Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 3 - Laws | Page 16

Orinsul · Jan 20, 2011

Hang on, so only Kingdoms will have seperate succession laws?
so the problem of the byzantine [or any other it just starts that way] elective annexing all elected duchies into the elected title will still be a problem in this future game of such promise?

yourworstnightm · Jan 20, 2011

Orinsul said:
Hang on, so only Kingdoms will have seperate succession laws?
so the problem of the byzantine [or any other it just starts that way] elective annexing all elected duchies into the elected title will still be a problem in this future game of such promise?

They have already stated elective law will be different in CK 2.

sagimine1 · Jan 20, 2011

I managed to read most of this thread, from the look of things it seems that if a woman want to rule or even do anything out of the stereotypical medieval ordinary they have to be part of something or a law.

My question is why not allow the modders to mod this situation to their liking without risking breaching the company policies like changing hex codes in the file or removed this area out of the hardcode system if it wouldn't be too much of bother to do so.

By now all of us who have known this forum for years, should known all too well eventually someone will mod this, mod that, and so forth. No need to be a patriarch freak or religious fanatic who sees that the opposite should be in the same hole they in actual historic. If this game is about history where we given the option to make changes that would chill to modern historian spine or put in disbelief. I say go all the way!!

Captain Frakas · Jan 20, 2011

It seem that there is now three gender related laws :
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2iht0np.jpg

1. Agnatic
2. Agnatic-cognatic
3. Cognatic

Does it is :
a1. Valois interpretation of the salic law (males can inherit, males can transmit claims)
a2. Plantagenet interpretation of the salic law (males can inherit, male and females can transmit claims)
a3. standard feudal law (males and females in absence of males can inherit and transmit claims).

or

b1. Valois interpretation of the salic law
b2. standard feudal law
b3. Drachenfels wishes (males and females can inherit and transmit, without gender preference) ?

I hope a points have a priority in development over the b. But I'm glad that the dev team added a new gender law.

DreadLindwyrm · Jan 21, 2011

sagimine1 said:
I managed to read most of this thread, from the look of things it seems that if a woman want to rule or even do anything out of the stereotypical medieval ordinary they have to be part of something or a law.

My question is why not allow the modders to mod this situation to their liking without risking breaching the company policies like changing hex codes in the file or removed this area out of the hardcode system if it wouldn't be too much of bother to do so.

By now all of us who have known this forum for years, should known all too well eventually someone will mod this, mod that, and so forth. No need to be a patriarch freak or religious fanatic who sees that the opposite should be in the same hole they in actual historic. If this game is about history where we given the option to make changes that would chill to modern historian spine or put in disbelief. I say go all the way!!

I don't fully understand this last paragraph? "who sees that the opposite should be in the same hole they in actual historic." This is the bit I really have trouble understanding quite what you mean.

Well, the game is meant to reflect the situation in Europe from the middle of the XIth century. At this point Kings, Dukes and what have you were generally expected to be military leaders. Combine this with the fact that women were in general not seen as being capable of this, and having the jobs of raising the family and running the household, and most women would be seen as disqualified from the position of war leader. Now, if there are laws available to change this to give equal succession rights, then so be it. Just don't expect the queen/duchess to be allowed to lead the army. Also, don't expect other countries to respect this "equality" idea of yours, after all Europe of the period tries to live by patriarchal law, with biblical support relating to women submitting to men in all things, the man being head of household and such.

You also partially answer yourself here "If a woman want to [sic]... ...do anything out of the stereotypical medieval ordinary" then of course as far as ruling an area goes, the customary, medieval ordinary laws preventing this need to be changed in game. The laws may be there, they may not. It depends exactly what you are looking for with the laws as well.

Are you looking for:

1) Women to be able to inherit if there are no eligible males in their generation (i.e. no brothers)
2) Women to be able to inherit if they are the oldest living member of their generation (i.e. no older brothers)
3) Women to inherit in preference to their brothers (i.e. a man can only inherit if there are no sisters)
4) Women cannot themselves inherit, but in the event of their brother dying without children, their son can inherit under 1) or 2)

All of these are quite different, and 1) and 4) based on 1) are likely medieval solutions; 2) and 4) based on 2) are less likely, but I could potentially see becoming available towards the end of the game with a very liberal law set and the right situation; 3) would be seen as suicidal for the dynasty.

