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CK3 Dev Diary #33 - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

Hello everyone and welcome to the 33rd CK3 Dev Diary!

I’m Matthew, one of the Programmers on the CK3 team, and today I am going to talk to you about the overhaul we’ve done to Feudal Contracts since Dev Diary 17.

A quick refresher on what Contracts are: every vassal above baron tier has an individual contract between them and their liege which affects how much the vassal gives to the liege in terms of tax and levies in exchange for the liege’s protection. In the case of Feudal vassals, this contract can be renegotiated.

We were not fully content with the initial implementation of this setup as it did not help facilitate the drama and storytelling of the deals made between a vassal and their liege and the disagreements that could arise from that. This was a view shared among the community as well which reinforced our desire to give this feature another look, so a couple of our designers and I gave it an overhaul.

The Contract
You may have seen screenshots or videos of this system in some of the media released from our press events but I’m gonna take you through the new system step by step, so without further ado here is the new interface you’ll see when you interact with a vassal’s feudal contract.

ContractView.png

[Feudal contract negotiation screen]

As you can see there are a lot more options now to tailor the contract.

Going from top to bottom you can see that we have split the base tax and levy obligations into two separate tracks each now with five options. These are the core base of how much taxes and levies are given to the liege, the lower they are the more your vassal will like you, of course, and the higher they are the less content they will be.
When negotiating a new deal you can only move to adjacent levels of the tax and levy obligations.

Below that we have what we call the “Fine Print” options. These fine options are unlocked via various innovations and provide various modifications to the contract.
The first row being the Special Contract options of Scutage, March, and Palatinate which are available for vassals that are Dukes or Kings.

Scutage.png

[Effects of scutage]

March.png

[Effects of march]

Palatinate.png

[Effects of palatinate]

At the bottom we have the rest of the Fine Print options available, these are things like guaranteeing your vassal a spot on the council or granting them coinage rights. Some options are only shown if the vassal meets specific conditions, for example if the vassal is of a different faith to the liege. In such a case the “Religious Protection” gives them special rights to practice their faith without risk of the liege demanding their conversion or converting the faith of their provinces.

The Negotiation
When negotiating the contract a max of three changes may be made. We experimented with different values and this felt like it wasn’t too limiting whilst also letting you too wildly change your contract in one go.

With the new obligations that can be changed and enacted this allows you to negotiate a more interesting deal. For example, you as the liege may want to increase the amount of taxes your vassal gives you, but just doing that alone will be viewed as unfair by the vassal and increase your tyranny.

NegotiationTyranny.png

[a contract proposal giving tyranny]

So if you don’t want to take that tyranny hit then you need to look at what changes you can propose that the vassal will want, so in exchange for these increased taxes you could guarantee your vassal a spot on the council meaning you can now enact this deal without being viewed as a tyrant.

NegotiationFair.png

[a contract proposal with a fair trade]

Alternatively, if you have a hook on your vassal then you can use that hook to count as one free change in favour of the vassal, so you can use your hook and get those higher taxes without having to give any other concessions and not be viewed as a tyrant. Blackmailing people is surprisingly effective.

NegotiationHook.png

[a contract proposal using a hook to avoid tyranny]

It is worth mentioning that even if you propose a “fair” trade that does not give you tyranny this does not mean that the vassal will be perfectly content. There is an opinion change tied to each obligation and what status it is in, vassals will tend to dislike paying more and like paying less, and this opinion modifier will be present in the vassal’s view of their liege.

The vassal themselves can of course also negotiate the contract, they have the added restriction that they must offer their liege an even trade. So they cannot ask to pay lower taxes without using either a hook or agreeing to give the liege something they would want, be that giving more levies, agreeing to stay with only partition succession, or giving up a benefit they have previously been given such as that guaranteed council spot.

Some vassals start with contracts different to the default, in the Holy Roman Empire all vassals start with low taxes and levies to represent the internal state and the lower amount of control the Emperor was exerting over their vassals at the time.

We really wanted the interface to make this feel like an actual paper contract being signed between the liege and the vassal, thankfully we had this beautiful parchment background and wax seal shader lying around that helped spice it up.

