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Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
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Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday!

Hi, Doomdark. Been a while. Yup, it wasn't bad. I finished my game as Trebizond in 1204, did another run as the Palailogoi of Monferrato from 1305 onward (spawned 10K troops from a single county thanks to Rulership focus), then the mighty House Warendorp 1241 (achieved -1800 in debt thanks to tower, garden and family dues) and then created a custom Nestorian feudal count in the Silk-Road province on the Malabar Coast in 769 (Venice is beggars. And I sometimes even have positive prestige. Mostly between marriages.)

Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way.

It's been ages now, but I actually liked the old system, even though I get much more efficiency with the new one. I liked the way you could focus ex-ante. It was natural, organic. Spending points ex-post just isn't as convincing. Earning is more exciting than spending (in real life too). And I liked the stars and half-stars. And the names. Like, 'Spiritual Art' or something, and piety not combined into one tech with prestige. 'Farming' also was more convincing than 'Castle Infrastructure'. I'm also not a bit fan of archers as LI and HA as generic cav. Swords, pikes and armour made things more interesting precisely because they crossed troop types and mixed things up a bit.

Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

It's not too late. I don't think at this point anybody with LoR would care. If there are still people without LoR. It's pretty much already a part of the base game by now anyway. I wonder how many people even know it's LoR and not patch matter.

Since you're reading this, I'd suggest converting retinues into something more like those private merc bands, without the ability to increase the numbers past several thousand (it's a retinue, after all, a tail) but with some other ways of investing gold and exploiting huge retinue base (better, hand-picked recruits, more expensive equipment etc.).

In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game.

Not always. I think that depends on the style. There are sufficient ways to implode an empire if you aren't cheesing it or playing a ruthless style. It just may take as long as for the Abbassids to fall apart, if you're skilled enough.

The problem is that the game becomes much easier when you do all those things like assassinating people, fabricating claims, breeding claimants and giving a last-minute barony to the brother of the king of France the moment before you hit 'Send' on the peace offer as the HRE, and cash in on every cause of imprisonment or revocation. But I'm not sure you can help that other than by introducing BadBoy and making the Pope more outspoken about vices and misdeeds (which I really hope one day is gonna happen; real-life popes were much more active and replaced kings and emperors, these here rarely even excommunicate anyone particularly deserving).

For perspective, I tend to play them as a good rulers, do the right thing and all. As a result I often have huge opinion modifiers most of the time, almost on par with Muslim blobs, which allows me to do a lot of things. But when I keep HCA in place to avoid internal wars and outside inheritances and offer a lot of military assistance to allies and invasion victims etc., factions can really become a pain in the side, even with 25+ Chancellors and Spymasters, maxed-out retinues, PowerDemesne™ and all that jazz. There is actually still challenge. There is boredom or rather loss of attention span (more the subjective weariness and loss of interest in micromanagement than any objective cause), but the challenge is there.

Naturally, I could nuke everybody into oblivion with the available CBs, but I'm not even really tempted to do that. Most of my uses of a holy war CB are because I'm not allowed to join an Orthodox duke somewhere as a defender, or ally with an uprising. So then I declare for Ceuta but sail to Trebizond or something like that.

Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)

Not to be a wet blanket, but I don't think you can produce a qualitative change (which seems to be what you're after) by imposing a global offset on quantitative variables. If anything of that sort, you need to address stacking. But not the ability to stack per se, as much as the greater of opportunities to earn positive than negative modifiers. (The problem with Muslim opinion is not the size but the multitude of positive modifiers.)

This said, the cap was too easily reached. Halving the modifiers is going to bring the curve back. And remove the angst of not being able to benefit from the full 150 or 200 all of the applicable modifiers sometimes add up to (or 300 or 800, but huge grants are bit too obvious).

Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.

Confirmation bias maybe, but I was hoping for something like that. Have you read Conn Iggulden's Wars of the Roses series? If not, you should. It contains everything you need to know about dukes.

Give the Council more power without reducing player agency.

Well, actually give them more agency too. Anything to trigger some interactions. Preferably with some individual, quirky, flawed personality in it. But do try to remember about some common-sense checks to avoid blatantly OOC (out-of-character) results.

(You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)

How about making landless ones ask you for a title anyway (especially count or above, after which they can join factions), especially after some 10-20 years of service? And not necessarily go out peacefully if you sack them for asking?

Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.

Others will have said that by now, but it's still worth saying: Please, don't penalize realms just for expanding. Give the risk assessment some more dimensions. And especially threat posed particularly to you (i.e. the risk-assessing AI ruler) as opposed to being some sort of True Neutral 2nd Edition Druid that fights for balance.

