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CKIII Dev Diary #27 - Cultures & Cultural Innovations

Greetings, dear friends, and welcome to the cultural dev diary! Today, we’re going to be going over some familiar mechanics from CK2, and, relatedly, our decidedly less familiar all-new tech system!

Cultures & Culture Groups
The basic structure of the cultural system will be fairly recognisable to many of you. Every county and character on the map has a culture, representing (usually) the majority demographic for that county or the preferred customs of that character. Most cultures are based around a language, but some focus more on dialect or specific bodies of tradition, and a few are even primarily just regional.

Every culture, in turn, belongs to a culture group. These are gatherings of several cultures that, whilst distinct from one another, are nevertheless closely related. Most often this is down to a shared root culture, but in a few cases cultures have entered the same group merely by cohabiting for a long period of time.

Characters who come from completely different cultures like each other less, with characters who come from different cultures within the same group taking a reduced penalty. Like CK2, this only matters within your realm, so you won’t get grumpy at your neighbour for being different unless you’re occasionally required to talk to the lad.

Cultural preferences carry over to the peasantry: if the lord who directly holds a particular county doesn’t share that county’s culture, then that county will take a hit to popular opinion (with the hit being smaller if they’re at least part of the same culture group).

Of course, as this is only the direct holder of a county, having a good friend who understands the local customs in charge of all these strange foreign peasants can be an excellent way to stave off peasant revolts...

But what about...
… Melting pots and culture splits? Still got ‘em! We’ve even got some fancy new scripted effects to make it easier than ever to add your own.

Culture conversion is also more easily accessible: per the council task dev diary, this is now a council task, performed by your steward. You can attempt to culture convert any county in your sub-realm, though without an excellent steward or certain types of faith, it’ll likely take a while. People seldom change their culture quickly or willingly.

Show us the good stuff!
Ahhhhhh, you want to see some maps? See how granular we’re getting with our cultural setup this time around? Well, maps I’ve got! How many new cultures can you pick out?

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Cultural & Technology
In CK3, cultures mean a lot more than just a few points of opinion here and there. Cultures are now an integral part of our reworked system for technology, with eras, explicit innovations, and mechanics for tussling over the cultural heart of your people.

Innovations
Innovations are the very heart of CK3’s technological system. Each one represents a thorough proliferation of an idea, a legal practice, or a specific technology, taken to heart by any given culture, or still weird and foreign no matter its advantages. As the game progresses, cultures will slowly become more and more accustomed to the various innovations, until each innovation is thoroughly embraced and ubiquitous amongst the people of that culture. At that point, an innovation is considered “unlocked”, and its unique benefits are accessible to characters and counties of the unlocking culture.

005.png


Benefits for each innovation vary tremendously between them. Some unlock new and better forms of succession law, some give bonuses to growth or income, some allow access to specific Men-at-Arms, or even grant entirely new CBs. We have innovations for everything from battlements to bombards, from coinage to cranes, and wootz steel to wierdijks!

Innovations broadly fall into one of three categories: military, civic, and special (a.k.a, "Cultural and Regional"), each grouped together in the interface.

Military and civic innovations typically cover what you might expect (martial and non-martial matters, respectively). All cultures can, eventually, acquire all military and civic innovations.

Special innovations behave a bit differently. A few are unlocked via special decisions and can only be acquired by taking those decisions, whilst some are cultural, requiring you to belong to a specific culture or culture group, but most are regional innovations.

006.png


Regional innovations require you to either have at least a certain number of counties within a specific area to unlock, or else to have a certain percentage of your culture’s total counties within that area. They represent concepts and technologies that were specific to certain areas historically, rather than spreading across large areas of the globe, but which could very easily have been developed by any culture moving into that area.

Needless to say, innovations, the bonuses they provide, and the mechanics they unlock are all fully scriptable and can be modded with ease.

But how do I *unlock* an innovation?
All innovations have a small chance to progress towards being unlocked per month, affected by a few factors, with the most telling one being average development of the sum counties a culture holds. A culture that spreads recklessly will have naturally slower growth than one that exists in concentrated pockets of high development.

The major ways generation progress towards unlocking innovations are setting fascinations and exposure. Each of these affect only a single innovation at a time, though both happen simultaneously.

Exposure is a natural process, occurring when your culture has counties that border another culture with a specific innovation. The more you have in common (culture group, religion, and so on) with that other culture, and the more of its counties your culture borders, the faster you’ll unlock that innovation.

007.png


Fascination, by contrast, is an entirely character-driven process, reflecting the drive of powerful leaders to introduce new concepts and technologies (be they original or imported) to their people. Where exposure is selected randomly from suitable innovations, fascination is deliberately selected by a specific character.

Who gets to pick? Why, the cultural head.

008.png


Any culture with at least one landed ruler somewhere has a cultural head, who then has complete control over which fascination is selected from available innovations. The cultural head always shares the culture they are the head of, and is the character with the most counties of that culture within their sub-realm in the world.

