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CK3 Dev Diary #67 - A View to a Map

Greetings!

The team is slowly coming back together after a well deserved summer vacation. Today, let’s have a look at what we’ve been doing to the culture setup and some small scale map tweaks. Most of the work we’ve spent on cultures has naturally gone into the cultural overhaul itself, but we have made some general improvements as well, most notably over in India.

Starting with a small culture addition in southern Europe, and that some of you keen eyed readers noticed back in a previous dev diary, we’ve added back a fan favorite from CK2; Carantanian. The culture is quite extensive on game start and covers most of south-eastern Bavaria. From a historical point of view, the culture is of a west slavic origin, but as they got cut off from their ancestral brethren in the Carpathian Basin, they became gradually closer to the south slavic peoples. We represent this by Carantanian having a West Slavic Heritage, but speaking a South Slavic Language.

01_carantanian.jpg

[Image of Carantanian culture]

Next, I’ll hand it over to our local India expert, @Trin Tragula, to talk about (you guessed it) India!

Indian Culture Changes
The culture rework has been a good opportunity to rework the cultures in India a bit. The current setup here is one we inherited from Crusader Kings 2 and it was in some ways not entirely appropriate for our era. To better reflect the diversity of the subcontinent we have added two new cultures, changed the old ones a bit and also added a great number of potential culture names for when the large starting cultures diverge.

First of all we have gotten rid of Hindustani culture, and two new cultures have been broken away from what it used to cover in the south. The core part of the culture covers the Gangetic plain, and is now known as Kannauji after the Imperial city of Kannauj (Kanyakubja) which was the main prize of the region and often gave its name to it.

Hindustani itself is still around in a way, as a possible name for a cultural hybrid between an Iranian or Turkic culture with one of the north indian cultures.

02_cultures_in_india.jpg

[Image of the cultures in northern India]

Starting in the central parts of India the newly added Gond culture has been carved out of areas that were previously Hindustani, Marathi or Oriya. In 1066 most Gond counties are under the control of the Cedi kingdom and many of these counties are now also tribal at start. This culture covers a region that was in an odd place in the old setup, at the border of several cultures but not quite belonging to either of them.

03_gond.jpg

[Image of the Gond culture]

Covering the Malwa plateau as well as some of the adjacent regions that were previously considered Hindustani. This new culture shares a language with the Rajasthani and Gujarati cultures, Gurjar Apabhramsa. The existing Rajput culture has been renamed to Rajasthani (since Rajput as a cultural distinction does not really fit our start date) and Assamese is now known as Kamrupi.

04_malvi.jpg

[Image of the Malvi culture]

Indian History and Title Improvements
While looking over the subcontinent it was also clear that in some areas the title setup was also better suited for the early modern era, rather than the medieval era around Crusader Kings III start dates. A number of baronies have been renamed and reorganized into new counties, and a number of new vassals have been scripted in, especially for the 1066 start.
The starting presumptions about who controlled what in 1066 have also been revisited to bring things better in line with history and create a more interesting start. There are now more starting characters, both independent and vassals, and most kings will no longer start above their domain limit.

Some things like the crisis of the Chola empire should also be a bit better represented in the initial setup, with strong and somewhat unruly Pandya vassals, a much stronger Lankan revolt and the Chera Raja now independent (with his historical vassals to support him). You can now also play as the future king, Kulottunga.
There are also other, minor changes, such as revisiting the extent of cultures like Kashmiri, and Telugu, and assigning a number of tribal counties in the eastern-central part of the subcontinent.

05_sinhalese_rebellion.jpg

[Image of the Sinhalese rebellion in 1066]

That concludes today’s dev diary. Until next time!
 
I still think the culture converting & religion changing is sick in CK3.
The promote culture mission start at zero progress and after 5 years, all the guys in country, 100% become a different culture.
ONLY FIVE yrs, too easy to change the culture.
And the annoying thing is: If we stop promoting, the progress RESET to ZERO.
The religion changing progress has the same problem.
Only 2 results for the chaplain mission: 100% converted and reset as 0%.

For example, in my recently game, My character has the different religion with the liege.
The liege always converted the religion on my realms, he kept doing that things for over 20 yrs.
Every 5 yrs, one of my realm would change the religion as the liege's.
I can only find this issue when the liege's chaplain finished the converting religion mission and a new religion populist faction started to against my rule.
No notice tip popup for the shxt thing happened. And I had to changing the religion back by the chaplain's mission for another 5 yrs.
What the x.

Compare with the Total War the Shogun 2, a game released at 2011, 2 yrs before ck2.
And also, it only has 3 main stream religion.
It had already had the dynamic religion promoting progress bar
The religion could effect the neighborhood county, if different and 'higher fever' in that game.
And the religion converting progress won't reset to zero, if the monk leave the country and progress doesn't reach 100%.