I'm pretty sure France and HRE should be trying to not let each other gain too much head, and some clever England or Castille or even some Duke in Italy will realize that he/she/it doesn't want that either, but if they all get ideas like balance, then things might begin to look a bit New-Ageish on the map, or at least Victorian/WW1-like.

And you do need to avoid having a global variable that ignores religion, though I'm actually looking forward to coreligionists disliking those rulers who abuse religion to expand. Which is not unrealistic at all, the opposite even. But realistically there should be less perceived infamy for expanding into 'infidel' land than 'fidel'.

Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)

I'll judge it when I see it, but I'm turning a lil' bit sour here. Mediaeval rulers certainly pledged those, but doesn't 'non-aggression pact' sound just a bit too modern? Is it possible that you've spent a lot of time working on Victoria 3 these last weeks? Might want to spend some 100 hours in CK2 to counterbalance that.

Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)

I may be seeing things, you're probably only just using technical language, but the idea of containing blobs kinda still makes me think of a modern state's outlook on things (this time especially the decades just after WW2). Really need to watch it to not make them too Westphalian in thinking.

Bring the military AI to a whole new level.[/quotes]

Screenshot or it didn't happen. ;)

Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements.

But don't protract them either. AI refusing to budge before 100% most of the time plus reduced siege weights already has made wars a bit boring compared to early 1.0x.

Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall

Great!

introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)

Good, good.

Listen, I need to suggest something. It's been bothering me for roleplaying reasons. Coming back home through friendly territory after the war. Your allies certainly wouldn't refuse you at least the opportunity to purchase supplies or lodging or whatever. Even with your erstwhile enemies you'd probably have a clause about that in the peace treaty.

(Also, as some country up north without much of a navy you should also be able to hire Ligurian Galleys from Liguria rather than some county up north to have to sail all the way down to Palestine.)

Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions,

Don't wanna the, urm, malcontent, I guess, but I can see how that can actually make it easier. Multiple factions can fire off one by one in a quick chain. That actually causes a ripple effect (3 revolts + decadence + Shi'ia Rising, not like a healthy Abbassid blob isn't capable of shaking it all off anyway, at least the first 15 times). More powerful but fewer factions can fire off more sequentially and be dealt with more sequentially.

Then again, it's probably gonna be more fun that way. The usual Raised Levies Faction 1 through 5 doesn't have the charm of an offended duke.

How exactly are you going to make them more powerful without either having many vassals apparently sympathize with Duke Offended or spawning event troops for the revolt?

The former could look a bit unrealistic (it could look like anti-human bias in practice, even though it also applied vs the AI), the latter has already been done and doesn't seem to have a good solution.

For the record, offended dukes court resort to plotting instead of factions and rely on the plot power algorithm to make things more interesting.

and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

I'm not going to bring it up explicitly, but you probably know what I think needs a rethink with the new law screen (which isn't bad, by the way; I liked the CK1 one a lot).

We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

Hey, there was nothing wrong with that!

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!

Sort of. The teasers you gave here are interesting, but my enthusiasm is quite chilled by the other thing you guys did (or rather the reasons/manner because the thing itself is okay and much needed and I'd been asking for stuff like that anyway).
 
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Thank you so much Crusader Kings team. This is just what I wanted: A harder game after I became powerful...now maybe I will actually play more than two or three centuries per game. Really looking forward to more of a challenge, and here's hoping very hard is now truly very hard! Thank you for your work! :)
 
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Rather than having a regent, which in this game is somewhat disastrous right now, vassals should just be more "rambunctious" when their liege is not physically within the realm for extended periods, whether on council missions for his liege, leading troops, on pilgrimage, etc. For example, a crusading king should be more susceptible to problems back home, like Prince John trying to consolidate his own power in King Richard's long-term absence. The difference between a pilgrimage (regent assigned) and crusading (no regent) is an odd contradiction, but should be resolved in favor of fewer regencies, not more.

I also think it is kind of silly that councilors are physically located where the mission is being performed like they are some kind of lackey or messenger boy. Maybe they should just be physically located in their liege's capital when they are on missions, especially now that the council will have a more substantial role. Which in the scheme I suggested would mean that the councilor's own vassals would be more difficult to manage during those times since a councilor in his liege's capital would not be in his own realm.

That's brilliant ! Something like "Liege is way in the same Region, Liege is away in an adjacent region and Liege is Far Away (eg Crusading in Jerusalem)". There could be a flat opinion malus, say -5, -10 and -15, plus ever increasing risk of factions springing up, plots hatching etc.

While the cat's away the mice will play !
 

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Such strange hostility towards this expansion... In my honest opinion the mere sales pitch of this expansion is better than every expansion since RoI... especially Charlemagne (ew).
 
