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CK3 Dev Diary #77 - Becoming a Polyglot

Greetings!

As you all know, one of the new Cultural Pillars each Culture has is their native Language. Now, what effect does language have? At its very core, Languages affect the Baseline acceptance between cultures - if two Cultures share the same Language Pillar, they’ll like each other better. But that’s not all, characters can also learn additional languages!

So, why do you want to learn a language? Knowing a language cuts the (rather hefty) opinion penalties for Different Culture in half, both for Characters and Counties. Planning on conquering a foreign kingdom? Start your conquest by mastering their language, making subsequent control of your new subjects just that much easier! The less accepted your culture is, the more impact learning a language will have.

Now for the more pertinent question, how do you learn another language? You learn new languages through scheming!
SchemeInteraction.png

[Image showing the Learn Language interaction]

LanguageSchemeStart.png

[Image showing the Start Scheme window]

‘Learn Language’ is a Learning-based scheme, where progress and chance of success are primarily derived from how scholarly your character is. This scheme is available to everyone, even young children (who have a vastly increased chance of success/progress, by virtue of being young, less tired, and having working brains). It targets someone who natively speaks the language, having you try to emulate them. While the exact target you choose is less important than in other types of schemes, you might still get opportunities to interact with them.

Now, learning languages takes quite some time. Though it’s possible to significantly speed up the process by employing a Court Tutor!
CourtTutor.png

[Image of a Court Tutor]

You will also find that bonuses for this scheme have been added throughout the existing Lifestyle trees. Some examples:
  • Adaptive Traditions - Unlocks an additional Learn Language Scheme
  • Embassies - Increases Scheme Power
  • Chains of Loyalty - Increases Scheme Power
  • Pedagogy - Increases Scheme Success Chance
  • Open-Minded - Increases the Language Limit
  • Smooth Operator - Increases the Language Limit

If the scheme is invalidated by, for example, the target dying, your progress is retained and you get the opportunity to choose a new target.
InvalidationEvent.png

[Image of Invalidation Event]

When we first talked about languages, we had some people (rightfully) point out that decreasing the chance of success the more languages you know isn’t very logical. We still needed a way to prevent characters from knowing all the languages in the world, and thus we introduced the concept of a Foreign Language Limit. This represents how many languages a character can comfortably remember.

KnownLanguages.png

[Image of Language Limit]

If a character exceeds their Foreign Language Limit, they will start getting events about feeling overwhelmed, giving you the choice between forgetting a language or gaining stress. In a sense, this system is very similar to how we handle characters having too many lovers.

Of course, a character can never forget the language that is native to their culture, and that language isn’t included in the limit (as you can see in the above screenshot, Telugu isn’t included in the limit as it is his native language).

The Foreign Language Limit is affected by many things, but primarily by a character’s Learning score, where every 5 attribute points increases the limit by one.

With this change, we’ve made it so that the more languages you know, the higher your success chance is for learning additional languages. You have the basics down already, after all.
LanguageSuccessChance.png

[Image of a success chance breakdown]

Now, the process of learning a language can be quite entertaining. There are many events that can happen along the way; being helped by friends or family, opposed by rivals, and so on. Here are a handful of examples of what can happen during the course of learning a language:

LearnLanguageEvent1.png

[Image of your Court Tutor helping you]

If you have a particularly good Court Tutor, they can guide your efforts along very speedily.

LearnLanguageEvent2.png

[Image of a rival ruining your notes]

Beware your rivals, lest they release ink-soaked birds in your study...

LearnLanguageEvent3.png

[Image of a very amorous misunderstanding]

Sometimes learning a language doesn’t result in what you’d expect...

LearnLanguageEvent4.png

[Image of the Byzantine Emperor with a “It’s just a prank, bro”-smile]

Sometimes your target might find your efforts laughable, and try to make fun of you.

LearnLanguageEvent5.png

[Image of a merchant offering you a book]

Of course, there is an opportunity to gain a trinket-slot item that’ll help your efforts along.

LearnLanguageEvent6.png

[Image of someone offering to help]

As learning a language isn’t secret, sometimes you’ll get offers from other rulers to help you… for a price.