Maybe we won't have the pie chart for the religion and culture percentage of counties, too difficult to the ck.
The game is still a game.
 
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Yeah, I'll counter that. I'm not looking to understand every aspect of Indian society, but I like to roleplay when I play. Because purely gameplay based challenges kinda get boring after 1k hours. And I like to know a little bit about the people I play as.

Also what if I just want to learn, and read a book?
Hey, whatever you say. But do you know what is the actual problem and a bit of everything? There isn't a good book that covers authentically (or good English translations).

You can find more about the relatively modern history, a lot actually but this period is mostly covered in tablets, manuscripts and etc (a lot of it is written in classical Tamil or Sanskrit, even if you get your hands on it, just saying)
 
You already had me at Carantanian. Also, I like how you dealt with them by giving them West Slavic heritage but South Slavic language. I recall there was a thread some ~2 months back about which group of Slavs they belonged to, so this seems like a nice compromise. Personally I'd consider extending their range in the earlier starting date by a few additional counties. At the time there were Slavs living in Gorz to the south or near Salzburg to the north of what we see on the picture and given the area, it'd make sense for them to also be Carantanians or at least some offshoot. But even without it it looks pretty great.
 
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Nice changes. Is there a Dalmatian culture in the Eastern Adriatic shore? Current setup has a Greek culture in some counties, which serve as a placeholder anyway. Remember, Dalmatian language went extinct only in 1898.
they where not majority in counties but in some cities they where there where more Slavs that dalmatians around the cites tho there should be event about south slav migration to dalmacita
 
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"The game is more meaty than CK2-without-DLCs ever was. People have just raised their expectations unreasonably."
why do you not compare ck2 and ck3 will all dlc ck2 is still better game in my opinion immersions is very well done you get bored playing ck3 since there are almost no good events you cant even immerse into a character ck3 i still bare bones i really hate that paradox wont drop their greedy selling practices i was really hoping that that ck3 would get released with all ck2 content but no tbh its not even worth buying the dlcs it will cost more than a rent in my country
 
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"People" also often fail to realize that with with improvements in tech, the complexity of development also tends to increase. I've seen it said that modern game development is more complicated than rocket science, and I don't doubt that a bit.
That doesn't change the expectations of the public. Frankly, I would have been perfectly ok if the graphics side of things was what suffered more than the fact that the UI and the gameplay are what did. Getting a better looking game that is completely uninteresting is less attractive to me than getting a game with great gameplay and a dull dated looking set of graphics.

And complexity is a very real limit to how much can be done in a given time frame.
And here is the exact problem, the time frame. The company wants to release the game as soon as possible in order to start seeing the revenue, regardless of whether it is actually complete or not. Game software along with all other software is being pushed by the wants and desires of the business side of things, where short term gains have supplanted long term customer satisfaction as the primary goal.

Would you be satisfied with a new model of a car that looked more sporty and got better fuel mileage but that didn't have power steering or air conditioning like the previous year's model? Or worse yet, didn't drive half the time?

A large part of the responsibility for this situation lies at our ( the customers ) feet. We continue to accept this sort of behavior from companies, and continue to buy their products, rather than boycotting them and finding some other place to spend our entertainment budgets.
 
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Good to see that India, a region that just sort of felt tacked on in CKII, is getting some love.

I'm not much of an India player, but it's always good to see additional depth and flavor being added to the game.
 
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why do you not compare ck2 and ck3 will all dlc ck2 is still better game in my opinion immersions is very well done you get bored playing ck3 since there are almost no good events you cant even immerse into a character ck3 i still bare bones i really hate that paradox wont drop their greedy selling practices i was really hoping that that ck3 would get released with all ck2 content but no tbh its not even worth buying the dlcs it will cost more than a rent in my country
I'm curious how you could expect the amount of content that was in CK2 (6 years from release of CK2 and release of the last DLC, not counting the time to develop CK2 itself) could be put into vanilla CK3 and still have a reasonable release date. I do prefer games that don't have tons of DLCs, however CK is such a tremendously large game that to do so would be pretty difficult unless you don't care to make money for a long time while waiting to develop every possible thing. Just because something was in CK2 doesn't mean it's copy/paste into CK3. It requires developing it again, if not from scratch, at least with a fairly significant percentage of work in many cases because the game isn't the same even if the general mechanics are. Not to mention they are redoing many of the things from CK2 instead of using them as they were in an effort to improve upon the mistakes or weaknesses in how things were done in CK2, so that means even more work.