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I am happy for the new CK2 fans this expansion.

Sadly as said before I don't see any new mechanics that makes jump wth joy.
Partly is my own fault for loving this game so much that am trying to get as much out it as I could with modding.

Now I do love to have new mechanics or factions or something that makes me go wow. Excited :(
Even if unlocking mercenary again or playable theologie or inland republics or council housings (for those not landed like forts with a small levy) something wow that makes me jump with joy.

Even if you guys can't ad it unlock some stuff or finish the province screen so I can ad houses or other places beside fort and tradepost.
Yes I was thinking of adding a raidable brothel :p but that is something else ;)

Playable baronies for adventurers :p or even courtiers (aside from clunky workaround to give them counties landless titles)
I don't know something that excist already , am not asking you guys to support nomad merchant republics :p

Give me something small to make wow like.
 
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  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)

Isn't this how most wars of the time were won, though? A few major battles, deciding the entire outcome of the war? Sieges were fought, of course, but it was reasonably common for fortified towns to just surrender rather than trying to withstand invaders if the war was already going badly.
 
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Sadly as said before I don't see any new mechanics that makes jump wth joy.
Partly is my own fault for loving this game so much that am trying to get as much out it as I could with modding.

This is literally the entirety of a very much you problem.

I, for one, AM jumping with wow.
 
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This is literally the entirety of a very much you problem.

I, for one, AM jumping with wow.


And I am happy for you, like I am for others who haven't gotten to the map painting stages yet.
And am happy that women players can now select equality without modding and other features I already have or had without the fancy UI.

Do you see me talk people down cause of there wishes? I am genuine happy for those new players that they approach the map painting stages with a sense of challenge.
 
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Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)


Oh, wow. So You actually do read forum topics :p Now, You should do something with this great gap between successful small states having negligible amounts of piety and prestige versus empires falling apart, but giving ruler enough prestige to make him "the great" (and nickname is not an issue!).
 

Thure

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And you do need to avoid having a global variable that ignores religion, though I'm actually looking forward to coreligionists disliking those rulers who abuse religion to expand. Which is not unrealistic at all, the opposite even. But realistically there should be less perceived infamy for expanding into 'infidel' land than 'fidel'.

Tell this Castille... They were not happy about Leon expanding into Taifa territory. So Castille allied with the Taifas against Leon. It's more about danger than about religion (And I think 'threat' would be a better term for 'Infamy' in this case).

And I am happy for you, like I am for others who haven't gotten to the map painting stages yet.
And am happy that women players can now select equality without modding and other features I already have or had without the fancy UI.

Do you see me talk people down cause of there wishes? I am genuine happy for those new players that they approach the map painting stages with a sense of challenge.

I'm not a new player and I like this expansion very much. It was allways asked to expand internal politics.And now we get it.
 
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Tagora

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What an utter disappointment. Quite literally the only dlc I will never purchase. It only saddens me to realize that I'll have to avoid the patch, too, and possibly lose access to newer versions of mods that integrate the update. Esp @ shattered armies, annoying and not historically accurate one bit. Basically all the reasons why I played ck2 over eu4 are going away.
 
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shulima

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I also think it is kind of silly that councilors are physically located where the mission is being performed like they are some kind of lackey or messenger boy. Maybe they should just be physically located in their liege's capital when they are on missions, especially now that the council will have a more substantial role. Which in the scheme I suggested would mean that the councilor's own vassals would be more difficult to manage during those times since a councilor in his liege's capital would not be in his own realm.

I think it comes from the fact that court mechanics are the same for a baron and an emperor, while in reality, a baron's spymaster would likely take a journey to Constantinople to snoop around, but a king's would have his own spy network and pull the strings from the comfort of the court. Same with any other council position, really.
 
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theKing1988

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Tell this Castille... They were not happy about Leon expanding into Taifa territory. So Castille allied with the Taifas against Leon. It's more about danger than about religion (And I think 'threat' would be a better term for 'Infamy' in this case).



I'm not a new player and I like this expansion very much. It was allways asked to expand internal politics.And now we get it.

That example is fairly local though (Shared borders between everyone involved). The showcased example we've seen so far is Qarakhanids allying with the Arabs and Georgia against the Seljuqs, which is basically complete BS. First of all, all 3 are way too far away to care or do anything about attacks on each other (I am aware of the fact that real-life actual distance apparently does not exist in CK2 Thure). And the Muslims would certainly not care one bit what happened to a Christian state when it wasn't at least of similar power to them. And Georgia in the 1070'ies and 1080'ies were a poor and weak country, in crisis.
 
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