When the scheme completes, you have a chance of success and failure. If you’re brave, you might even choose to test your new abilities right away by penning a letter to your target!
SuccessEvent.png

[Image of a successful scheme]

FailEvent.png

[Image of a failed scheme]

Of course, you might find that others are emulating you in their efforts to learn your language. This gives you the opportunity to praise their efforts, or perhaps you’d rather ridicule them?
SomeoneLearnedYourLanguage.png

[Image of someone learning your language]

That’s it for this week! Now, this isn’t the only way languages are used in the game… next week we will dive into another use for them, something which ties directly into the mechanics of the Royal Court!
 
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I noticed it says that children can do this "scheme," which makes sense. But is there a way to try to push one's young heir to learn a language, if they haven't chosen the learning scheme on their own?
 
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Love that languages are being added to the game.

As for limiting the languages that characters can learn, I would have something similar to real life. So as someone that speaks four languages, what really limits you to being fluent in multiple language is having the time/opportunity to practice the language.

What I would like to see is a soft language limit. Once you go over the limit there is an increasing chance you'll start to forget a language. The probability of forgetting a language would depend on how many courtiers and vassals you have that speak the language (more courtiers/vassals = lower chance of forgetting). With special bonuses if the language is spoken in your capital province, or if your liege or wife speaks the language.

Once you start forgetting a language you would get an event to either spend time practicing the language or let yourself forget the language. If you choose to practice more it would start a scheme to practice the language. During that time you wouldn't be able to learn another language. Eventually if you learned too many languages it would get to the point where you would have to choose which language you wanted to remember and limit the total languages you could know at once. Also if you choose to relearn a language you should have a very high success chance.

Also, I'm curious how Latin would work. Maybe a prestige bonus for Catholics speaking Latin? Ditto for Sanskrit.
 
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I was thinking about this and I feel like something could be improved with specifiying how good you are at a language. But first (because I tend not to post much):

I love this DLC. I was a bit worried when I bought the Royal Edition that the DLCs might not be too great. Northern Lords was good and added a lot of flavour, it just happened to be for an area I never played much. But this? This is looking fantastic. From the improved court system to cultures to quality of life, it really is amazing.

And this update makes total sense. Language is a pillar of culture and a lot, if not most, medieval rulers spoke multiple languages so it makes sense. Adds another level to realism which I am always a fan of. All around, a great job. Onto my suggestion; proficiencies.

As far as I can tell, languages are either learnt or not learnt. I think it'd be better to have something similar to the skills or prowess; the higher the number, the better you understand the language and the more success you will have in events or schemes involving it (e.g. swaying someone). So instead of:

French: Learnt.
German: Learnt.


Perhaps something more like:

English: Native.
French: Excellent.
German: Poor.


With a native language (as you mentioned) being one you can't forget. Swaying someone when you speak their language as a native, poorly, and excellently are all going to go differently rather than just being able to speak the language. Perhaps you would even slowly forget languages over time like a penalty unless you keep having lessons or interacting with people who speak the language? I'm just spitballing ideas here. Maybe this was even considered and found that it couldn't work for one reason or another.

Anyway, another great Dev Diary and I cannot wait to play with this!
 
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When you are raising a child I think it would be cool if you could have someone teach them another language alongside the native tongue of the guardian. I haven't been following super close to this update, but I think that if this hasn't been addressed already it would be a good addition.
 

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Are they still not answering questions about Latin?

They would be wise to approach languages with the same tiered logic of titles... Empire - Kingdom - Duchy - County.


For languages, this could be something like: Language Family (culture family) - Language (culture) - Dialect (region).

In the above example, Latin - French - whatever regional dialect.

This way, speaking Latin will give you bonuses with the entire cultural family of languages coming from Latin?

This is just a quick idea, unrefined, but there simply has to be a way to include "lingua francas" in the game.

SOME languages should be a way to communicate with a large number of foreigners... Latin, Greek, Arabic... Languages that are trans-national, that would give diplomacy bonuses
 
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Are they still not answering questions about Latin?
No they are staying silent so far...
1634460218900.png

They would be wise to approach languages with the same tiered logic of titles... Empire - Kingdom - Duchy - County.

For languages, this could be something like: Language Family (culture family) - Language (culture) - Dialect (region).

In the above example, Latin - French - whatever regional dialect.

