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* CKII: Charlemagne Developer Diaries will be released weekly on Wednesdays from now on up to release! *

Welcome to the Charlemagne dev diaries - and above all, welcome to the 8th century!

I'm Tobias Bodlund, scripter on the Crusader Kings II team, and in this first installment of the dev diaries for CKII: Charlemagne I will be talking about the new 769 start date and how we've chosen to represent that historical period in the game.

We've added a bunch of new cultures to the game. A few of these could arguably have been present in The Old Gods already, but going back to 769 we felt we really needed to shake up the map to properly represent the changing cultural landscape of the Early Middle Ages.

sw_eur_cult.png

In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to. In northwestern Iberia we also still have the Suebi, an old Germanic people. They have their own culture shift events which may see the rise of Portuguese culture.

Looking north, we have the Franks. They are still Germanic but becoming more and more latinized. You will see them slowly turning into something we call "French"...

Other new cultures you will find are Saxons, Lombards, Picts and Somali. Also, there are no Russians yet, but instead various East Slavic peoples such as the Ilmenians, Severians and Volhynians.

We've revisited cultural dynamics in some other places as well. For example, the emergence of Norman culture is now somewhat more likely than before.

Regarding religion, the old Norse religion in the game is now referred to as Germanic. We decided to do this because with the earlier start date this religion exists well beyond Norse lands (specifically, the Saxons), and the old name also sometimes caused players to confuse it with Norse culture.

Moving further south, the Ibadi faith is now its own religion and no longer a Sunni heresy.

We've also added a new pagan religion, available only in the Charlemagne start. They are the followers of the sun-god Zun, which was historically the Zunbil dynasty in Afghanistan. They start out surrounded by Muslims and Buddhists, and this should provide an interesting and possibly quite difficult start, comparable to the Jewish starts.

And where are the Jews in 769, you ask now - you will find them in Semien in Ethiopia (sometimes referred to as Beta Israel).

religion_map_persia.png

Oh, speaking of the Norse, yes... with the new start date the Viking Age hasn't begun yet. This means that the Norse will initially not be able to launch Viking expeditions overseas. This will change the early game for them as they'll need to focus more on local affairs initially. Don't worry, though, a few decades in things will start happening for them and the continent will properly learn to fear the wrath of the Northmen.

Finally, let's look at some of the large empires in the 8th century:

In 769, the Byzantine Empire is embroiled in what historians call the "First Iconoclasm". This basically means that the emperor and patriarch (and most of the elite) follow the Iconoclast faith, where religious icons are condemned as idolatry much like in Islam. There is a choice for the emperor to either stick with Iconoclasm or renounce it (via a special decision).

Meanwhile, the Abbasids are the great blob of the 8th century. During this time, they historically ruled an area from the Indus in the east to the Maghreb in the west. Though "rule" is perhaps a misleading word in some cases. To reflect the fact that in reality they had limited control over many of their nominal vassals, we have made some of these areas independent in the game. But the Caliph still has plenty of de jure CBs and claims on those areas, so beware...

In Spain, Umayyad rule is fairly recently established, so you have an Arab Muslim dynasty ruling over mainly Visigothic Christian subjects.

europe_map.png

Then there is the Frankish Empire. After Pepin died, his sons Charlemagne and Carloman inherited a kind of joint kingship over the Franks, with each of them ruling directly over a portion of the kingdom. In the game, this means the two brothers each have a king title but also a claim on the other's title. With powerful neighbors such as the Lombards, the Umayyads and the pagan Saxons, things may get very interesting here.

As you can see, the world in 769 is quite different from later starts, with many period-defining events still to unfold. Things such as the Holy Roman Empire (yes, you can found it), Vikings, Normans and Russians are still unheard of. There aren't even that many Karlings yet (!).

The 8th century is a strange and wonderful place. We hope that you'll enjoy it.
 

Ezumiyr

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There is a lot to say here but here is what I think was not already said by others:

1- "The Vikings age has not begun": Well, only 10 years before the first known Viking raid in England. But there are clues of earlier raids, especially in the east. Archaeologically the Vikings era had already begun in 769.


2- And why the Zuns and no other pagans? It looks like "lol we gotta make a new fun religion to play, players love challenge". Come on. There are plenty of things to do before making a one or two province religion. We are not even well documented about them!


As usual, the mods will take care of historicity, thanks to them. But I'm still interested by the new dynamic empires and chronichles.
 

Rationalsanity

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There is a lot to say here but here is what I think was not already said by others:

1- "The Vikings age has not begun": Well, only 10 years before the first known Viking raid in England. But there are clues of earlier raids, especially in the east. Archaeologically the Vikings era had already begun in 769

Minor raids, not full scale Prepared Invasions and the like. That's still a few decades off.
 

Thure

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1- "The Vikings age has not begun": Well, only 10 years before the first known Viking raid in England. But there are clues of earlier raids, especially in the east. Archaeologically the Vikings era had already begun in 769.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age

"The Viking Age is the period from 793 AD to 1066 AD in European history, especially Northern European and Scandinavian history, following the Germanic Iron Age."
 

Zolotaya

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Indeed. In game it is called "autonomous vassals" not independent. Or can you explain to me how the king of France in 1066 had more autorithy than the Abassids post Samarra anarchy ?

The mechanics and systems as they are implemented are not able to replicate the reality of the Abbasids without compromise. The difference is that in theory, the French autonomous vassals acknowledged the king's authority. Norman independence in the 1066 start is a prime example of where the autonomous vassal model breaks down. The usurpers of the Caliphate's authority were just like Normandy in this start. In game terms they were de facto independent and it is best that they are portrayed this way.