From the point of view of the game, either you need someway to make an heiress's husband or children take her name, without extinguishing his line, or you need the game to let you continue playing with a change of dynasty name.

Orinsul · Jan 21, 2011

i think women being able to inherit IF they were chosen by their father [an event and/or decision] to succeed in the absence of a son and with the next male in line being one unpopular with the barons, with a high risk of civil war would be the way to go.

Ruwaard · Jan 21, 2011

DreadLindwyrm said:
I don't fully understand this last paragraph? "who sees that the opposite should be in the same hole they in actual historic." This is the bit I really have trouble understanding quite what you mean.

Well, the game is meant to reflect the situation in Europe from the middle of the XIth century. At this point Kings, Dukes and what have you were generally expected to be military leaders. Combine this with the fact that women were in general not seen as being capable of this, and having the jobs of raising the family and running the household, and most women would be seen as disqualified from the position of war leader. Now, if there are laws available to change this to give equal succession rights, then so be it. Just don't expect the queen/duchess to be allowed to lead the army. Also, don't expect other countries to respect this "equality" idea of yours, after all Europe of the period tries to live by patriarchal law, with biblical support relating to women submitting to men in all things, the man being head of household and such.

You also partially answer yourself here "If a woman want to [sic]... ...do anything out of the stereotypical medieval ordinary" then of course as far as ruling an area goes, the customary, medieval ordinary laws preventing this need to be changed in game. The laws may be there, they may not. It depends exactly what you are looking for with the laws as well.

Are you looking for:

1) Women to be able to inherit if there are no eligible males in their generation (i.e. no brothers)
2) Women to be able to inherit if they are the oldest living member of their generation (i.e. no older brothers)
3) Women to inherit in preference to their brothers (i.e. a man can only inherit if there are no sisters)
4) Women cannot themselves inherit, but in the event of their brother dying without children, their son can inherit under 1) or 2)

All of these are quite different, and 1) and 4) based on 1) are likely medieval solutions; 2) and 4) based on 2) are less likely, but I could potentially see becoming available towards the end of the game with a very liberal law set and the right situation; 3) would be seen as suicidal for the dynasty.

From the point of view of the game, either you need someway to make an heiress's husband or children take her name, without extinguishing his line, or you need the game to let you continue playing with a change of dynasty name.

I see 2 and 3 only happening if all her brothers are either bastards, which might later be legitimized by a later marriage of their parents; or alternatively her brothers are from a later less prestigious marriage, for instance a ruler marrying his mistress. Off course this wasn't an issue during the early part of the game, but these legitimately issues could arise towards the end of the timeframe of the game.

DreadLindwyrm · Jan 21, 2011

Captain Frakas said:
It seem that there is now three gender related laws :
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2iht0np.jpg

1. Agnatic
2. Agnatic-cognatic
3. Cognatic

Does it is :
a1. Valois interpretation of the salic law (males can inherit, males can transmit claims)
a2. Plantagenet interpretation of the salic law (males can inherit, male and females can transmit claims)
a3. standard feudal law (males and females in absence of males can inherit and transmit claims).

or

b1. Valois interpretation of the salic law
b2. standard feudal law
b3. Drachenfels wishes (males and females can inherit and transmit, without gender preference) ?

I hope a points have a priority in development over the b. But I'm glad that the dev team added a new gender law.

I think b3 might be covered by primogeniture. Although I do seem to remember seeing earlier in the thread that some of the laws could be combined, so you could have agnatic primogeniture, agnatic-cognatic primogeniture or cognatic primogeniture for example. (Presumably eldest son inherits; eldest son inherits unless there are no sons, in which case the eldest daughter inherits; eldest child regardless of gender inherits).
You'd effectively break the inheritance laws if this is correct into two groups:
Gender based (agnatic/agnatic-cognatic/cognatic)
Method of succession (Elective/Gavelkind/Primogeniture/Seniority)

I've dealt with the gender based ones above, so method of selection would be, with eligibility determined as per the gender based set: an election to the title in question, which could have different results for different titles you hold, due to different electing bodies (e.g. Dukes of England as opposed to Counts of the Duchy of York as opposed to Barons of the County of Rutland); breaking up your held titles with them going to your heirs in order of preference (e.g. first heir gets King of England, second heir gets Duke of York, third heir gets Count of Rutland; fourth heir gets nothing, as for some reason the example only holds those three titles); your primary heir is your oldest qualified child; and finally, your heir is the oldest (or most senior in terms of proximity to the dynasty founder?) qualified person. This is of course complicated by the fact that different titles can be held under different laws.