Modding Contracts
All of these different obligations, their effects, how the AI uses them, and how they are shown in the UI is controlled in the script files so you can mod in or change existing obligations to your heart’s content.

Code:
religious_rights = {
    display_mode = checkbox

    is_shown = {

        NOT = {

            scope:vassal.faith = scope:liege.faith

        }

    }

    obligation_levels = {

        religious_rights_none = {

            default = yes

            

            ai_liege_desire = @ai_standard_liege_desire

            ai_vassal_desire = 0

        }

        religious_rights_protected = {

            is_valid = {

                NOT = {

                    scope:vassal.faith = scope:liege.faith

                }

            }

            parent = religious_rights_none

            

            vassal_opinion = 5

            

            vassal_modifier = {

                county_opinion_add = 5

            }

            

            flag = religiously_protected

            

            ai_liege_desire = 0

            ai_vassal_desire = 10

        }

    }
}
Here we have the script database entry for the religious protection obligation type, it demonstrates the various options and should be fairly self explanatory in its naming of the options.

I hope you’ve all enjoyed this dev diary and are excited for the new Feudal Contracts and the more options and interactions they can provide between vassals and lieges!

We look forward to seeing you next week, in the meanwhile if you want to chat more then I highly recommend joining our CK Discord Server as well!

Pets of the Dev Team
On the Crusader Kings 3 team we are of course very big fans of animals and pets of all kinds. So I thought to cap off this dev diary, and give you all some much needed cuteness overload during these difficult times in the world, I'd collect a bunch of pictures of all our wonderful pets, fluffy or otherwise!

Pet17.JPG

Pet1.png
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Pet3.png
Pet4.png
Pet5.png
Pet6.png
Pet7.png
Pet8.png
Pet9.png
Pet10.png
Pet11.png
Pet12.png
Pet13.png
Pet14.png
Pet15.png

Pet16.JPG
 
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This doesn't cover the often requested Normandy question as that was cause by conquest not direct inheritance.

But there are still weird problems that can crop up when a title has multiple lieges even if limited to inheritance. If a title keeps being inherited between different realms it could end up with a lot of different lieges. What mechanisms are there for removing lieges from a title? What determines who the primary liege of a title is and can that change? Can I freely switch my primary title to change which title titles I gain through inheritance, conquests, and creatation go to? If I can, then I can probably siphon titlse from one lord to another if I want to. If I can't then the player's agency is being limited which probably would hurt roleplaying. What happens when the same character is the holder of the two tile your title is a vassal to, do you keep the two sets of contract? If you don't keep both which do you keep (remember the two contracts might be both to non-primary lieges)? Does this happen at all levels, is the bordergore of inheritance inside a realm also part of a web of vassal contracts? How do you show concisely show this mess of contracts to the player, especially when you can get circular vassalage where two rulers are both lieges and vassals to the other? And what is being gained by all of this, just some siphoning of levies and tax money?

Now this is not to say you are wrong or your suggestion is at all bad (I honestly don't really know the best way to resolve this). I personally feel you are right that a more limited approach is the most likely way to see multiple lieges in CK3. But given how big a can of worms multiple lieges is, I think there are a lot of questions that will still need to be answered even when limiting the scope. And any proposal will have to try to limit the potential problems without limiting the potential benefits.
Assuming for now that only dukes and higher can have multiple lieges.

I think the way you can maybe handle the Normandy situation would be if a vassal conquering a title higher than their liege, their old titles that are de jure vassals of that liege keep that liege. So William would be king of England, but his Normandy lands would keep their vassal contract to the king of France. He has to personally keep the title of Normandy in order to retain control of that land or give it to another duke of England. If he turns it over to a count or landless character, he completely loses control of that land as he'd no longer have a vassal contract with that character.

As for multiple chains of inheritance, since the contract is tied to the title it shouldn't matter. Until x realm either wins or loses a war to end the dual vassalage, duchy y will keep its vassal contract in perpetuity. It can look like a mess for a player if say a duke has four different titles that are vassals to four different kings, but the game can likely handle it just fine.

