Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

• Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
• Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
• Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
• Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
• Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
• Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.





Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[Zzzzz...]

The Turkish succession sounds interesting! So basically, the sons will DUKE it out, battle ROYALE style, eh?

 

[Calgacus]

Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

The pope appointing bishops outside Italy is very rare to unheard of until the later 13th century. Bishops are usually elected by the cathedral canons, and even those "appointed" by the king/overlord usually have to make some pretence of being elected by the canons (esp. after the 11th century). Even after the 13th century direct papal provisions to vacant sees usually occur as a response to local elections/crown nominations.

 

[Calgacus]

Yes, but not in Scandinavia proper. To be honest, it is just a nightmare for everyone involved. So, no, that system will not be supported.

Possibly, but in the period it originates, Scandinavia proper isn't well documented enough to know this either way (though some of the arrangements claimed for 10th century Norway in Heimskringla look like it).

Thanks for clarifying this though. At least you looked at it.

 

[Ruwaard]

It depends on the relative levels of his titles. If a "duke" level Doge inherits a kingdom, he will become a King and the republic will end. Otherwise, the FoG will remain republican.

So it isn't possible to keep a republic and county/duchy/kingdom separate? So that it would be possible that a family member can inherit the old family holdings*, but the republic will be able to elect a new doge. *= however if 'doge-duke' dies childless the republic will inherit. Something similar could apply to bishoprics, although if a bishop inherits his dynastic holdings, he might ask to resign as bishop and ask for dispensation from the pope to be allowed to marry?

 

[Ruwaard]

I like the flexibility in this system. Yet the possibility of female inheiritance does raise the family question. In CK1 children always belong to their fathers dynasty. That pretty much mean the end of every dynasty ruled by a woman.

I suggest that children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers. At least in the cases where the fathers title is lower than the mothers.

On the other hand a male marrying a female ruler should probably be able to usurp her title, if the nobility approves of him.

That is the way it works in CKII.

Will this be done automatically or can the player choose to which dynasty those children would belong?

 

[Tecnócrata]

The topbar icons are all placeholders, and represent Piety, Prestige, Gold and... something else.

Realm Duress as a value and not as trait. My bet.

 

[Zaki]

Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you).
...

Luxor the Moonprince is standing on the Plains of Moon (or something like that), looking north.

 

[the_hdk]

Luxor the Moonprince is standing on the Plains of Moon (or something like that), looking north.

I hope it's not Stability like in CKI. that was only usefull to get some easy money

 

[Drakken]

Very interesting. I love the concept of the law of the demesne vs the law of the realm.

Will there be benefits or disadvantages attached to the different succession laws, to counter-balance that some seem more secure and natural than others?

For instance, what would prevent most players to switch to primogeniture by default to prevent any future trouble and ensure a smooth transition? Why would a player keep, for instance, the Turkish style succession if one of the first thing any player would do is to switch to primogeniture as soon as possible to minimize risks of succession crisises.

Succession laws should be very hard and troublesome to switch. Even something like the Salic Law in France took the approval of the peers of the Realm in assembly to ratify, because everyone knew it would have a huge impact in the future.

 

[SAS]

This game looks better and better each DD.

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

• Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
• Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
• Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
• Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
• Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
• Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

Sorry if this has been asked. But, in terms of elective law, what happens to the kings dynasty if another dynasty is elected as king? Do they keep all the demense they hold? Do they only keep 1 ducal demense? Thanks for any answer.

edit: I kind of saw an answer from doomdark about this. You keep all other titles except the king title. I guess that's alright but I can see that messing up the map in terms of people holding provinces in kingdoms they don't rule anymore.

 

[Woody Man]

Sorry if this has been asked. But, in terms of elective law, what happens to the kings dynasty if another dynasty is elected as king? Do they keep all the demense they hold? Do they only keep 1 ducal demense? Thanks for any answer.

They'd lose the Kingdom, but keep their other titles if they're under primo.

 

[unmerged(54293)]

Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants.

As already mentioned, I don't think this privilege should be absolutely limited to kingdoms. The freedoms and rights of the subjects could vary distinctly within one and the same kingdom, after all. This was of course the result of a certain noble (in this case, ducal) autonomy.

Perhaps it could be made so that a weak king who wants to appease/bribe his dukes has the possibility to grant some of his authority to his vassals.

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

They'd lose the Kingdom, but keep their other titles if they're under primo.

Let's say I am King of France under primogeniture, but also King of the HRE under elective. Let's also say that I have several duke titles in germany and direct demense in Germany as well. Then let's say I die and my son loses the elction to be King of the HRE. I know that I'll keep my french title and all french possessions. Do I also keep my german duke titles? Do I keep my german duke demense? Because that would mean big swaths of germany would just not be in the HRE anymore. Or...i'm confusing myself.

 

[vanin]

Oh the possibilities that this offers, decisions/laws as developed in EU3 and Rome are truly great tools, nice seeing them incorporated into CK2 in full.

 

[jmberry]

Let's say I am King of France under primogeniture, but also King of the HRE under elective. Let's also say that I have several duke titles in germany and direct demense in Germany as well. Then let's say I die and my son loses the elction to be King of the HRE. I know that I'll keep my french title and all french possessions. Do I also keep my german duke titles? Do I keep my german duke demense? Because that would mean big swaths of germany would just not be in the HRE anymore. Or...i'm confusing myself.

From what I understand, your German titles would still be considered fiefs of the Holy Roman Emperor, but ruled by you if the succession laws for each individual title allowed it. This is confusing, but it's also what happened in real life several times.

 

[Tecnócrata]

Luxor the Moonprince is standing on the Plains of Moon (or something like that), looking north.

The Plains of Anviniel, it was. Tremendous game.

 

[Salik]

I might have missed this (probably did) but has it been announced that CKII will have a starting date before the Battle of Hastings? The date on the screen shot is October 1st 1066

 

[The Kingmaker]

I might have missed this (probably did) but has it been announced that CKII will have a starting date before the Battle of Hastings? The date on the screen shot is October 1st 1066

It's been mentioned that there's a September 1066 start, prior to Hastings, with Hardrada and William invading England and Harold trying to fight them off. Really shakes things up! (I love it!)

 

[Salik]

It's been mentioned that there's a September 1066 start, prior to Hastings, with Hardrada and William invading England and Harold trying to fight them off. Really shakes things up! (I love it!)

That's great news I love it too!