Edit: Another way of thinking of this issue - In both the Norman/French 1066 situation and the Abbasid 769 and 867 situation, the local dynasties were progressing from autonomous dynasties to separatist dynasties. In the 769 start your original position is more valid (as already acknowledged) but by 867 these various dynasties should be independent without a doubt. In fact, I believe that the 867 Abbasid realm should be fractured even more than it is.



Yeah a huge nerf... . When I start in 1066 the HRE always go for a county in French Flanders because it's de jure HRE so much for railroading. (Of course they crush France with their doomstack).

Exactly! Flanders being a de jure part of the HRE influences the ai to expand in that direction. If we were to make Italy de jure of the HRE (Which, strictly speaking it should be) then we'd see the HRE conquering the entire Italian peninsula. So making it a separate de jure is indeed a huge nerf.
 
Last edited:

Ruwaard

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Come on now. It's started at least when the Franks settled in Gaul and converted to roman christianity. ;)

And what was there not to like ? A rich country, a big capital in the middle of the seine river, a great civilization and a head of religion devoted to the frankish cause. :D

If Anything it's surprising that the West Franks (and we all know West is Best :p) managed to remain German for so long despite their non segregrationist policies towards their roman subject unlike the others germans invaders.
Probably due to still controlling their homeland. But they finally decided to fully embrace civilisation. ;) :p

Civilisation? :confused::p More like the Belgian problem in a nutshell... Besides they stayed Germanic not German. Also I agree converting to Roman Christianity was a brilliant stroke. That in turn greatly helped
As for civilisation you're really selling the Franks short; in fact you're basically confirming a Flemish bias against French/Francophones (they look down upon our (Flemish* & Dutch (descending from (Germanic) Franks) culture.
I assume you meant different and not superior? :mellow:

(*= Flemish and Dutch aren't that separate, IMHO it's probably better to say Flemish and 'Netherlandic' are Dutch subcultures. )
 

CSAGeneral

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Looks great. I do wonder how the Germanic religion will evolve over time. When 'The Viking Age' event fires, will Norse Cultured religions become Norse religion, while the Saxon pagans remain Germanic?

The Germanic and Norse religions are practically the same thing; the main difference is that the gods have different names in Old Norse vs. Saxon or Old High German. That isn't a very big difference.
 

nkibilko

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The Germanic and Norse religions are practically the same thing; the main difference is that the gods have different names in Old Norse vs. Saxon or Old High German. That isn't a very big difference.

While that's true, i think there are many of us that are just used to the word "norse" now. For some reason i just "like" it more than "germanic", so i would like to see it change to norse if the german territories fall to other religions... probably wont happen but hey, im sayin it. Seeing as how it's almost always my primary religion, it's going to be very weird seeing my religious map mode.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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...., so i would like to see it change to norse if the german territories fall to other religions...

Religion isn't fixed to land. Don't mix 'germanic' with 'germany'.

------------------------------

Regarding people concerned about 'da dutch and too lazy to read the thread:
Franks in Frisia will indeed become Dutch instead.
 

That one guy

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So... When do we get the patch notes?
Also awesome job looks great can't wait to play
I do have 2 questions though
1.) can Saxon's sail up rivers
2.) adding any more new major rivers? Ie the Nile ect.
I recall some one saying they are a pain to add in but Ya know here's hopping
 

wolfing

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So... When do we get the patch notes?
Also awesome job looks great can't wait to play
I do have 2 questions though
1.) can Saxon's sail up rivers
2.) adding any more new major rivers? Ie the Nile ect.
I recall some one saying they are a pain to add in but Ya know here's hopping
patch notes? pfft, there are still several more dev diaries to go, so maybe in like 2 months.
 

Scotty the Scot

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You know what keeps occurring to me? Pictish names. Specifically, female Pictish names- there are a few male names recorded, but AFAIK nowhere in any source is there a single female Pictish name recorded. I guess you could try reconstructing them from Irish or Welsh or Old Celtic but seriously Paradox, how are you filling out that name list?

I get the feeling that they're going to get a lot of Scottish Gaelic names....Which is fair, as that's probably the closest thing to Pictish that can be found.
 

nkibilko

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Religion isn't fixed to land. Don't mix 'germanic' with 'germany'.

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Not to start petty crap, but dude, the name "Germany" comes from the GERMANIC peoples native to the area... so yeah, the words are synonymous. Nobody with even the most basic grasp of the english language could dispute that.
 

musti

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has jews somethin different specialities? something doing with finding homeland from itself, moving around different countries and build there something what jews doing (also templars, has they something same, like bank system?) i think jews could or could't (can can't) build somethin estates like we (church) if there province is some jew priest???
 

Guerillonist

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These chances look very good to me. I'm glad they will re-do the cultures for the Charlemange-DLC. "Dutch" e.g. really wouldn't fit this era ( honestly it did not even fit in the time of "Old Gods" ). I would like it if they would also take out "German" as a culture. Apperantly we already got "Saxon" now. They could split the rest of "German" e.g. into "bavarian" and "alemannic". "German" would then come into existence by mixing two of these three cultures. Similar to the process with which you get "English" out of "Anglo-Saxon"
 

Alexander XIII

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Trusting only that source is a really stupid idea, especially considering we have evidence that Cyril and Methodius made a pagan temple on Hum (note: far from the Narentines) into a Christian church.

Care to enlighten me what other sources should I use? Hum and Pagania were not far one from the other. They were neighboring countries.