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CK3 Dev Diary #79 - An Update on Cultures

Greetings!

We’ve talked plenty about cultures already at this point, but I wanted to give you a brief update on what we’ve done since the initial reveal of the culture rework. Since then, we’ve taken some time to add additional functionality based on your feedback!

Previously, you could only add new traditions to a culture to fill out any empty tradition slots you may have. If you wanted to change anything regarding your culture, you would have to create a new one. Which begs the question. What if I want to keep the culture I already have? Or why can I not replace that one tradition to make my culture perfect? Fret not. The cultural head has gained the ability to change, or ‘reform’ if you will, their culture in order to change it without the need to create a new culture. The cultural head cannot replace everything mind you, but may change the ethos, the martial custom, and any tradition. If you want to change any of the remaining pillars you’ll have to create a new culture, either by diverging or forming a hybrid. Do note that you need to own the Royal Court expansion to reform your culture, similar to creating a culture. Even without the DLC, you can always add new traditions to fill out any empty slots.

Reasoning for what you are able to change this way is twofold. First, changing heritage or language for an existing culture felt a bit off. While a language in reality does evolve over time, that is something we don’t really represent in the game, which makes it weird to simply “replace” a language. And you can’t really change your heritage in the same vein as, say, a tradition. Secondly, we wanted to make sure that you still have a valid reason to create a divergent culture. The two approaches are slightly similar in functionality, but it is important that both reforming and diverging a culture serves different purposes and that the distinction between the two is clear.

01_reform_button.jpg

[Image showing the options to reform or diverge a culture]

The major difference is, as mentioned above, that reforming only allows you to change certain aspects about a culture, while diverging allows for additional possibilities. A second significant difference is the cost. Replacing a pillar will cost you prestige. The ethos in particular includes a rather hefty prestige cost that should make it rather difficult to repeatedly change it over the course of a campaign. You are, however, free to pick any ethos, regardless of circumstances.

02_replace_ethos.jpg

[Image of the ethos replacement window]

Traditions will also be more expensive to replace. Instead of just a flat increase, replacing a tradition increases the prestige cost by 50%. The cost penalty will therefore be relative to how well your culture matches any given tradition, making the additional cost more harsh for already expensive (and less compatible) traditions.

03_replace_tradition_cost.jpg

[Image showing the prestige cost for the Agrarian tradition when replacing a tradition]

These additional costs will make reforming or diverging your culture easier or more difficult depending on your situation. Attempting to diverge from a large and unified culture, such as Greek when playing as the Byzantine emperor, will be rather expensive and the less viable option. Especially if you only want to change a tradition or two. Reforming your culture will be cheaper, allowing you to more easily tweak your culture over time.

If you are playing as the cultural head of a widely spread culture, such as Andalusian, diverging might instead be your preferred solution. Diverging from a culture that is spread out across multiple realms is significantly cheaper, allowing you to instead spend the prestige on replacing additional traditions or save it for something else entirely. Changing pillars is, for example, free when diverging, since you are forced to change at least one pillar in order to be able to create your new culture.

Finally, you might have noticed the hourglass in the above screenshots. This is the establishment rate. Whenever you add or replace a tradition, or change a pillar, it will take some time before the change is applied. The time required for a change to be fully adopted mainly depends on your culture’s size. Larger cultures will logically gravitate towards a slower establishment rate. The duration is also increased whenever you replace an existing tradition. As such, adding a completely new tradition to your culture is not only cheaper, but it will go faster as well. This is important because you may only have one cultural change pending at any given time. If you replace a tradition with something else, you will have to wait until that tradition has been fully adopted before you can change your culture again. Diverging, on the other hand, still allows you to do sweeping changes and they take effect immediately as you create a new culture.

04_establish_time.jpg

[Image of the establishment rate tooltip]

That about sums up all of the additional changes we’ve done. In short, the ambition here is to allow you to shape your culture more freely in the way you want, without having to always resort to doing something that might feel a bit heavy handed. On a final note, I’d like to thank you for providing us with feedback and voicing your opinions! Giving valid and constructive criticism does, at times, pay off.
 
