Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

• Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
• Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
• Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
• Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
• Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
• Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.





Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[gigau]

Oh my, do those dev diairies look great... one year is a looooong time to wait for this kind of gem !

 

[the_hdk]

Think about a Westeros Mod for CKII ohh the possibilities (now able to have a Hand, 4th tier etc)

 

[VenetianPriest]

Will it be possible for a titleholder to be deposed? What about abdications?

BTW - Great DD!

 

[Captain Frakas]

Yes, but cognatic as it is used in CKII is not "absolute cognatic", but semi-salic. The word "Salic" is not appropriate to other areas of the world.

I am sorry, but I'm not sure to understand and I would like to have some precisions.

In the medieval times there where 3 considerations for succession law :

1. A male preference succession law where females should inherit when there is no more males. This is the most common succession law in the medieval era but wasn't implemented in CK1. This succession law is commonly named cognatic.
2. What CK1 named "semi-salic" which is the Plantagenêt interpretation of the salic law : only males can inherits, but female could grant to their sons rights to inherits. You say that the cognatic law of CK2 is "semi-salic".
3. What CK1 named salic which is the Valois interpretation of the salic law : only males can inherits, only males can grant to their sons rights to inherits.

Does the "cognatic law of CK2" si for the 1st or the 2nd case ?
Thanks in advance.

 

[unmerged(196243)]

Awesome dev diary, though the portrait of the adult wasn't beautiful. I can live with it, given I played CK.

 

[Camara]

Separate sucession laws for different titles. This is both historical and cool. Awesome. Also we sort of got the confirmation Republics and Theocracies are playable.

 

[VenetianPriest]

Question:

I am the king, I decide to grant one of my count titles to a courtier. Will the sucession law remain the same as before the transfer of title? Or does the king in this situation get to set the sucession law during the transfer? Naturally, the newly installed count will be able to change the sucession law, but will the King have the opportunity to respond if he doesn't like the change of laws?

 

[Duckett]

The interface looks very confusing, I will have some re-learning to do should I buy this!
The laws sound good, I imagine there will be more to learn about them than in Crusader Kings so I'll look forward to that. I'm a bit sceptical about the portraits though, I hope there will be a good deal of variation so we can identify characters on sight, the character we've already seen has very small features but hopefully he is an anomaly.

 

[Drachenfire]

Yes, but cognatic as it is used in CKII is not "absolute cognatic", but semi-salic. The word "Salic" is not appropriate to other areas of the world.



Well, no... I think the risk makes it more interesting. It's not necessarily game over, however; you will still keep your other titles. (I.e, your other titles will default to Primogeniture if another dynasty wins the election.)

Seems realistic considering the timeframe. Is it possible to mod in absolute cognatic inheiritance?


Fair enough. I look forward to seeing how this works in the game.

I am sorry, but I'm not sure to understand and I would like to have some precisions.

In the medieval times there where 3 considerations for succession law :

1. A male preference succession law where females should inherit when there is no more males. This is the most common succession law in the medieval era but wasn't implemented in CK1. This succession law is commonly named cognatic.
2. What CK1 named "semi-salic" which is the Plantagenêt interpretation of the salic law : only males can inherits, but female could grant to their sons rights to inherits. You say that the cognatic law of CK2 is "semi-salic".
3. What CK1 named salic which is the Valois interpretation of the salic law : only males can inherits, only males can grant to their sons rights to inherits.

Does the "cognatic law of CK2" si for the 1st or the 2nd case ?
Thanks in advance.

I'm sorry but I'm gravely dissapointed. Without an option for absolute cognatic I can't play the game. Sorry, good bye and good luck everyone! I hope you enjoy it!



I'm canceling my Paradox account now as there is absolutely no prospect for me to enjoy the game. ((edit: as it turns out there is no unenroll in the profile settings, so if an Admin could please simply ban me from the forums I would appreciate it! Thank you!))

 

[monsterfurby]

I'm sorry but I'm gravely dissapointed. Without an option for absolute cognatic I can't play the game. Sorry, good bye and good luck everyone! I hope you enjoy it!



I'm canceling my Paradox account now as there is absolutely no prospect for me to enjoy the game. ((edit: as it turns out there is no unenroll in the profile settings, so if an Admin could please simply ban me from the forums I would appreciate it! Thank you!))

