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* CKII: Charlemagne Developer Diaries will be released weekly on Wednesdays from now on up to release! *

Welcome to the Charlemagne dev diaries - and above all, welcome to the 8th century!

I'm Tobias Bodlund, scripter on the Crusader Kings II team, and in this first installment of the dev diaries for CKII: Charlemagne I will be talking about the new 769 start date and how we've chosen to represent that historical period in the game.

We've added a bunch of new cultures to the game. A few of these could arguably have been present in The Old Gods already, but going back to 769 we felt we really needed to shake up the map to properly represent the changing cultural landscape of the Early Middle Ages.

sw_eur_cult.png

In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to. In northwestern Iberia we also still have the Suebi, an old Germanic people. They have their own culture shift events which may see the rise of Portuguese culture.

Looking north, we have the Franks. They are still Germanic but becoming more and more latinized. You will see them slowly turning into something we call "French"...

Other new cultures you will find are Saxons, Lombards, Picts and Somali. Also, there are no Russians yet, but instead various East Slavic peoples such as the Ilmenians, Severians and Volhynians.

We've revisited cultural dynamics in some other places as well. For example, the emergence of Norman culture is now somewhat more likely than before.

Regarding religion, the old Norse religion in the game is now referred to as Germanic. We decided to do this because with the earlier start date this religion exists well beyond Norse lands (specifically, the Saxons), and the old name also sometimes caused players to confuse it with Norse culture.

Moving further south, the Ibadi faith is now its own religion and no longer a Sunni heresy.

We've also added a new pagan religion, available only in the Charlemagne start. They are the followers of the sun-god Zun, which was historically the Zunbil dynasty in Afghanistan. They start out surrounded by Muslims and Buddhists, and this should provide an interesting and possibly quite difficult start, comparable to the Jewish starts.

And where are the Jews in 769, you ask now - you will find them in Semien in Ethiopia (sometimes referred to as Beta Israel).

religion_map_persia.png

Oh, speaking of the Norse, yes... with the new start date the Viking Age hasn't begun yet. This means that the Norse will initially not be able to launch Viking expeditions overseas. This will change the early game for them as they'll need to focus more on local affairs initially. Don't worry, though, a few decades in things will start happening for them and the continent will properly learn to fear the wrath of the Northmen.

Finally, let's look at some of the large empires in the 8th century:

In 769, the Byzantine Empire is embroiled in what historians call the "First Iconoclasm". This basically means that the emperor and patriarch (and most of the elite) follow the Iconoclast faith, where religious icons are condemned as idolatry much like in Islam. There is a choice for the emperor to either stick with Iconoclasm or renounce it (via a special decision).

Meanwhile, the Abbasids are the great blob of the 8th century. During this time, they historically ruled an area from the Indus in the east to the Maghreb in the west. Though "rule" is perhaps a misleading word in some cases. To reflect the fact that in reality they had limited control over many of their nominal vassals, we have made some of these areas independent in the game. But the Caliph still has plenty of de jure CBs and claims on those areas, so beware...

In Spain, Umayyad rule is fairly recently established, so you have an Arab Muslim dynasty ruling over mainly Visigothic Christian subjects.

europe_map.png

Then there is the Frankish Empire. After Pepin died, his sons Charlemagne and Carloman inherited a kind of joint kingship over the Franks, with each of them ruling directly over a portion of the kingdom. In the game, this means the two brothers each have a king title but also a claim on the other's title. With powerful neighbors such as the Lombards, the Umayyads and the pagan Saxons, things may get very interesting here.

As you can see, the world in 769 is quite different from later starts, with many period-defining events still to unfold. Things such as the Holy Roman Empire (yes, you can found it), Vikings, Normans and Russians are still unheard of. There aren't even that many Karlings yet (!).

The 8th century is a strange and wonderful place. We hope that you'll enjoy it.
 