I see these posts so often and I just have to shake my head. CK2 with all expansions (but not all the flavor DLC) can often be purchased for around $80. We don't yet know how much the entire CK3 will be and obviously you spend more if you buy everything at release instead of waiting until everything can be purchased as a package, but just consider with CK2 how many hours of gameplay you get out of it and compare it to pretty much any other game. Compare the cost per hour of CK2 with others you play and this game, even with all DLC and even if you paid full price for all of it, will be significantly cheaper than any other game you play (assuming you've played CK2 as much as most people who are here). Few games give as many hours of playability for the cost. Personally, I see more of an issue with games selling single pieces of cosmetic clothing for $1 than seeing an expansion for $15 or $30, especially if they also offer a significant portion of the expansion for free for those who don't want to pay for the expansion's full set of features.
 
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CK II with all it's buzz barely manages to amount any significant player count now. And that's usually only because there are people playing one of the overhaul mods - which will eventually be ported to CK3 anyhow.

CK3 is breath of fresh air, with a better foundation and promise. CK2 is an old, overused horse with outdated and impractical UI, flawed complexity and after a time of playing it, you start to hit more shortcomings of it, then actually awe in the vast amount 6 years of development of features
 
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I love these changes so far. Though I hope/wish thered also be a major overhaul to africa, especially north africa, in my opinion that region deserves more love. E.g. Events like the rise of the almohades in the 12th century, or the banu hilal invading etc etc
 
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Anybody have recommendations for a book to learn more about the history of the region at this time period? I've always been hesitant to play in India because I know very little of its history, and I'd love to change that.

I honestly don't understand why people who want to learn more about some historical period/region won't just do what I do and use for it... you know this little indie invention... called the Internet ;) There is Wikipedia (it is not entirely reliable and requires some critical caution/confirmation but it's still a great source of basic overall knowledge), there are Youtube channels about world history in general and specifically Indian that cover medieval India, that are websites, there are free articles... Why won't you just google "medieval India" and start reading? ;)

This article for example lists and summarizes the most important "classical" (non - Muslim) empires, kingdoms and cultures of India between 200 BC and 1200 AD


1200 AD is the date when Islamic invasions finally break through and is a somewhat separate period (the most important is the history of Delhi Sultanate)

You can do it!
 
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I honestly don't understand why people who want to learn more about some historical period/region won't just do what I do and use for it... you know this little indie invention... called the Internet ;)
Counterpoint: Books gather all the information you need into a single volume, doing away with all the digging around by having someone else do it for you. More importantly, academic books at least are far more reliable than anything you're likely to find in Wikipedia or YouTube. If you know nothing about the subject matter to begin with, you certainly are not equipped to sift unreliable information from the good stuff. And finally, some people just prefer to read physical books rather than burn their eyes away staring at a screen even more than they usually do.

In short, books are awesome. I certainly hope all the game's research isn't getting done through Google.
 
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CK3 Dev Diary #67 - A View to a Map

Greetings!

The team is slowly coming back together after a well deserved summer vacation. Today, let’s have a look at what we’ve been doing to the culture setup and some small scale map tweaks. Most of the work we’ve spent on cultures has naturally gone into the cultural overhaul itself, but we have made some general improvements as well, most notably over in India.

Starting with a small culture addition in southern Europe, and that some of you keen eyed readers noticed back in a previous dev diary, we’ve added back a fan favorite from CK2; Carantanian. The culture is quite extensive on game start and covers most of south-eastern Bavaria. From a historical point of view, the culture is of a west slavic origin, but as they got cut off from their ancestral brethren in the Carpathian Basin, they became gradually closer to the south slavic peoples. We represent this by Carantanian having a West Slavic Heritage, but speaking a South Slavic Language.

View attachment 745274
[Image of Carantanian culture]

Next, I’ll hand it over to our local India expert, @Trin Tragula, to talk about (you guessed it) India!

Indian Culture Changes
The culture rework has been a good opportunity to rework the cultures in India a bit. The current setup here is one we inherited from Crusader Kings 2 and it was in some ways not entirely appropriate for our era. To better reflect the diversity of the subcontinent we have added two new cultures, changed the old ones a bit and also added a great number of potential culture names for when the large starting cultures diverge.

First of all we have gotten rid of Hindustani culture, and two new cultures have been broken away from what it used to cover in the south. The core part of the culture covers the Gangetic plain, and is now known as Kannauji after the Imperial city of Kannauj (Kanyakubja) which was the main prize of the region and often gave its name to it.

Hindustani itself is still around in a way, as a possible name for a cultural hybrid between an Iranian or Turkic culture with one of the north indian cultures.

View attachment 745275
[Image of the cultures in northern India]

Starting in the central parts of India the newly added Gond culture has been carved out of areas that were previously Hindustani, Marathi or Oriya. In 1066 most Gond counties are under the control of the Cedi kingdom and many of these counties are now also tribal at start. This culture covers a region that was in an odd place in the old setup, at the border of several cultures but not quite belonging to either of them.