Is there an ironic pop-culture reference in there I do not understand or is this really a child going "if you don't buy me an XBOX, I'm gonna cry all the way through Christmas service"?

Also: Looks great, once again. The differentiation into the two law categories should clean up some of the mess that was CK1...

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

Even assuming sarcasm, it's not that much better.

I don't know enough about medieval inheritance to know whether this can model the succession of the seventh count of Erehwon accurately, but it sure looks fun to play. I like the hints about interaction with the Pope or within the HRE, sounds like some interesting multiplayer setups for those in to such things. Keep up the good work

 

[TempestDK]

Great looking DD again ... seems that there will be lots if interesting opportunities in the laws department.

 

[RedRooster81]

Sounds greaaaat! Bring on a realistic elective HRE, complicated Scandinavian succession, and, of course, the fratricidal Turkish succession. Gavelkind as you propose to implement it might make, say 11th century Christian Iberia more manageable, all under the same realm. Also, some anti-blobbing measures could be included, if local notables favor belonging to a smaller realm. I am in favor of one super-realm for my ruling dynasty, so I like the oldest dynast inherits option.

I am also happy to see the apparent influence of Vicky2 and EU: Rome in game concepts and overall look. Except for colonization (maybe this will be implemented narrowly??--remember Venice, Crusader States, the Baltic), there could be some interesting long-term mods. I'm so excited!

 

[sortulv]

• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)

Say I'm the count of Bergen (in Norway), and I've sworn aliegiance to the king of sweden. Who are the electors?
How about for an independant duke?
And how is the elective process? Automatic (support the strongest?), or select an candidate?

 

[King]

I'm sorry but I'm gravely dissapointed. Without an option for absolute cognatic I can't play the game. Sorry, good bye and good luck everyone! I hope you enjoy it!



I'm canceling my Paradox account now as there is absolutely no prospect for me to enjoy the game. ((edit: as it turns out there is no unenroll in the profile settings, so if an Admin could please simply ban me from the forums I would appreciate it! Thank you!))

The customer is always right.

 

[Doomdark]

Say I'm the count of Bergen (in Norway), and I've sworn aliegiance to the king of sweden. Who are the electors?
How about for an independant duke?
And how is the elective process? Automatic (support the strongest?), or select an candidate?

Each vassal duke gets a vote, as does the current king. You nominate a candidate beforehand.

 

[Doomdark]

I am sorry, but I'm not sure to understand and I would like to have some precisions.

In the medieval times there where 3 considerations for succession law :

1. A male preference succession law where females should inherit when there is no more males. This is the most common succession law in the medieval era but wasn't implemented in CK1. This succession law is commonly named cognatic.
2. What CK1 named "semi-salic" which is the Plantagenêt interpretation of the salic law : only males can inherits, but female could grant to their sons rights to inherits. You say that the cognatic law of CK2 is "semi-salic".
3. What CK1 named salic which is the Valois interpretation of the salic law : only males can inherits, only males can grant to their sons rights to inherits.

Does the "cognatic law of CK2" si for the 1st or the 2nd case ?
Thanks in advance.

Cognatic as implemented means that females may inherit in the absence of eligible males. I suppose it should actually be called Agnatic-Cognatic Succession.

 

[Woody Man]

Cognatic as implemented means that females may inherit in the absence of eligible males. I suppose it should actually be called Agnatic-Cognatic Succession.

Cool Will we have de jure uxoris holdings?

 

[Alerias]

Wait Im confused. Why did someone insist on absolute cognatic primogeniture? This was not practiced by any monarchy before 1980!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture#cite_note-1

Wow some people are just weird. Thanks for this great DD.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

So, females can really inherit, and yet Drachenfire got self-banned for nothing...? That's like a Greek tragedy in which people always act as if they knew the whole big picture, but they're always missing some important point (like: your girl isn't dead / you married your mother / your father loves you...). En fi...

I love this feature, really. But I'm a little disappointed with the graphical aspect of the game. Those are my complains:

- Too flashy.
- Too "late middle ages" feeling. Those crowns on the shields, the dresstyle, etc...

I would suggest a bit of redesigning taking the XIII-XIVth Century illuminated manuscripts as lead of what should be the graphical aspect of the Middle Ages. Especially the famous Maciejowski Bible.