if females may be represented to some degree in military orders. Granted exceptionally rare, there are cases in which women did engage in combat, and there have been several military orders created for them. However, I do recognize these are exceptional and may not serve exactly the same purpose for the game. Maybe some other concept can be envisioned to give flesh to female warriors, rare and exceptional though they may be.

Order of the Hatchet of Barcelona: Established in 1149 by Count Raymond Berenger IV, Count of Barcelona, to honor the women who fought for the defense of the town of Tortosa against Moor attacks. The women knights, known in English as dames and in the source documents as ”Equitissae” and “Militissae”, were excempt from taxes and took precedence over men in public occasions. According to Ashmole in “The Institution, Laws, and Ceremony of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1672), CH. 33, sec. 3, the Order of the Hatchet was hereditary “deriving the honor to their Descendants,” but by the 17th century the order had died out.

Order of the Glorious Saint Mary: founded by Loderigo d’Andalo of Bologna in 1233 and approved by Pope Alexander IV in 1261, was a religious order later disbanded in the 17th century.

Lastly, though not part of any military order, other notable women did engage in combat and warfare, to various degrees of success.

Princess Gwenllain of Deheubarth raised an army to defend the Welsh of her country against vicious raids led by Maurice of London in the 12th century, and of course Joan of Arc, who was made a saint and whose family were enobled for her singular efforts.

Like I said, I recognize that women warriors and women military orders are exceptional and probably outside of the idea envisioned here, but maybe a player may create such an order himself? Or women such as Princess Gwenllain and Joan of Arc may be given a chance to be seen in the coarse of a game?


@RedRooster: thanks for your warm welcome back to the forums,
@Fiftypence: You’ve done a masterful job on your map Fifty, and I appreciate the detail (especially of the Celtic lands). I look forward to your contributions post release.

All those are freak occurrences, the proverbial exceptions that prove the rule. A "realistic" implementation of the tiny chance that circumstances would arise which would allow for women to become fighters and get away with it, would be a feature that would become relevant for the player in perhaps one game out of a hundred. Totally not worth spending programmer man-hours on, of which a finite, precious amount of is allocated to the game.

 

[Nuril]

All those are freak occurrences, the proverbial exceptions that prove the rule. A "realistic" implementation of the tiny chance that circumstances would arise which would allow for women to become fighters and get away with it, would be a feature that would become relevant for the player in perhaps one game out of a hundred. Totally not worth spending programmer man-hours on, of which a finite, precious amount of is allocated to the game.

Which is why I was just hoping for moddable requirements with the possibility of setting them with a trigger so you could have these convoluted situations in mods, through your own work.

For example: Having a triggered modifier for certain circumstances in the kingdom, having the event enabled through those circumstances be character-specific, having strict demands over what the female character would need to qualify and then have the "Yes" trigger the blowback for it (however much there actually were, that I leave to historians of such women). Could set country_flags for X amount of time so there aren't a lot of them simultaneously from one period of time. All of this could be handled with the tools already in EU3 just applied to characters instead. <3

 

[Garak]

Maybe it is just legend that was adopted like so many tales, but I will search the portuguese tale and post it here.

I thought it was originally a biblical story. The version about Carcassonne sounds exactly like the story I remember, except I thought it took place in Biblical times in Judea. /shrug

 

[RedRooster81]

Which is why I was just hoping for moddable requirements with the possibility of setting them with a trigger so you could have these convoluted situations in mods, through your own work.

For example: Having a triggered modifier for certain circumstances in the kingdom, having the event enabled through those circumstances be character-specific, having strict demands over what the female character would need to qualify and then have the "Yes" trigger the blowback for it (however much there actually were, that I leave to historians of such women). Could set country_flags for X amount of time so there aren't a lot of them simultaneously from one period of time. All of this could be handled with the tools already in EU3 just applied to characters instead. <3

Aye, you could. Leave it open to modders. And if you want to have warrior queens that's up to you. I would say that your mod would get some downloads (there are those hex patches for female bishops, female marshals for CK1 each with more than 1000 downloads, so there is some interest in the community). But Konrad's point that it should not be a focus of the developers' efforts is worthwhile. I think we need to keep in mind here that some things are ideas floated for future mods, less aimed at the devs than the community that we already have built up on this forum.

 

[Logos88]

I thought it was originally a biblical story. The version about Carcassonne sounds exactly like the story I remember, except I thought it took place in Biblical times in Judea. /shrug

hum in my country, this history version is seen more like a fact than a legend. You got me curious and I will see this through

I've search and it appears to be more a legend then reality, apparently there are no solid facts about her existence. If anyone wants to check the history, her name was "Deu la Deu Martins". She supposedly lived during King Ferdinand reign, and the legend was during the Ferdinand wars against Castille.