WeissRaben

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Italy is still wrong. Desiderius "reconquered much of what he had lost" in the sense that he reined in Benevento and Spoleto; Pope Stephen III liked him quite a bit, it would have been stupid to launch an expedition when the Pope was considering the idea of Desiderius becoming his suzerain, and the king knew it. As said in another thread, Italy should look like this:

4pbvPFp.png


With the mentioned problem of Spoleto HAVING to fall into Papal borders to reflect the land strip that cut Italy into two (and annoyed Aistulf to no end).
 

Apeiron

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Well... I can't wait! :)
Besides the arguments on south Slavs, Copts and so on... what about Visigoths? Yeah, it was a whole tribe migration, but still...I suggest that the number of germanic people in Hispania would have been no more than 500.000. Ok, the ruling party, nobility...maybe one or two provincies...but such as in the picture, this is too much! What about the "hispanic (=romanian)" culture which becomes castilian, catalan etv. after an event as in case norse -> swedish, norwegian, danish ??? But I am not mad, it was just an advice :) To the others...this was the first dev diary, it can all change I suppose...I hope so :-D
 

Jokolytic

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Finally, a dev diary!

Hopefully the historical errors will be sorted out in the weeks.
 

Korashy

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- The same thing that prevents it now (nothing.
- Would you really want to remove from them a CB that every pagan ruler gets?

I think that will make the norse vikings less of a threat. The second all three kingdoms form, they usually spend the rest of the next 2 centuries fighting over X claim to Y over and over again instead of going to burn and pillage.
 

lukas1624

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Great job !
 

Jokolytic

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Do you think we will get any new face packs with this DLC?

Can we see what Ibadi and Zunist icons look like?
 

Kljunas

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Well... I can't wait! :)
Besides the arguments on south Slavs, Copts and so on... what about Visigoths? Yeah, it was a whole tribe migration, but still...I suggest that the number of germanic people in Hispania would have been no more than 500.000. Ok, the ruling party, nobility...maybe one or two provincies...but such as in the picture, this is too much! What about the "hispanic (=romanian)" culture which becomes castilian, catalan etv. after an event as in case norse -> swedish, norwegian, danish ??? But I am not mad, it was just an advice :) To the others...this was the first dev diary, it can all change I suppose...I hope so :-D

In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to.

.
 

IsadorBG

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Glad to see this Dev Diary! :)

I like others here, have a few remarks. First of all not all the Franks latinized, this happened to most of the Franks inside Neustria, but those within Austrasia remained Germanic. These Franks also need a culture shift. Germanic Frankish can roughly be split in two groups (made up of a variety of dialects), due to the fact that southern (and eastern) dialects were affected by the High German Consonant shift, but the northern (and western) dialects (Low Frankish) weren't (the ancestor of Dutch).
Still I do like how those Franks, which did latinize were handled.


@ Duarte: perhaps (seems likely to me) Suebi, like Visigothic is in the Iberian group?
So even in those provinces Frankish should probably shift to Dutch or become German.

Bah who cares about those Franks ? the important ones were the western Franks. :p :D
 

Jokolytic

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Italy is still wrong. Desiderius "reconquered much of what he had lost" in the sense that he reined in Benevento and Spoleto; Pope Stephen III liked him quite a bit, it would have been stupid to launch an expedition when the Pope was considering the idea of Desiderius becoming his suzerain, and the king knew it. As said in another thread, Italy should look like this:

4pbvPFp.png


With the mentioned problem of Spoleto HAVING to fall into Papal borders to reflect the land strip that cut Italy into two (and annoyed Aistulf to no end).

Yikes, that sounds like a nasty error, how did they miss that?
 