For changing primary title, I'd say that that should not be allowed if doing so would change your primary liege. Just as a pragmatic thing to avoid problems. Civil wars should similarly not be able to change your primary liege.

.

Actually this conversation made me realize that there's a bigger problem with these contracts and that's with normal vassal inheritance. It can completely screw with your contracts if x land that has all the autonomy abruptly inherits y lands that has no autonomy and max obligations, erasing one of the contracts. Either way that goes is bad.
 
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Are there any sound effects associated with this game feature?

I would like to hear my vassals make a sound or say something based on how I interact with them.
 
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But John of Gaunt was appointed duke of Aquitaine by Richard II (John's nephew) and he continued to be treated as a part of the kingdom of England for the rest of John's life. The kings of England multiple times handed the duchy of Aquitaine and Normandy out to other members of the family without the area leaving their control.

Another thing that comes to mind for what you are describing is when Edward II gave the title of Aquitaine to his son Edward III so his son could instead pay homage to the king of France. But due to some other drama, that didn't resolve the conflict, but sparked war. But I don't think Edward III going to pay homage to the French King was viewed as meaning he would no longer be under his father's rule.

Aquitaine was never handed out to anyone as a hereditary title. John of Gaunt's role in Aquitaine is closer to being a viceroy than an ordinary lord in CK terms. Incidentally, John of Gaunt was also Duke of Lancaster. The King of England was his liege for the lands he held in England.

Aquitaine was still a vassal of France. It behaves more like an independent realm because it was in the process of revolting against its liege. Trying to change its de jure status was a major English goal.

Edward III was never in any serious sense granted a duchy by his father. The whole thing was a show to arrive at some acceptable compromise about homage.
 
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I have to agree with the devs that trying to simulate multiple lieges, even in a limited capacity, would probably cause more trouble than its worth. To me, it falls into the same category as playable barons or adding China, namely too niche to be worth the technical headaches.
 
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I have to agree with the devs that trying to simulate multiple lieges, even in a limited capacity, would probably cause more trouble than its worth. To me, it falls into the same category as playable barons or adding China, namely too niche to be worth the technical headaches.
Absolutely. The time and energy required to model such a system would be prohibitively expensive and take a lot of time to develop, debug, and balance. I would rather have a good enough solution (which i think we have) than waste all their resources on a fringe problem and not have any to spend on advancing CK as a whole to level III.
 
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If the person dying is a higher tier than the heir then the heir gets the person's dying's contract. If they are the same tier or below then the heir if already landed will keep their current contract.
There is a problem with the current system: If a Count with a highly favorable contract with his liege (low taxes, high benefits etc.) inherits a higher tier title under the same liege with an unfavorable contract (high taxes, low benefits) the contract automatically shifts to the new one.

Instead, I think the character should always (regardless of the situation) either:
1. Keep their original contract as long as the liege doesn't change.
2. Get an option to choose which contract among the two they wish to keep.

Because the contracts in CK3 are between characters, not titles. And the Count already has a contract with the liege, and there is no reason for that contract to suddenly be void just because the Count inherited a Duke's titles who had a different contract with the same liege.
 
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There is a problem with the current system: If a Count with a highly favorable contract with his liege (low taxes, high benefits etc.) inherits a higher tier title under the same liege with an unfavorable contract (high taxes, low benefits) the contract automatically shifts to the new one.

Instead, I think the character should always (regardless of the situation) either:
1. Keep their original contract as long as the liege doesn't change.
2. Get an option to choose which contract among the two they wish to keep.

Because the contracts in CK3 are between characters, not titles. And the Count already has a contract with the liege, and there is no reason for that contract to suddenly be void just because the Count inherited a Duke's titles who had a different contract with the same liege.
If you take 1, then a character could never benefit from inheriting their family's "good" contract for a duchy if they already had a county. It would be exploitable by simply giving the heir to a duchy which already has a good contract a "bad" one (or even a standard one) for a county.

This is in some ways a bigger problem than going the other way around, as it is an exploit to erase the gains a given series of holders of a title might have already made.
 
