Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

  • Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
  • Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
  • Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
  • Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
  • Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
  • Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
  • Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.


Diary003_01.jpg


Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
Last edited:

Doomdark

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I like the sound of this very much. What sort of political gains are we talking about?

It gives prestige to have a large and powerful dynasty, but in this case that would not happen if they voted for his sons. So they would probably be better of voting for themselves. However, the nominee would of course like those who vote for him, etc.
 

The Kingmaker

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It gives prestige to have a large and powerful dynasty, but in this case that would not happen if they voted for his sons. So they would probably be better of voting for themselves. However, the nominee would of course like those who vote for him, etc.

So the Dukes would get in the good graces of their candidate if he wins... and a King who likes you is more likely to reward you with gifts of land, gold, courtly titles...?
 

unmerged(75409)

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Well, no... I think the risk makes it more interesting. It's not necessarily game over, however; you will still keep your other titles. (I.e, your other titles will default to Primogeniture if another dynasty wins the election.)

Hmmm that sure sounds like a nice thing :D

If my king dies, and his son loses the election, does he get a claim on the king title? Do other elective candidates get claims on the title? The HRE had a couple of wars over disputed elections, AFAIK...
 

unmerged(5822)

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One problem with Gavelkind in CKI was that the distribution of titles among heirs was completely random and the map ended up looking like a fruit salad. IMO, the titles inherited should rather tend to form contiguous areas.

Will the technical workings of Gavelkind be adjusted for CKII?
 

The Kingmaker

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I'd also like to add that I think the interface of this game looks very handsome. :) The little medieval touches like the nicks in the parchment or the gilded decoration on the edging... it all adds to the overall ambiance of the setting. I love it. I also like the new shields a lot. I can only hope the world map will be just as immersive.
 

Doomdark

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AWESOME. Cant say more. And cant wait until this game is out.

The only thing that already bores me are the portraits so far, all the guys i saw so far look rather boring and similar. We need bigger noses.;-)

There is only one "guy" at the moment, with some different hair styles. :)
 

Doomdark

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Hmmm that sure sounds like a nice thing :D

If my king dies, and his son loses the election, does he get a claim on the king title? Do other elective candidates get claims on the title? The HRE had a couple of wars over disputed elections, AFAIK...

Not automatically, but that will happen if there is a succession crisis.
 

Doomdark

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One problem with Gavelkind in CKI was that the distribution of titles among heirs was completely random and the map ended up looking like a fruit salad. IMO, the titles inherited should rather tend to form contiguous areas.

Will the technical workings of Gavelkind be adjusted for CKII?

Yes, none of the code is reused from CK at all.
 

Kriegsspieler

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Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

Doomie, you surely know that this kind of action could produce a negative response from the Pope, depending on when and where we're talking about. Can we hope there will be a bit of gameplay associated with attempts to override the Papal choice? :D
 

Harle

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Looks good!

It'd be nice if there were some fluidity to kingdom/demesne laws, though. So that laws could be either kingdom or demesne level, and not restricted to one or the other. The reason why is that sometimes when kingdoms got unruly, the king would grant new rights to their vassals in order to prevent a war. In the game this could just be a general loyalty boost to all vassals. Of course, this would mean less control(decentralization), and trying to take back those rights later would anger your vassals, making it a risky (but sometimes necessary) investment.

Different kingdoms tended to have varying degrees of centralization, so it'd be nice to have some elbow room there.
 

Doomdark

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Doomie, you surely know that this kind of action could produce a negative response from the Pope, depending on when and where we're talking about. Can we hope there will be a bit of gameplay associated with attempts to override the Papal choice? :D

Yes, obviously. :)
 

Davisx3m

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Same picture for children... I see!

BTW Awesome!
 

Hyzhenhok

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what is the Turkish Succession Law?

The DD describes it as a guaranteed succession crisis, which suggests its a reference to early Ottoman succession. These were successions where no son was designated heir; generally the first son to reach Constantinople and declare himself the successor would win, but he would have to eliminate all of his other brothers by force. Not so easy if your brother is the governor of a province, with the power base to build an army. Early Ottoman history has a succession crisis between nearly every monarch for this reason.

So in CK2, "Turkish Succession" is a vague succession law that essentially guarantees a succession crisis.
 

the_hdk

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The DD describes it as a guaranteed succession crisis, which suggests its a reference to early Ottoman succession. These were successions where no son was designated heir; generally the first son to reach Constantinople and declare himself the successor would win, but he would have to eliminate all of his other brothers by force. Not so easy if your brother is the governor of a province, with the power base to build an army. Early Ottoman history has a succession crisis between nearly every monarch for this reason.

So in CK2, "Turkish Succession" is a vague succession law that essentially guarantees a succession crisis.

Could be fun to use once you conquer 6 kingdoms :)