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1. We renamed the 'Inventive' ethos, to make it more widely applicable, but I think the effects are remains the same as before.
And Bellicose? Considering that was by far the worst name of the lot.

the system of languages itself will not be grown.
That's quite unfortunate, since giving each language a "family" attribute and reducing time to learn related languages would be a great way to deepen the simulation and make the differences between languages more meaningful, and should be relatively simple to implement. It's understandable that adding features isn't in the cards when you're already delaying the expansion because it's too messy behind the scenes, but still, it's a shame to see something so obviously useful get left by the wayside.
 
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That could certainly be a good source for some additional flavor, but no. We don't have any such events.
I think this is an unfortunate outcome of CK3's event-driven format. If you don't have events that trigger on something like culture divergence or reformation, then it feels like you have a realm that's ostensibly going through a major upheaval, and yet the world just keeps on ticking as if nothing is happening. It's jarring to have the game mechanics telling you that something important is going on, and the event system telling you that the only thing of note is that you lost a snowball fight to your 6-month-old child.
 
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Personally I'd prefer for the connection between change in cultures and the ruler that happened to be alive at the time to remain strictly in the realm of abstraction for gameability purposes.
The direction of something as large as a culture isn't something decided by singular ahistorical "great men" and then pushed down on the population at large.

Yeah but the game lets players arbitrarily change it anyway with prestige of great rulers. They could take the prestige requirement away, but then it would just be a freeform cultural roleplay and less of a game.

A great game provides varied gameplay, and having prestige and piety act like abstracted currencies that can be used on anything is not varied gameplay.

We’re not debating “great men”, because that is already an assumption made by a character-based video game. We’re debating whether gameplay should be abstracted or varied in detail, and I think gameplay which is varied in detail is more fun.
 
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Personally I'd prefer for the connection between change in cultures and the ruler that happened to be alive at the time to remain strictly in the realm of abstraction for gameability purposes.
The direction of something as large as a culture isn't something decided by singular ahistorical "great men" and then pushed down on the population at large.
I think that bridge was crossed a long time ago, when they decided to change from CK2's original vision of piety and prestige as a score-keeping mechanism to a currency. Now we live in the world where, to lead a successful heresy, you have to live as a devout catholic for decades, and any time you contradict the church, that makes you less able to form a heresy.

Your point is definitely correct, but I think we just have to accept that this dynamic is so built-in to CK3's design that every new system is going to be "save up enough prestige and/or piety mana so that you can press the button".
 
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I think that bridge was crossed a long time ago, when they decided to change from CK2's original vision of piety and prestige as a score-keeping mechanism to a currency. Now we live in the world where, to lead a successful heresy, you have to live as a devout catholic for decades, and any time you contradict the church, that makes you less able to form a heresy.
It never actually occured to me, but you are right. Tho, to be honest, real life heresies were more like different interpretations of religions and not stuff straight up from Warhammer 40k. The religions, which actually changed doctrines were all the "reformed" Churches from XVIth century (at least in case of Christianity)
 
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I think all of these changes are really solid. Great job!

Languages already represent a wider array of things than just one specific language or dialect, adding another layer of abstraction over the top of that or adding more sub levels and properties like scripts as spoke about earlier in this thread is very much out of the scope of what a language in the game represents and impacts.

View attachment 768185
The actual in game tooltip explains it pretty succinctly I feel. Language is one aspect of the culture system rework, it is not in of itself going to to have a system on a similar scale or multiple hierarchies applied in this culture rework.

We have acted on various pieces of feedback with regards to some language names and suggested languages and areas as pieces of content in the system, but the system of languages itself will not be grown.
While I can understand not including language groups/families for this release as you all are already adding so much great stuff. And you have to draw the line somewhere. But I do hope down the road you reconsider, as I think language groups/families is a relatively easy way to give languages some added flavour and mechanics beyond just this culture speaks it.
 
