Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

  • Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
  • Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
  • Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
  • Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
  • Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
  • Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
  • Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.


Diary003_01.jpg


Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
Last edited:

th3freakie

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Question, as I've had this problem in DV:

If the Primogeniture-heir of a County/Duchy/Kingdom is already a Magistrate/Doge in a Republic, will the County/Duchy/Kingdom become part of the Republic?
 

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Sute]{h;11860415 said:
Nice. :)

Ohh and as far as I know cognatic and semi-salic isn't the same. Cognatic succession implies that females can inheirit. While semi-salic means that they can only do so, if there are no male heirs. So semi-salic law is cognatic, but cognatic law could be gender neutral as well.

As for elective law could this be limited to people within the same dynasty as the previous ruler? As far as I know that restriction is far from uncommon. It would also allow a player to choose an elective law without risking a random game over.

I don't think they'd risk game over, unless all their titles are under elective. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing different inheritance systems for different titles.
 

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Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

Since Doomdark seems to be answering questions, I'll ask directly... if a liege lord overrides the Pope's choice, will this affect relations with the Curia, potentially leading to the offending lord being placed under interdict or excommunicated? If the offending lord is the Holy Roman Emperor, could we potentially see an escalating conflict between him and the Pope? Most importantly of all: would a powerful lay lord be able to appoint an influential clerical character as Antipope if such a struggle with the reigning Pope were to break out?
 

Doomdark

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Question, as I've had this problem in DV:

If the Primogeniture-heir of a County/Duchy/Kingdom is already a Magistrate/Doge in a Republic, will the County/Duchy/Kingdom become part of the Republic?

It depends on the relative levels of his titles. If a "duke" level Doge inherits a kingdom, he will become a King and the republic will end. Otherwise, the FoG will remain republican.
 

SchwarzKatze

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Does "Turkish" means the most powerful son would seize the throne?

And about "children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers", what if the father is a 4th or 5th son of a duke and is landless and the mother is a count? Which family would those childrens be in?

If they belong to their mother's dynasty, what would hapen if their uncles(heirs to the duchy) all died without an heir and leaving their father as the heir? Would one kid "switch" to father's dynasty, be disqualified to inherit the duchy or they can while being in mother's dynasty(which leads to game over even with a bunch of male heirs)?
 

Doomdark

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Since Doomdark seems to be answering questions, I'll ask directly... if a liege lord overrides the Pope's choice, will this affect relations with the Curia, potentially leading to the offending lord being placed under interdict or excommunicated? If the offending lord is the Holy Roman Emperor, could we potentially see an escalating conflict between him and the Pope? Most importantly of all: would a powerful lay lord be able to appoint an influential clerical character as Antipope if such a struggle with the reigning Pope were to break out?

It is not yet time to talk about this, but we have ambitions along those lines. ;)
 

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So I take it there will be no place for the Scandinavian rota system? I.e. when there are kingdoms a, b, c and d in one kingroup, king of a dies, his oldest brother the king of b becomes king, c becomes b, d becomes c, and the next guy (another brother or son) d. This is the way succession happened in Rus, and in the Norse cities of Ireland.
 

th3freakie

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It depends on the relative levels of his titles. If a "duke" level Doge inherits a kingdom, he will become a King and the republic will end. Otherwise, the FoG will remain republican.
I see. Well it feels a bit unrealistic doesn't it? Duchies becoming Republics because their heir was already holding title in a Republic at the time of inheritance - effectively ending his dinasty in that particular fief in favour of random choice. But I guess a system that forced them to chose would be too complicated to code. And a system that made Doges "bastards" too unfair.
 

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Yes, but cognatic as it is used in CKII is not "absolute cognatic", but semi-salic. The word "Salic" is not appropriate to other areas of the world.
Seems realistic considering the timeframe. Is it possible to mod in absolute cognatic inheiritance?

Well, no... I think the risk makes it more interesting. It's not necessarily game over, however; you will still keep your other titles. (I.e, your other titles will default to Primogeniture if another dynasty wins the election.)
Fair enough. I look forward to seeing how this works in the game.
 

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Does "Turkish" means the most powerful son would seize the throne?

Yes, but all brothers will get a claim on his titles and might declare war in the succession crisis.

And about "children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers", what if the father is a 4th or 5th son of a duke and is landless and the mother is a count? Which family would those childrens be in?

If they belong to their mother's dynasty, what would hapen if their uncles(heirs to the duchy) all died without an heir and leaving their father as the heir? Would one kid "switch" to father's dynasty, be disqualified to inherit the duchy or they can while being in mother's dynasty(which leads to game over even with a bunch of male heirs)?

The game would not end in that case, but the dynasty would indeed change. Kind of a special case though.
 

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So I take it there will be no place for the Scandinavian rota system? I.e. when there are kingdoms a, b, c and d in one kingroup, king of a dies, his oldest brother the king of b becomes king, c becomes b, d becomes c, and the next guy (another brother or son) d. This is the way succession happened in Rus, and in the Norse cities of Ireland.

Yes, but not in Scandinavia proper. To be honest, it is just a nightmare for everyone involved. So, no, that system will not be supported.
 

The Kingmaker

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So in an elective monarchy, what determines the potential successors that the king and the dukes will nominate? I imagine the king will usually choose one of his own sons. But is there any rule about who the dukes can nominate? Will they ever nominate themselves? What makes a potential candidate for the throne "king-worthy?"
 

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So in an elective monarchy, what determines the potential successors that the king and the dukes will nominate? I imagine the king will usually choose one of his own sons. But is there any rule about who the dukes can nominate? Will they ever nominate themselves? What makes a potential candidate for the throne "king-worthy?"

The dukes and the sons of the king are the valid candidates.
 

The Kingmaker

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The dukes and the sons of the king are the valid candidates.

Thanks for the response!

So, speaking hypothetically, say King Harold of England is married to the sister of Earls Edwin and Morcar (ducal tier nobles)-- when he dies will they be more likely to vote for his son by their sister than his sons from a previous marriage? Or are they just as likely to put themselves forward as candidates? How is each individual duke's preference determined? His relationship with each of the king's sons vs. his own ambitions?
 

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Thanks for the response!

So, speaking hypothetically, say King Harold of England is married to the sister of Earls Edwin and Morcar (ducal tier nobles)-- when he dies will they be more likely to vote for his son by their sister than his sons from a previous marriage? Or are they just as likely to put themselves forward as candidates?

Well, if they were players you would have to ask them. :) The AI will mostly consider its personal opinion of the candidates, but of course also potential political gains.
 

The Kingmaker

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The AI will mostly consider its personal opinion of the candidates, but of course also potential political gains.

I like the sound of this very much. What sort of political gains are we talking about?
 

Kolonel

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Looking better and better. :)
I love the way this is shaping up. Keep it up!