This way, speaking Latin will give you bonuses with the entire cultural family of languages coming from Latin?
Yes we need Language Families
This is just a quick idea, unrefined, but there simply has to be a way to include "lingua francas" in the game.

SOME languages should be a way to communicate with a large number of foreigners... Latin, Greek, Arabic... Languages that are trans-national, that would give diplomacy bonuses
A Lingua Franca system should also be implemented into the game yeah
 
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Will bilingual areas (already before and during the Viking age) like Estonia & South-Western Finland, have characters who already speak Norse? As they were an integral part of the Norse world in all CK start dates then it wouldn't make sense for them to start learning it from scratch.
Archaeologically and culturally speaking (leaving language aside), most of Estonia (and Finnic areas of Latvia) + south-western Finland were an integral part of the Norse world and in most cases it is almost impossible to distinguish Viking Age artefacts produced in Estonia or Eastern Scandinavia as they were in the same culture zone although their native languages were different.
 
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No, but if you try to learn the language of someone sharing your culture's heritage, you'll get a bonus. A lot of very similar languages are grouped together regardless (see the culture DevDiaries).

So, Estonians and Finns will have a bonus if learning Norse? Cool, it works both ways I guess?
 

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Will bilingual areas (already before and during the Viking age) like Estonia & South-Western Finland, have characters who already speak Norse? As they were an integral part of the Norse world in all CK start dates then it wouldn't make sense for them to start learning it from scratch.
Archaeologically and culturally speaking (leaving language aside), most of Estonia (and Finnic areas of Latvia) + south-western Finland were an integral part of the Norse world and in most cases it is almost impossible to distinguish Viking Age artefacts produced in Estonia or Eastern Scandinavia as they were in the same culture zone although their native languages were different.
Maybe some cultures would have Secondary Language that characters could learn if they do well enough in their studies? Or some languages being especially prominent in some areas would be known by characters there...

It seems we keep coming back to Lingua Franca PDX ;)
 
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Maybe some cultures would have Secondary Language that characters could learn if they do well enough in their studies? Or some languages being especially prominent in some areas would be known by characters there...

It seems we keep coming back to Lingua Franca PDX ;)
Yeah, that would possibly be a nice concept to implement. Most of Estonia, Finnic areas of Latvia and South-Western Finland were intertwined with Eastern Scandinavian because of a common (seafaring) culture. It isn't really realistic that they wouldn't speak Norse and the Eastern Scandinavians very likely spoke some Finnic language as well (most likely some form of Estonian as in the Viking Age, the Finnic migration to Finland from the proto-Finnic Estonian areas was still ongoing).
 

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and the Eastern Scandinavians very likely spoke some Finnic language as well (most likely some form of Estonian as in the Viking Age, the Finnic migration to Finland from the proto-Finnic Estonian areas was still ongoing).
I really hope the game doesn't try to make Finnish and Estonian separate languages...
no. i can tell you that if you don't use it, you lose it.
You snooze, you lose :D
Lechitic and East Slavic, as you categorised them would be mutually intelligible dialects and not different languages. Especially in 867.
This.
Glossolalia/aphasia events?
Most types of aphasia affect all linguistic abilities.
 
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I really hope the game doesn't try to make Finnish and Estonian separate languages...
Had Finnish and Estonian not diverged yet? I don't know much about the history of the Finnic languages, although I guess I had just assumed they had already diverged into separate languages by the medieval period. I'm actually not even sure how similar they are now, are they mutually intelligible?
 

es333

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Had Finnish and Estonian not diverged yet? I don't know much about the history of the Finnic languages, although I guess I had just assumed they had already diverged into separate languages by the medieval period. I'm actually not even sure how similar they are now, are they mutually intelligible?

Short answer - not much really, the people who will become Finns have only just started settling the northern shore of the gulf (although there were a lot of southern Estonian dialects such as Seto that by that time can be argued to have diverged more). For long answer ask @es333.

The last wave of Finnic expansion started around 400AD from the Proto-Finnic area of Northern-Estonia (which was also the source of previous expansion waves because of very favourable farming conditions and overpopulation) and that expansion lasted until the Estonians were defeated by a joint coalition of Northern-European Christian nations in the 13th century.