DreadLindwyrm · Jan 21, 2011

Ruwaard said:
I see 2 and 3 only happening if all her brothers are either bastards, which might later be legitimized by a later marriage of their parents; or alternatively her brothers are from a later less prestigious marriage, for instance a ruler marrying his mistress. Off course this wasn't an issue during the early part of the game, but these legitimately issues could arise towards the end of the timeframe of the game.

Fair points. I wasn't seriously expecting 3 to be an option to be honest - it makes no sense to my view of the medieval mind, which is that a ruler should be allowed to bear arms and defend his lands and subjects himself. As far as 2 goes, it is a possible situation, and the one that happened in some countries (mostly the non-Salic ones), but in some you would then look for brothers of the previous king, or indeed start looking at electing a new king from the nobles, including any bastards of the previous king who had been acknowledged and ennobled. I suppose you could have fun with the situation of an only (legitimate) daughter and her bastard brothers arguing over who should have the throne, with her uncle getting involved as well. Roll on the civil war!

sagimine1 · Jan 23, 2011

DreadLindwyrm said:
I don't fully understand this last paragraph? "who sees that the opposite should be in the same hole they in actual historic." This is the bit I really have trouble understanding quite what you mean.

Well, the game is meant to reflect the situation in Europe from the middle of the XIth century. At this point Kings, Dukes and what have you were generally expected to be military leaders. Combine this with the fact that women were in general not seen as being capable of this, and having the jobs of raising the family and running the household, and most women would be seen as disqualified from the position of war leader. Now, if there are laws available to change this to give equal succession rights, then so be it. Just don't expect the queen/duchess to be allowed to lead the army. Also, don't expect other countries to respect this "equality" idea of yours, after all Europe of the period tries to live by patriarchal law, with biblical support relating to women submitting to men in all things, the man being head of household and such.

You also partially answer yourself here "If a woman want to [sic]... ...do anything out of the stereotypical medieval ordinary" then of course as far as ruling an area goes, the customary, medieval ordinary laws preventing this need to be changed in game. The laws may be there, they may not. It depends exactly what you are looking for with the laws as well.

Are you looking for:

1) Women to be able to inherit if there are no eligible males in their generation (i.e. no brothers)
2) Women to be able to inherit if they are the oldest living member of their generation (i.e. no older brothers)
3) Women to inherit in preference to their brothers (i.e. a man can only inherit if there are no sisters)
4) Women cannot themselves inherit, but in the event of their brother dying without children, their son can inherit under 1) or 2)

All of these are quite different, and 1) and 4) based on 1) are likely medieval solutions; 2) and 4) based on 2) are less likely, but I could potentially see becoming available towards the end of the game with a very liberal law set and the right situation; 3) would be seen as suicidal for the dynasty.

From the point of view of the game, either you need someway to make an heiress's husband or children take her name, without extinguishing his line, or you need the game to let you continue playing with a change of dynasty name.

As you said yourself that we wouldn't expected a lady to lead an army onto the battlefield. I find it funny how you quickly bring the bible when in the course of history any religious teaching or philosophy have always been misguided or severely misinterpreted. Thus that Argument can be easily challenge, yes the majority were submissive either through teaching or by force but can you really generalize all of women at the time with the same expectation?

I see you bring another interesting case which have to deal with the dynasty name and such. While playing CK from time to time I found it odd that the game would always choose the father culture as if the child would accept it as their culture. Weren't there cases where the son would undo their fathers' or mothers' have sowed?