As you can imagine, the size of the culture makes a difference in how easy it is to become (and stay) cultural head: there are many more Andalusian counties than there are, say, Cornish ones.

An important factor in unlocking innovations via fascination is the learning skill of the cultural head. An unlearned cultural head doesn’t do much to bring new ideas and technologies to their people, but an erudite scholar knows who to invite to court, how to phrase ideas in a way the peasants will accept, and how to get the nobility to see the benefit of embracing a foreign concept!

Eras
You might be thinking that this sounds a little bit disorganised. What stops me, say, unlocking bombards in the 900s and blowing my enemies away with oversized canons for the next five hundred years?

The answer to that is eras.

009.png


In CK3, all innovations are organised into one of four eras, before being categorised into military, civic, or special. In order to begin unlocking innovations from an era, you need to have actually reached that era.

If an innovation belongs to the Tribal Era, no problem. All cultures start with the tribal era reached, and many primarily-feudal cultures will start with most (if not all) of its innovations unlocked, especially in 1066.

For the eras beyond that (the Early Medieval, High Medieval, and Late Medieval), you need to meet two criteria. The date must be at least an appropriate minimum year (e.g., the high medieval period cannot start before 1050 AD), and you must have at least 50% of the preceding era’s innovations unlocked. Further, if your cultural head is tribal, you will be unable to progress to the next era until you obtain a non-tribal cultural head. Cultures that have just left the Tribal Era will unlock innovations faster for a time, allowing them to catch up a little as medieval social and legal structures begin sweeping their lands.

Eras therefore let us gate technologies and features in stages, so that cultures which thrived in later centuries can still use their special bonuses, units, and features, but don’t get them too anachronistically.

Aaaand that about wraps it up for cultures and technology! I’ll be around the thread to answer questions for the next couple of hours, but otherwise, we’ll see you next week!
 

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Metz77

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Not when Cumbrian is an English dialect that also currently exists, generating confusion.

On the contrary, I feel like using a term modern people are familiar with will help resolve any confusion, especially as it is not only the name of the language, but also a term meaning "pertaining to Cumbria."
 
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Does the Outremer culture have variations depending on what cultural group the leaders of the Crusader states come from? Feels like there should be at least some difference if the first crusade is mainly led by an Irish Empire versus led by the French or led by the Hungarians.
 
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Bearnest

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Apologies if this has been mentioned before, it's a 12-page 13-page thread as of now and I just read the DD, but I'll repeat my thoughts that I posted on another thread on the choice of a language usage I've seen: It's bad wording to use "Expected to be discovered". You don't usually have a time table to discover things; you discover things mostly by chance (even if you're specifically looking for something). I think it'd be more apt to use "Expected to be implemented", or "Expected to have a breakthrough in research".
 
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WOW

what a mess, please fix before release.

Frisian =/= Dutch

Frisian didnt turn into Dutch...

Dutch formed out of Low Frankish, and was attested at the earliest date around 900. But it's NOT in the north. Its home territory is Belgium. Branbantish and Flemish are the primary Dutch Dialects that should form the Dutch Culture in Crusader Kings. From the year 800-1450, Hollandic does not at all represent Dutch as Hollandic didnt exist yet.

Modern Standard Dutch is based on the Hollandic Dialect, the dialect that appeared latest of all and that incorporates some frisian elements into it. ITS NOT the historical Dutch. Thats in modern Belgium.

Frisian still remains to this day and has only been replaced by Dutch, not turned into Dutch. Furthermore, the Eastern Part of the netherlands today is a Low Saxon/Low German dialect, not a Dutch dialect. And this implies that their original language is the same.

The Northern Rhine area above Cologne should be Low Frankish/Dutch too. Franconian is the dialect that represents the High German Consonant shift that Low Frankish never went through.

View attachment 579739
I have no idea why the low countries always look so bad/unresearched on these culture maps. I get that it might be a lot to take in, but don't they literally have Dutch people on their team? I could even understand making Flanders Franconian here, but I'm not sure that the western part of flanders being French culture is even based on anything. And even if they did associate Old-Frankish more closely with Franconian, then we'd still have the Frisians who have very different lineage being crammed in with everyone else.

Edit: On hindsight it's probably because one person can't know everything about everywhere, Which is fair. That's why people pointing it out on the forums is important, I guess.
 
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If I read the map right and the Polabian culture extends well into central Poland (considering the west-east axis), then I find the Polish-Polabian-Pomeranian divide very weird. It looks like an anachronistic divide based on what areas were to become Germanized at least some 500 years after the start game date. Some areas geographically very close to the heartland of early Polish statehood that were firmly under Polish control at least between X and XIII century were given Polabian culture, that doesn't make much sense to me.
Adding to my previous post: Polabian actually means "near the river of Elbe" so having Polabian culture touching Vistula makes completely no sense at all.

There should be no Polabian east of Oder IMO especially when we have a separate Pomeranian culture.
 