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CK3 is starting to look more and more like a patreon/kickstarter project, plenty of "dev diaries" lots of promise and then when it comes time to deliver... boom, last minute switch, they did it the previous week with "royal audio" which again isnt really a dev diary.. they did a similar thing with "meet the team" not too far back... and now.. they're just rehashing what they've already explained 3x.

let me explain, i'm not impatient, im an adult but I am also not one to be strung along, pdx has an entire team dedicated to this game right?
modders have completely (and meaningfully) overhauled the entire game down to its pop management in a way that makes the AI actually competent.. now, are you seriously telling me that a small group of modders who have never met, have no official sponsorship and who lead busy lives of their own and still find time to completely overhaul the game have managed to become more productive than the people who are paid to actually work on the game?

i'm not a troll, im not an angry kid on the internet, i'm just a long standing paradox and CK fan who seems to be watching his favourite franchise and gaming company become like all the others, big promises and little fulfilment.

my refund window closes in 2 months, thats how long pdx has to show me that the season pass was worth buying, because so far...we got nadda, part from northern lords which is a flavour pack, for what it was worth might aswell have been a free patch.
IDK why you have to non stop say you are not a troll or a kid or whatever, it's almost like you know you are being unreasonable
 
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It would be great, to get some bonuses from having multicultural realm. In exemple: bonuses to development iff different terrains are populated by approprieate cultures (mountainers in mountains, farmers in farmlands etc).
 
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It would be great, to get some bonuses from having multicultural realm. In exemple: bonuses to development iff different terrains are populated by approprieate cultures (mountainers in mountains, farmers in farmlands etc).
Definitely agree. Right now having territory of another culture seems to be purely downside, which forces us to ask what the point of all these culture mechanics are if the goal of the game is to erase other cultures as quickly as possible.
 
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It never actually occured to me, but you are right. Tho, to be honest, real life heresies were more like different interpretations of religions and not stuff straight up from Warhammer 40k. The religions, which actually changed doctrines were all the "reformed" Churches from XVIth century (at least in case of Christianity)
All reformed by PIOUS people who spent years as a member of some church.

Like Henry VIII was a papal apologist for years until he got enough 'piety' by writing testimonials to reform the church lmfao.
 
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IDK why you have to non stop say you are not a troll or a kid or whatever, it's almost like you know you are being unreasonable

I said it twice throughout the entire thing not non-stop, I said it so to make the point that what I'm saying is not just for "shock" and "reaction", I want them to do better, as a dev team and hopefully as a company and clearly I am not the only one.
 
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All reformed by PIOUS people who spent years as a member of some church.

Like Henry VIII was a papal apologist for years until he got enough 'piety' by writing testimonials to reform the church lmfao.
To be honest, early Anglicanism was basically just Catholicism, but with divorces and King as the head of the religion
 
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I would like to see the same system implemented for religion, it only makes sense. However, for religion, it would only make sense if the religious head would enact such changes, or approve of them. So the player should be required to be the religious head, or have high relations with the religious head (and perhaps other considerations).
 
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Is the prestige cost paid out immediately or over the period that the change happens? Ideally, if a change is going to take 13 years then the cost to change should not be one time cost, but spread every month over the 13 year period (or, it can be a fixed monthly prestige hit depending on the action, which will mean the overall cost will scale up if the change is taking longer time)
 
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If you change your Ethos what happens to Traditions that require a certain Ethos to work?

Do they become inactive? Do you get a discount on replacing them?

Is it possible to just drop a tradition without replacing it?
 
If you change your Ethos what happens to Traditions that require a certain Ethos to work?

Do they become inactive? Do you get a discount on replacing them?

Is it possible to just drop a tradition without replacing it?
Do any traditions require an ethos to work? I know they might require an ethos to be more effective (or cheaper to adopt), but I don't think any are restricted to particular ethoses.
 
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