She is in the coat of arms of "Monção" by the way.

Here is a link in portuguese http://www.mulherportuguesa.com/sociedade/na-historia/3727

 

[citybug]

This sounds so supremely amazing. God, this is making me even want CK2 more and right now.

 

[the_legion]

Graphics:
- Those alerts look good
- Borders (especially in the midle east) have some "buggy" appearances.

Game Mechanics:
- look promising, can't say if it will play good but think so ...

 

[RedRooster81]

Speaking of mercenaries, how should assassinations be handled? I see that it appears as an option on the diplomatic screen, but I was hoping for something more suitably complicated. You should not just drop a few hundred gold into the hands of a random agent (those tend to break too fast under torture). Removing pretenders for political ends or more personal acts of vengeance should take a bit more thinking, planning, and creativity. I was hoping that such acts would work through the spymaster or a particularly trusted royal agent, and in some cases the king should be able to oversee the act personally. The murder of John the Fearless (during a parley no less), that of Pedro the Cruel, of Sancho II of Castille (the latter two fratricides) come to mind. There could be events or decisions to bring about assassinations of course--DVIP has some interesting events like these already IIRC.

I do hope that as in CK1, the AI is kept from using the assassination option unless it is in retaliation. All AI murders should be by event IMO.

 

[Duzaroo]

I'd like to see a sort of mercenary system in play. The higher your spymaster's intrigue the better the collection of assassins you have available. Then you can base it on the chance of success of the assassin and the target's importance. Thus if your spymaster's intrigue is 20. Then you'll have Sir Murders-a-lot, McStabbin, and Mr. Magoo in your assassin pool. Sir Murders has an extremely high percentage chance (say 85% for counts, 75% for dukes, 65% for kings, and random courtiers 95%) but will cost a 500 farthings, McStabbin's percentages are lower based but he costs less, and Mr. Magoo is used to kill random children in your court who are annoying because they keep getting a new illness every other week. Of course the percentages are modified based on the targets protection and/or own spymaster's ability, but you get the point. Plus maybe add to the assassin's skills a "Not gonna squeel" attribute (martial I guess?) in which if they are caught they don't tell on you.

I'd like to see something along these lines.

 

[RedRooster81]

I suppose that works. I still want to see some revenge events, based on those -100 you-tried-to-kill-my-sister bad relations (see the video DD #1). This could work with the announced plot feature, to get an entire dynasty in on the action against the one that had wronged them. When courtiers or barons engage in such things, people get hurt. When dukes and kings do, entire kingdoms are pulled asunder. That's why I thought of the murder of Jean sans Peur, Duke of Burgundy, on the bridge while the Dauphin watched in 1419.

Above all, when someone is assassinated (or any kind of character death in general), there should be a detailed report of the death: Earl John II Montgomery has been killed, by bandits it seems, while traveling from Kent to London.

 

[Duzaroo]

It would be really nice to see some family feuds getting on. I hate how in CK1 I can be at odds with a neighbor but my son is his best friend, but all of my daughters hate his daughter. I don't think even most modern families are going to let my sons friendship slide and they don't have a royal dynasty to think about.

It'd be nice if I could declare a blood feud. All immediate family instantly becomes rivals with all of their immediate family.

 

[RedRooster81]

I hope this will depend on how vengeful or forgiving one would be.

Even so, family honor is at stake. You should lose prestige if you leave a murder unavenged.

And some romantic love story would be appropriate with some feud like that.

Remember that we now have unilateral relations. He may love her, but she hates him because his cousin killed her uncle's half-brother. It's complicated. So she gets to decide whether to murder him at that secluded tryst, love him despite their blood feud, or tolerate an even more interesting love-hate relationship. I've had some of those in CK1, and they do keep things when the king and queen are rivals, but produce ten little heirs along the way.

 

[Duzaroo]

Shakespearian romance aside for now, I doubt most princes would fall for the girls their father calls a sow. But such things could history do, if on the event you choose option two.

 

[Drachenfire]

In CKI I was never concerned about the gender composition of my armies, nor of those of mercenaries or holy orders. And to be honest I’m not going to be looking at that composition in CKII. I am simply very excited that absolute cognatic primo will be included. I did make note that female Orders were the exception, and probably outside of the intended purpose for ‘Mercenaries and Holy Orders’ in CKII.