Andrzej I

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Well... I can't wait! :)
Besides the arguments on south Slavs, Copts and so on... what about Visigoths? Yeah, it was a whole tribe migration, but still...I suggest that the number of germanic people in Hispania would have been no more than 500.000. Ok, the ruling party, nobility...maybe one or two provincies...but such as in the picture, this is too much! What about the "hispanic (=romanian)" culture which becomes castilian, catalan etv. after an event as in case norse -> swedish, norwegian, danish ??? But I am not mad, it was just an advice :) To the others...this was the first dev diary, it can all change I suppose...I hope so :-D
Though I am intrigued with the Visigothic culture... I have to agree that it's likely best to not have it be covering all of Spain. It maybe shouldn't even exist. Though it's Wikipedia... the Liber Iudiciorum, written in the mid seventh century abolished the distinction of the remaining Roman subjects and the Goths, calling both 'Hispani', and by the eighth century, we're beginning to see less Germanic, more Spanish names. Having the Visigothic culture in is nice, but it shouldn't exist for more than a hundred years, which makes me question if it's worth having in, rather than just jumping to Castillian, etc.
 

Tufto

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Looking goodish, despite the many mentioned historical errors :p (though I'm sure these will be fixed, it's early days yet).

Iconoclasm decisions sound great, thanks for that- more Byzantine flavour never goes amiss :) the Ibadi being separate is good too.

Much more excited for this than I was to start with; lots of new steppe nations to play with too :).
 

billt568

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If the Ibadi are their own faith, the Yazidi should definitely be, or at least a Zoroastrian Heresy. Also, the livestream comments about the schism having "basically already happened" makes me deeply annoyed. Chalcedonian Christianity should be overarching, with events to cause a split.
 

Tufto

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If the Ibadi are their own faith, the Yazidi should definitely be, or at least a Zoroastrian Heresy. Also, the livestream comments about the schism having "basically already happened" makes me deeply annoyed. Chalcedonian Christianity should be overarching, with events to cause a split.

It had basically already happened. The split truly occurred in 726; after the Byzantines adopted Iconclasm, the two halves of the church were never really one, even after iconoclasm was abandoned; they actively competed against one another for conversions and had two distinct authority systems (patriarchy/papal primacy vs papal supremacy), even if they were technically not split at that point. But, to be honest, it's impossible to pinpoint a precise date for the schism; we only use 1054 because Gibbon used it, and he got practically everything wrong.

Some kind of events or mechanics representing the fact that they technically were still one could be added, but it's not vital and I'd be very cross if they merged the two Christianities, which would be utterly ridiculous at this point.
 

billt568

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It had basically already happened. The split truly occurred in 726; after the Byzantines adopted Iconclasm, the two halves of the church were never really one, even after iconoclasm was abandoned; they actively competed against one another for conversions and had two distinct authority systems (patriarchy/papal primacy vs papal supremacy), even if they were technically not split at that point. But, to be honest, it's impossible to pinpoint a precise date for the schism; we only use 1054 because Gibbon used it, and he got practically everything wrong.

Some kind of events or mechanics representing the fact that they technically were still one could be added, but it's not vital and I'd be very cross if they merged the two Christianities, which would be utterly ridiculous at this point.

How about Iconoclasts as at least a Catholic heresy which later splits by event. Iconoclasm doesnt really represent medieval orthodoxy, nor really the underlying power struggles between byzantium and rome
 

Kljunas

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It had basically already happened. The split truly occurred in 726; after the Byzantines adopted Iconclasm, the two halves of the church were never really one, even after iconoclasm was abandoned; they actively competed against one another for conversions and had two distinct authority systems (patriarchy/papal primacy vs papal supremacy), even if they were technically not split at that point. But, to be honest, it's impossible to pinpoint a precise date for the schism; we only use 1054 because Gibbon used it, and he got practically everything wrong.

Some kind of events or mechanics representing the fact that they technically were still one could be added, but it's not vital and I'd be very cross if they merged the two Christianities, which would be utterly ridiculous at this point.

I don't think it would be ridiculous since the Eastern Empire would still be distinct from the west (by being Iconoclast).
 

duhsveti

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If you guys sort out your history, then this is a buy. Please do something with the Visigoths, cause thats just horrible.