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Metz77

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Wokeg already said he'll be bringing Flanders and Brabant to the attention of the devs responsible, y'all, chill.
 
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That tribal tech at year 476... Does it mean we can hope for a way earlier start date? Playing as Justinian the Great, the Rise of Islam... Should be fascinating!
I was thinking the same thing. The DD states that one of the requirements to unlock that era's innovations is to meet the minimum calendar date. If the Tribal Era is the game's earliest era, why have it start in 476 (the fall of the Western Roman Empire) instead of any other date? The most probable reason that I can think of is that the devs plan on releasing additional start dates as early as 476 (probably as DLC).
 
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Wokeg already said he'll be bringing Flanders and Brabant to the attention of the devs responsible, y'all, chill.

We need more than that.

Bringing it to someone's attention and not fixing it wont do.

Its weird that Crusader Kings 2 does a better job here than Crusader Kings 3

So why change something to be worse? Is there no historian to check these fundamental things?
 
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We need more than that.

Bringing it to someone's attention and not fixing it wont do.

Its weird that Crusader Kings 2 does a better job here than Crusader Kings 3

So why change something to be worse? Is there no historian to check these fundamental things?

It's not his job, I'm not sure what you expect him to do other than tell the people whose job it is. :rolleyes:
 
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How do you decide who the cultural head is if your characters culture has no counties? Like if I started as cornish and sailed away to the mainland then the english converted the cornish lands. Is it the person of that culture with the most learning? Does it act like 'no head?'

Also just so I'm getting this clear. If you start in 1066 you'll already be in the second to last age of the game in most parts of the world? It's not too bad but i guess that makes me want to see more ages.
 
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It's not his job, I'm not sure what you expect him to do other than tell the people whose job it is. :rolleyes:

This is why it helps having developers in dev diaries who created these things.

This way the community can directly communicate and have a discussion about it.

We see this in Eu4 dev diaries.
 
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I was thinking the same thing. The DD states that one of the requirements to unlock that era's innovations is to meet the minimum calendar date. If the Tribal Era is the game's earliest era, why have it start in 476 (the fall of the Western Roman Empire) instead of any other date? The most probable reason that I can think of is that the devs plan on releasing additional start dates as early as 476 (probably as DLC).
Unlikely.
It's more likely that the game logic needs a start date for all eras, and 476 is a convenient one because it's a widely accepted transition date.

The game mechanics would not like a 476 start, and the decline in centralisation that followed from the fall of the WRE.
CKII, with similar principles *just about* squeaked along at 769, and going back further would have been almost impossible.
 
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LordofLight

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So why change something to be worse? Is there no historian to check these fundamental things?
Look at the whole map of CK3.


If they have people checking, I'd say these people are spread thin. Like a single stick of butter trying to cover the entirety of europe, india, some of asia and africa. I don't think it will cover a city alone! I haven't checked yet.

In all seriousness they have an insane amount of stuff to check, as I said before its probably easier having folk point things out and updating it.

Probably will take less time than equal research into absolutely everything.
 
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IntoTheStars

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I was thinking the same thing. The DD states that one of the requirements to unlock that era's innovations is to meet the minimum calendar date. If the Tribal Era is the game's earliest era, why have it start in 476 (the fall of the Western Roman Empire) instead of any other date? The most probable reason that I can think of is that the devs plan on releasing additional start dates as early as 476 (probably as DLC).

I think Meneth already confirmed on reddit that it was added because a bug report said otherwise the Tribal start date said like -950, and 476 seemed as good as anything else.

I really wouldn’t look at it as anything important.
 
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Metz77

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This is why it helps having developers in dev diaries who created these things.

This way the community can directly communicate and have a discussion about it.

We see this in Eu4 dev diaries.

The point is, the problem has already been pointed out and acknowledged, there's no need for you to rehash it. We know already. The devs know already.
 
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IndigoRage

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We need more than that.

Bringing it to someone's attention and not fixing it wont do.

Its weird that Crusader Kings 2 does a better job here than Crusader Kings 3

So why change something to be worse? Is there no historian to check these fundamental things?
I agree it needs to be fixed, but not everyone on the staff can do everything. Telling someone whose job is in regard to that is the most that can be done.
 
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zz77

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Something is deeply wrong with the concept of cultural heads.

For instance, there are two realms within one culture. The size of these realms are approximately equal, but one of them are slightly bigger and thus the king of this realm is the cultural head. Why the development of the slightly lesser realm must be stopped just because the king of the other realm (the cultural head) is imbecile?

Same problem with the correlation between culture size and development. According to the logic of the devs, larger cultures will develop slower than small cultures. And this idea means that the most developed cultures in the game should be Basque or Estonian, or something like that. While bigger cultures, such as French, English or German must be poorly developed. But the reality was quite the opposite.
 
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ShinsukeNakamura

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I know that Polabian issue had been mentioned here many times, but I actually wrote a post about that few days ago:
 
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