Yet the historic existence of the Order of the Hatchet and the Order of the Glorious St. Mary is very interesting. What is more, women were admitted into other military orders as well, albeit usually in a non-military capacity. But what should not be doubted is that some women did done on male attire, take on a masculine persona, and participate in combat along traditional lines. In a non-deterministic game, who is to say that maybe, in my realm, that women warriors to some degree did not 'resurface'?

It should be noted that I do not myself want to see AI controlled realms with barebrested Amazonian Wonder Women campaigning to take Jerusalem. But I do want to see the occasional female warrior of some sort, along the lines of Joan of Arc or Princess Gwenllain.

However, I do find Nuril’s comment very enlightened.

Someone has to be, otherwise [women would] be ignored and just end up being currency. That's not fun. Some triggered variant of EU:Rome's "Gender Equality" might be nice, so you could use that to create a company that isn't restricted to men while it's active. As a general modding tool that can be used to make exceptions when writting stuff (or put it on more equal terms if a specific culture is more of that vein etc.). Before that "Gender_equality" code was added I personally modded so that certain positions were open to women in certain tribes/cultures if they were skilled enough to make themselves stand out or if they had the rights to the position (inheritence). All ya had to do was change the "is_female = no" to "or = { is_female = no finesse = 8 }" and so forth. It comes in handy to have the conditions that flexible for all sorts of purposes.

And hello, Drachen.

((Hello Nuril!))

I like the idea, I really do. So while generally I am not paying attention to the gender composition of my armies, this ‘law’ may allow me to promote a female marshal, in my player controlled realm, if I so choose. Or maybe if I had this law in place a military order vassal within my realm would allow the occasional female leader…. so if I am playing as Queen Sibylla of Jerusalem and for my own set of reasons (manpower was always in short supply for Jerusalem for instance) I “enact” that law within my realm, then any military orders which are my vassals may allow women into their ranks (if they have high enough combat skills), and on occasion a female leader of that order may generate. Maybe this kind of law could open up the manpower for a particular realm as well. I do like that.

Regardless of whether or not female membership is included in traditional mercenaries or holy orders (which as I said is probably outside of what is intended here), I know I as a player do want to see women like Joan of Arc and Princess Gwenllain of Deheubarth. These women and the circumstances surrounding them probably could be generated by events, in which the martial skill of the character is high enough that would allow them to be assigned as a marshal or general within a player controlled realm. It should be noted that the rise of these two women in particular included half their countries being occupied, in the case of Gwenllain… a third of Wales was under occupation by Norman forces, while in France about half of the country was occupied by English forces. And the women who were knighted and formed the first generation of the Order of the Hatchet were responding to the lack of men within their city (the men had been recruited and deployed elsewhere), and they formed the front line defense for their community and repused the invader.

 

[Infocalypse]

In my eyes, it is far more probable to have female regents than female marshals or bishops. That a female regent would lead her own army into battle is, on the other hand, not too far out of the world. But a king or a queen even naming a female marshal? I do not think this should be a "regular" option.
Joan d'Arc is so well known because she was an utter exception, that in the end was bound to fail miserably. There could be events for Joan d'Arc like cases with a extremely high MTTH, but I do not see this as a "Well, my marshal slot is open, shall I promote my sister or my female cousin, 'coz I do not like my brother's stats" decision. There should be strong resistance to female marshals from non-player-characters that could indeed endanger the rule of the regent.
To say it again, I do not see who could forbid the female regent of a realm to lead her own army into battle, if she wants it (there should be the option to do this at all times with a female regent, but it shouldn't be automatic, as noone would have expected it from a female regent). But a marshal is highly improbable, and investing a female bishop would have been reason for excommunication.
I do on the other hand believe that if we have far more propaganda, espionage and diplomacy options, that this indeed would improve the value of female characters a lot; as I do not see any reason, why there shouldn't be a female initiator of espionage or diplomacy actions. Hell, I could even see queens molding their husbands into their mere puppet kings and being the real power within the realm.
But real gender equality should be left for the modders, not be part of the vanilla version. Women in power should be possible, but they should always meet strong resistance as should their patron. Piety should suffer for both (women in power would be dubbed witches and men granting too much power to women were to be seen as either under a witch's spell or "only" being guilty of disregarding the divine law that women should serve men not rule them), as should loyalty with all male subjects who could have been promoted to the same position but wasn't.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

The Order of the Hatchett was a honorary thing. Most historians consider that these women, while some might have fought, usually assisted their men in the siege. Later, the king was thrilled by the reports of women fighting and made something very strange, but very coherent with this chivalric character: make a knightly order for these women.