There were some Finnics living on the southern and south-western shores of Finland before the last (started around 400AD) Finnic expansion wave but there were just a few thousand of them. Around the Viking Age, Finnic seafarers from the proto-area in Estonia had settled Southern- and South-Western Finland and the numbers were likely over 10 000 by then but Finns weren't separate from the core proto-Finnics of Estonia yet and they definitely had not (linguistically) diverged from the Estonians (proto-Finnics) who were the source of the expansion. In the CK time frame, (entire) Finland had a small population which was ~5 times smaller than the population of (geographically) smaller Estonia. Also, a large part of Finland was still Sami as the Finnics who had arrived from Estonia hadn't expanded that much yet.
Talking about the Finnic expansion, it is quite fascinating that the linguistic, genetic and archaeological evidence line up in a logical manner and experts of those 3 fields have agreed on this theory which became known to the wider public in the last 6 years and is now the main accepted theory.

I'll add a map (depicting the 9th century/Viking Age start date) made by the most renowned expert on the Eastern Baltic region in the Viking Age, Marika Mägi. It shows the borders between cultures:
Areas inhabited by Finnics in the 9th century.png
 
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SMiki Lorebringer

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what on Earth is Lechitic if it isn't proto-Polish on steroids?
It's a subgroup of West Slavic, consisting of dialects of Polish, Pomeranian, Silesian etc – all of which tend to be mutually intelligible with each other even today. Which brings me to the following issue:
View attachment 764593
[Image of someone learning your language]
Seeing that Telugu or High German are treated as single languages instead of language categories, I'd argue that the same should be done with West Slavic – Czech and Polish were mutually intelligible well into the early modern period, and it isn't that hard to communicate between them even today.

You could go even further and have just a single Slavic language, but I understand this might be the case where gameplay balance precedes historical accuracy (having all Slavic cultures speak a single language might make playing them too easy). But dividing it more than West/East/South is an overkill for the time period.
 
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ScarletCrow

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How about instead of setting an arbitrary foreign language limit, implement a language proficiency level, from beginner, proficient, near-native, native. Children of parents who speak foreign language natively should automatically attain the language as well but in beginner level. Language lessons from someone who doesn't speak the language natively can only bring you to the proficient level, but if the tutor is a native speaker, they can teach you up to the near-native level. Native level can only be attained if you live in a foreign speaking land for more than 10 years or so, or if you spend your childhood there. At this level, you basically absorb the language as one of your mother tongue. If you don't live in a foreign speaking land, and if you have no one in your court who speaks a particular language, have the proficiency level drifts toward "proficient" level, but no lower than that. Because it's kind of strange for someone to completely forget a language they once mastered. Imagine a CRUSADING English prince living in the middle east for half his life, interacting with local people and attain perfect Arabic. And after he goes back to England, and wanting to marry a French princess, decides he need to forget all about the Arabic language he has learnt, just because he wants to write her poetry in French? Why? Even if he's not a scholar, and only receives martial education all his life, no one should have to "unlearn" something in order to learn another. Just have his skills and talents deteriorate naturally if not used.

Gameplay wise, beginner level is basically useless, it's there to just give the character an advantage in learning not from zero. With proficient level, you can read and understand what foreign rulers are speaking, so you get a little bonus in intrigue against people with that particular language, I suppose. To represent that people cannot easily speak behind your back inside a foreign court. Near-native and native will give you bonus to diplomacy in addition to the intrigue bonus. And native level will also give you another bonus of intrigue, because I imagine if they can speak the language flawlessly without any accent, they can just blend inside common people, if they have to.

With that, I cannot help to wonder if the intrigue system will be expanded too. Instead of just one spymaster, how amazing if you can plant little birds across many courts to seek out hidden secrets. And for that, you need people who can speak the language natively, I suppose. A grand Carolingian court who can impress people across the continent will surely have a more diverse people who can speak many languages. So you can plant a lot more birds compared to an isolated Icelandic petty king with much less impressive court.
 
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bodhi

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Does anyone know: will vassals who do not share the same culture as their liege finally be able to convert counties to their own culture? Or are we still going to be left in the cultural homogeny/blobbing era? I only really need a feudal contract option titled: "Cultural Freedom", or somesuch..
 
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