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If you take 1, then a character could never benefit from inheriting their family's "good" contract for a duchy if they already had a county. It would be exploitable by simply giving the heir to a duchy which already has a good contract a "bad" one (or even a standard one) for a county.

This is in some ways a bigger problem than going the other way around, as it is an exploit to erase the gains a given series of holders of a title might have already made.
I agree that 1 is exploitable. So I suppose 2 is a solution which fixes both problems i.e. the inheritor decides which contract they wish to keep.
 
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I would also imagine that Iqta would have something like that, as the Muslims didn't use the obligations going both ways that characterized feudalism.
Iqta doesn't exist in CK3, it has been replaced with Clans.
 
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Looks very nice, and definitely a huge improvement. I have a few questions, though:

1) Will we be able to negotiate with a group of vassals at once, or copy-paste contracts? For example, it might be interesting for a King of England and Scotland to have a different set of obligations for his English and Scottish vassals, but it would be quite a hassle to have to change half a dozen contracts in the same fashion if, say, one wants their English vassals to provide more taxes and less levies.

2) When taking over a vassal from someone else, or vassalizing an independent ruler, what will the contract be set to? Will we immediately start negotiating?

3) When granting an unlanded courtier a title, will we be able to freely set the contract? I mean, i they don't like it, sure, we can find someone else...
 
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Love the idea with point 1. would also make sense in a historic sense, some nations had rules that didn't apply to others.

on pt2, presumably they would demand to keep "their rights", unless they were very unfavourable to the vassal, in which case they'd no doubt agitate for contract more in line with the other vassals in the realm.

on 3, presumably you would have a free hand, but if it was completely out of sync with all the other vassals, that would cause a stink. if all vassals only paid low taxes, except that one guy, then you'd expect him to be annoyed...
 
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How does the Council Right work? The vassal is automatically added to council in Advisor role? Or just that when a vassal asks for a position on the council, refusing would incur tyranny/bad rep?
 
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i can see the game doing it automatically, but id prefer if it was the latter, as it better reflects how sometimes Kings/Lords would ignore what they owed by right because they didn't want to. Plus it would make RPGing so much better. If the King hates this Duke, rather than the Duke sitting on the counsel because he has some paper says he should, King just ignores it, which leads to tensions... Or a King pissing off some powerful lord to put his mate on the council. these things really happened, so why not have in game!
 
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I love this, very exciting. Few things:

1) MORE SMALL PRINT please! that's what would add lots of flavour, and being able to acquire lots of those things would make playing a Vassal really cool. (I've said it of CK2, being a King was easier than being a Vassal. Being a King should be hard, a hard thing to play... but i digress)

2) is there a vassal contract 'baseline' that will exist in individual kingdoms? So if you have 10 Vassals lets say, and 7 of them pay low taxes (or have coinage rights, or some other privilege), will the other three be annoyed that don't? the idea is to create a sense of difference between legal customs within different realms as certain practices are either universal or alien, creating a sense of 'custom', and also means that centralisation is a hard and slow process, giving general conservatism/reactionary politics and vested interests. Likewise, would Vassal A not be pissed off if he pays high taxes, but everyone pays low?

3) whats the deal with contracts and tribes/muslims/africa/ERE/other parts of the world? This type of contract is quite specific to Western Europe in and around the period 1000-1400 (in broad broad terms). How will other traditions and cultures be represented.

4) will nature of contracts change throughout the ages. A contract in 1066 is not the same as in 1366 etc.
 
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This would be awesome. Like a fatction vassals band together and demand a renegotiation with the liege lord, if he refuses the go to war.
 
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didn't know Alfa Romeo was already doing business at the time !!
 
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@Faerillis: going from a duke to a margrave is a demotion. Now if a count would get a march contract, then it IMHO should become a margrave. An example of a duchy with march contract would be Austria, before it became an archduchy (promotion to palatinate contract).

Fair and navigating through all the actual tiers and nuances of European nobility is far from my personal area of expertise. But I still hope we can find an answer as to whether differing types of Special Contracts might have different titles. And also whether we'll be able to preserve a multicultural empire's flavour a little better than CK2 currently allows.
 
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