But it was more of an honorary badge. To start with, these women were not nobles, so they could not get into any military order. A military order is always an order of noble knight-monks. Sergeants and non-nobles are not really knights. These women of the Hatchett were also not knights (or knightesses. There's not even a femenine word for knight, for a reason).

What I do support is, besides what we commented on free slots for "honours" (a honorary knightly order like the Golden Fleece, a special nobility title, like Pair or Grandee, things with which to honour your trusted men, but which would cost honour and money, and would require a certain degree of centralization), that the heretics can go bananas and make woman bishops and woman spies and woman everything if they want.

So, imagine the Count of Foix, a Cathar, gets the county of Toulouse in 1180 and turns out he wins the war against the king of France, he accepts to pay homage to Aragon, the king of Aragon's child spends a lot of time in Foix and be becomes a Cathar. 1220, the King of Aragon is a Cathar and he's totally in it. He starts messing around with things, making the parfaits the powerful men of his realm and eventually refusing the Catholic church and keeping parfait bishops, men and women alike.

Bananas, I say.

But I'd be really excited to roleplay a king like him.

Damn, I want this to be possible

 

[1alexey]

FLEET BUGET?
FLEETS!!!
[video=youtube;P3ALwKeSEYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs[/video]

 

[RedRooster81]

So, imagine the Count of Foix, a Cathar, gets the county of Toulouse in 1180 and turns out he wins the war against the king of France, he accepts to pay homage to Aragon, the king of Aragon's child spends a lot of time in Foix and be becomes a Cathar. 1220, the King of Aragon is a Cathar and he's totally in it. He starts messing around with things, making the parfaits the powerful men of his realm and eventually refusing the Catholic church and keeping parfait bishops, men and women alike.

Bananas, I say.

But I'd be really excited to roleplay a king like him.

Damn, I want this to be possible

CK promotes somewhat ludicrous results anyway, so why not? A Cathar Aragon doesn't sound like such a far-out thing if you consider the previous two centuries of alternative history that you've already worked up. In 1066, the tiny kingdom of Aragon began forging close connections with the County of Toulouse to counter Sancho II of Castille's marriage with Agnes d'Aquitaine and in the coming years the bonds between Toulouse and Aragon continued to grow, after Sancho II, King of Leon, Castille, Valencia, Portugal, and Mauretania, Duke of Toledo, Seville, Granada, and Galicia, and Agnes I d'Aquitaine, Duchess of Aquitaine and Gascony, Countess of Poitou, spawned ten ambitious children in so many years who established a tenuous footprint from the Loire to the Sahara by 1130. Meanwhile, the House of Hauteville established supremacy over southern Italy and Sicily and through a good marriage Bohemond I FitzRobert, King of the Sicily and Africa, had joined with Gerberge I de Provence the fate of their two houses.

Wedged between an enormous Emperor of all the Spains (so did Sancho II call himself) and the Sicilian sea-king, the Joan III, King of Aragon tried to follow a middle path. The Cathars offered him a third way, between Sancho's unorthodox Mozarabic rite and Bohemond's much more orthodox Catholicism, which tolerated the faith of the tens of thousands of Muslims under his rule, but defended papal supremacy so long as it suited his policies. The pope had zero moral authority at the moment, so a Crusade was not a possibility, but maybe he should find some way to secure allies somewhere else before the Castilians and Sicilians divided his little realm between them. How's that work for a first AAR?

Dare to dream, Cesar, dare to dream, and laugh all the way.

 

[Infocalypse]

You've changed your avatar, Red, but not for the better

 

[RedRooster81]

You've changed your avatar, Red, but not for the better

What? Does the Lord Proprietor not suit me? I'm open to suggestions. There isn't a COA with a red chicken on it, so I kind of shift between Castille's arms and some other things.

But to keep things on thread, I think you posted a balanced view of how to work out gender relations in your former post. Leave it to the modders; if things develop with a mod so that females gain official equity with males among the nobility then so be it. Myself in CK1, I had a lot of capable daughters, so I could imagine some of them triumphing on the battlefield. I'm a guy lucky to be surrounded by strong women, so I guess I'm biased, but men needed to at least seem to be in charge, unless special circumstances dictate otherwise. I like the idea of a female regent commanding or, to repeat my more conservative idea from earlier, a female with good stats and self-assertive traits taking command defending a siege or if her husband or brother or father is struck down on the battlefield, where she can finish the campaign as a general.