As for the last paragraph of my previous statement, I meant to say that were would harm done if a female is put on the same pedestal as the male counterpart. Not necessarily on the field and such rather armchair position such a Marshall or any position that is male oriented. Like I stated before there is couple of mods that allowed women to have the same foothold as men but the battlefield and such were restricted which I did not mind.

Orinsul · Jan 23, 2011

on the interview video thingy wasn't it confirmed that woman can inherit but with consequences of the next in line boys begin seriously miffed about it?
as someone who primarily wants women to be able to inherit so the Anarchy can happen [only as the player i can have matilda/maud win and create an england with the normans adopting the old saxon rights], is what matters,

Women should be able to inherit, but only in exceptional circumstances. Because the game is about a continuing dynasty, as as dynasty is passed from the father to son, female inheritance as a rule just wouldn't be fun.
If you have no sons, then let a girl have the hat, but expect her cousins to come after it.

RedRooster81 · Jan 23, 2011

Female inheritance & local considerations

I read the exchange here, and I say that the role of women depended on the local political culture and traditions. Kingdoms should adhere to these traditions, and there should be dire consequences for changing succession laws and other basic laws of the realm. For instance, the succession laws of Castille were in part under the influence of the Berber traditions of the Almoravid dynasty as well as the Visigothic traditions that also influenced Aquitaine and nearby states like Toulouse and Provence, where male-preference primogeniture was the rule of the day. The Berbers IIRC allowed the eldest son of the eldest daughter to inherit, and the Basques had their own absolute primogeniture laws. So i would say Occitania, Iberia, and the Maghreb had different traditions that set up the ascent of powerful females like the famous Isabel I the Catholic.

That said, if we look at Isabel, she did not go into battle herself. She made her husband Ferran II of Aragon (Fernando the Catholic) defender of her kingdom (i.e., marshal), so this might be one consideration for CK2. She ruled in her own right, and he ruled his ancestral lands in his own. So maybe it should be possible to have the queen regnant's husband, even if he were a king in his own right, appointed to her council. Under different laws, as under the Plantagenets, the king could rule in the right of his wife (as Henry II did with Eleanor's ancestral lands), maybe with an event for the king to usurp his wife's land, force her into vassalage of some kind, or let her rule, with a military alliance between them.

Another thing that has bugged me with CK1 is that newlyweds and the children were always patrilocal (that is, living with the husband/father an/or his family), whereas in some cultures the opposite was true, or in Isabel's case she kept her children in Toledo and so taught her daughters how to be a wife and ruler. I can not read Catherine of Aragon's letters to Henry VIII while she acted queen regent in England without thinking of her mother's own assertiveness. As he fought to retain Calais, she reported with pride that she had meanwhile defeated the Scots.

DreadLindwyrm · Jan 23, 2011

sagimine1 said:
As you said yourself that we wouldn't expected a lady to lead an army onto the battlefield. I find it funny how you quickly bring the bible when in the course of history any religious teaching or philosophy have always been misguided or severely misinterpreted. Thus that Argument can be easily challenge, yes the majority were submissive either through teaching or by force but can you really generalize all of women at the time with the same expectation?

The core of a king at the beginning of the period, as a hang over from more tribal times, was to be able to defend his lands if attacked. This would involve going to battle, and women were not expected to do so. As such there would be reservations about crowning a king, when a brother, cousin or uncle could take the throne instead. It had in fact been used as an excuse to stop a minor from inheriting. As for the religious reference, I was referring to their motivations and justifications, not mine. They saw women as someone to protect and cherish (if they were progressive) or too weak to defend themselves and their property (if they were not). Either way, they saw the advice that a woman should obey her male relatives, and that they should protect her as absolute.

sagimine1 said:
I see you bring another interesting case which have to deal with the dynasty name and such. While playing CK from time to time I found it odd that the game would always choose the father culture as if the child would accept it as their culture. Weren't there cases where the son would undo their fathers' or mothers' have sowed?