View attachment 745276
[Image of the Gond culture]

Covering the Malwa plateau as well as some of the adjacent regions that were previously considered Hindustani. This new culture shares a language with the Rajasthani and Gujarati cultures, Gurjar Apabhramsa. The existing Rajput culture has been renamed to Rajasthani (since Rajput as a cultural distinction does not really fit our start date) and Assamese is now known as Kamrupi.

View attachment 745277
[Image of the Malvi culture]

Indian History and Title Improvements
While looking over the subcontinent it was also clear that in some areas the title setup was also better suited for the early modern era, rather than the medieval era around Crusader Kings III start dates. A number of baronies have been renamed and reorganized into new counties, and a number of new vassals have been scripted in, especially for the 1066 start.
The starting presumptions about who controlled what in 1066 have also been revisited to bring things better in line with history and create a more interesting start. There are now more starting characters, both independent and vassals, and most kings will no longer start above their domain limit.

Some things like the crisis of the Chola empire should also be a bit better represented in the initial setup, with strong and somewhat unruly Pandya vassals, a much stronger Lankan revolt and the Chera Raja now independent (with his historical vassals to support him). You can now also play as the future king, Kulottunga.
There are also other, minor changes, such as revisiting the extent of cultures like Kashmiri, and Telugu, and assigning a number of tribal counties in the eastern-central part of the subcontinent.

View attachment 745278
[Image of the Sinhalese rebellion in 1066]

That concludes today’s dev diary. Until next time!
i wonder what the achievements will be like for this dlc also can we put a horse in our court pls that will be funny.
 
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i wonder what the achievements will be like for this dlc also can we put a horse in our court pls that will be funny.
Would feel like an overdone meme at that point. I wouldn't mind having an easter egg in CK3 in which a lunatic ruler gettin the warhorse event gets an opportunity to name his warhorse glitterhoof. But more than that.... it would be better if ck3 had it's own stuff.
 
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You are kidding right? People expect things to get better in the tech world with time, not to stay the same or regress.
1) You don't seem to understand the difference between tech and content.
2)It got better. Much better than one could reasonably hope. They basically included the entirety of Old Gods and bigger part of Conclave content-wise.
 
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i wonder what the achievements will be like for this dlc also can we put a horse in our court pls that will be funny.
Would feel like an overdone meme at that point. I wouldn't mind having an easter egg in CK3 in which a lunatic ruler gettin the warhorse event gets an opportunity to name his warhorse glitterhoof. But more than that.... it would be better if ck3 had it's own stuff.
How about this? :)
Stable as a Horse - Glitterhoof v2.0.jpg




1) You don't seem to understand the difference between tech and content.
2)It got better. Much better than one could reasonably hope. They basically included the entirety of Old Gods and bigger part of Conclave content-wise.
Agree that they included most of TOG, but not Conclave. The council mechanics from Conclave are missing, and only a fraction of the law system it introduced has been preserved (mainly in the form of feudal contracts, which are unavailable to clan and other governments).
 
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I honestly don't understand why people who want to learn more about some historical period/region won't just do what I do and use for it... you know this little indie invention... called the Internet ;) There is Wikipedia (it is not entirely reliable and requires some critical caution/confirmation but it's still a great source of basic overall knowledge), there are Youtube channels about world history in general and specifically Indian that cover medieval India, that are websites, there are free articles... Why won't you just google "medieval India" and start reading? ;)

This article for example lists and summarizes the most important "classical" (non - Muslim) empires, kingdoms and cultures of India between 200 BC and 1200 AD


1200 AD is the date when Islamic invasions finally break through and is a somewhat separate period (the most important is the history of Delhi Sultanate)

You can do it!
Hey, I've been a bit disheartened by some responses to my reply here. I understand and at least appreciate your point, but it felt a bit condescending. I like to read longer form stuff. Books are really fun for me to read and stuff like reading on Wikipedia is just a bit too short form, and often too dry.

Just remember it's another person on the end who's a bit sad about how some people take umbridge with his joy of books.
 
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why do you not compare ck2 and ck3 will all dlc ck2 is still better game in my opinion immersions is very well done you get bored playing ck3 since there are almost no good events you cant even immerse into a character ck3 i still bare bones i really hate that paradox wont drop their greedy selling practices i was really hoping that that ck3 would get released with all ck2 content but no tbh its not even worth buying the dlcs it will cost more than a rent in my country
Or they could add more counties to represent the areas inhabited by Slavic migrants and the areas inhabited by local Dalmatian/Latin speakers. Fiume and Trieste for example were separately administrated in AustroHungarian times as sort of "free cities", instead of being incorpored into other administrative units.

I understand this happened 1000 years before A-H was a thing, but I think my point stands.