This could be dealt with by letting the culture shift to the regional norm, to the dominant court culture, or to let it change by event/decision to one of these, or to a wider version of the held culture, or to a variant, blended culture.

sagimine1 said:
As for the last paragraph of my previous statement, I meant to say that were would harm done if a female is put on the same pedestal as the male counterpart. Not necessarily on the field and such rather armchair position such a Marshall or any position that is male oriented. Like I stated before there is couple of mods that allowed women to have the same foothold as men but the battlefield and such were restricted which I did not mind.

Women can hold any of the non-martial, non-religious positions without too much controversy. I am only saying that by the justifications of the era, women should be disfavoured for ruling positions and marshal, as these have as part of their expected duties going to war. They should be disfavoured or banned from bishop/lord spiritual/religious leader as the faith bars women from such positions of leadership (- no women priests, arguements about whether they can be deacons etc.). In any case, women are not prevented from being put on a pedestal. For at least some, women were on a higher pedestal. As wife, mother, sister and daughter they were supposed to be loved, protected and cared for. In some cases this was abused, but so was acting as guardian for young men/boys. Women shared in some of the glory given to Mary, in her role as Mother of God, and as the period advanced the concept of courtly love developed along side chivalry.

sagimine1 · Jan 23, 2011

In a way you wouldn't have a problem with women on the same pedestal but it just not historical for you? Since views and opinion is somewhat different I request that company allow us to create mod or scenario without a thought of ever touching the hex codes(hardcore). Even myself is petrified just by looking at them!

Orinsul · Jan 23, 2011

id like a cheat/storytelling trait that forces inheritance no matter what
then it could be used to have daughter inherit, or a bastard or even a wife or close friend, hey the sixtenth son of an extremely busy king could if you wanted them too.
Just edit the save or have a custom event that only the ~window event cheat triggers, so that when it comes to it, if you really want to, you can do wahtever you like

RedRooster81 · Jan 23, 2011

Orinsul said:
id like a cheat/storytelling trait that forces inheritance no matter what
then it could be used to have daughter inherit, or a bastard or even a wife or close friend, hey the sixtenth son of an extremely busy king could if you wanted them too.
Just edit the save or have a custom event that only the ~window event cheat triggers, so that when it comes to it, if you really want to, you can do wahtever you like

Along the same lines, in one of the recent videos, Sweden is shown to have agnatic-cognatic election, which I assume means that you can put any of your children or vassals up for election (male or female). Apparently, there are going to be a lot of variations on a theme with succession laws if you look at the screenshots and videos.

Orinsul · Jan 24, 2011

having a way to break the succession law would be good, with running the serious risk of a succession crisis with most people siding against you. But you should have a way to go against the law and have an exception.

sagimine1 · Jan 24, 2011

Orinsul said:
id like a cheat/storytelling trait that forces inheritance no matter what
then it could be used to have daughter inherit, or a bastard or even a wife or close friend, hey the sixtenth son of an extremely busy king could if you wanted them too.
Just edit the save or have a custom event that only the ~window event cheat triggers, so that when it comes to it, if you really want to, you can do wahtever you like

My first thought was sarcasm across the board but then again you might be up to something.

RedRooster81 · Jan 24, 2011

Orinsul said:
having a way to break the succession law would be good, with running the serious risk of a succession crisis with most people siding against you. But you should have a way to go against the law and have an exception.

Historically, that sort of thing has not brought good things to kingdoms. Putting aside Salic law started the Carlist Wars in Spain, but there was of course more to that conflict than whether the king's brother or his very young daughter inherited. You can simply change the law if you meet the requirements, as in EU Rome, but watch out for the consequences. There should be less of a backlash if you got the approval of the estates-general (if such an institution is represented in the game) or the major magnates of the realm. Even with that, expect some plotting.

Orinsul · Jan 24, 2011

exactly! and the not good things to kingdoms is what makes the game fun! if everything went well all the time itd be dead boring.
you should be able to break or circumvent the law without changing, to someone who none of the laws would support but the king or you the player like, or just for the story of it.
changing the law has requirements and is a big thing, just ignoring it would be alot better, and a cheat event added trait would be perfect for that.
The war of the roses and the anarchy both come not from the succession law, but ignoring it in special circumstances. So having a way for the player to break the rules in order to have terrible things happen to him but get the story going the way you want it, would be brilliant and have alot more possibilities than just law switching

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